New chaos and you

[DarkHeretic]

Well i'm sure we all eagerly shot to the GW site this morning to look at the prices and pics of the latest update to chaos. So whats your thoughts. But please lets steer clear of the 'oh it sucks, the prices are way too high and i hate gw etc etc type posts'. Be critical if you wish but try to give reason.

 

So heres my thoughts and trust me i whimpered at about 6am this morning.

 

Codex.

A limited edition for the collectors. Well this is new and in many ways a nice treat if your a big game collector. I personally am not so i can pass this buy. At £50 i would have expected more than just silver edging, a negative of the main codex cover, page marker and letter. However if your a collector then i can see you going for this.

 

The main codex. My head rotated 360 a few times when i saw the price. £30. Ouch. But then i stood back and thought. I actually prefer the hardback wfb books over the flimsy paperbacks. It's a slight price nudge up on the wfb books and is double the cost of the older codex but being hard back its going to be a lot more survivable than the older one. This in truth means only one purchase of it instead of the usual 2-3-4 making it cheaper in the long run. Being slightly more than a wfb army book means i do expect a little more inside than the standard wfb books, so i will wait and see to reservethe final judgment.

 

Models.

New dual raptor/warp talons.

I am a massive fan of the dual kits and so glad that the leaked images of the talons have proven to be plastic rather than finecast. As an overall kit thats more bits in the bits box and a usefull choice for myself as a new starter.

 

Finecast choices.

I will wait until i can see these in person. My current experience of finecast mini's is something of a 50/50 success ration. Some stuff has been flawless and amazing, other stuff has been hideously misformed and only suitable as a spawn.

 

Helldrake.

Ok. This model sold me into chaos. I absolutely love dragons and this is just eye candy and absolute win for me. £45 made my wallet cry in advance of the paint it will suffer.

 

Warpfiend/mauler

Demon engines that aren't god specific (unless you want them to be) and aren't forgeworld. For the starter thats a big bonus. I personally love the models and i have seen a lot of 'omg their dinobots' type comments. In truth i dont think the paint scheme has done them any favours. Again this is a dual kit so lots more bitz for conversions etc. Im hoping the scale will be something close to the defiler bits wise as i can see some cool kitbashes going on.

 

 

Future releases.

For me the things missing from the first wave are.

Cultist squads

A proper aerial flyer (im thinking fighter/transport)

More god specific conversion bits.

 

But overall im happy with the effort by gw. As mention my wallet isnt, my lifes going to be dedicated to overtime to pay for my latest plasticrack fix fo sure. Im new to chaos and only own dark vengance, so theirs financial pain to be suffered whilst having the option to indulge myself in models i like.

[Amalricus]

I'm still making up my mind,

 

First of all, i like most of the new toys, i really dig the fiends, the new raptors and talons, the new HQ are ace ( i'm not that convinced by the walking library apostle though, might have to remove some of the parchment), i'm still a bit confused about the hell turkey ( let's say i might get one if the rules are nice), and, like the rest of the earthly population, i don't understand what GW did to the mutilator sculpts.

 

I'm confused about the lack of a proper set for cultists, the hellbrute, chosen, i feel the bikers, berzerkers, noise marines, and plain old chaos marines should / could use some new sculpts, and some love on the termies wouldn't be wasted.

 

Our special characters and havocs are really dated as well, and while i'm not really afraid for the plastic sets, the fact they were recently failcasted worries me just one bit, i guess i'll pass on the havocs, having one heavy weapon of each doesn't make any sense.

 

The fact that the "new" chaos battleforce consists of old plastic kits leaves some hope that some of those kits will be redone ( and the content seems consistent with the new org chart, so i quite like that)

 

I don't know what you think about the upgrade packs, but although they don't have the finecast banner and look very crude for display pictures of finecast products,some of them are described as being resin. is it technically possible to pour resin in old metal casts?

[Excessus]

Well, it's not like anyone will be using heaps of the stuff anyway! I know I'll be buying a flier, techie, champ and a fiend together with the codex. It's a one-time buy and I don't think it's that terrible. It's not like we'll ever have more than a few of them in our armies anyway so I think it's all good...

[Kol Saresk]

I don't know what you think about the upgrade packs, but although they don't have the finecast banner and look very crude for display pictures of finecast products,some of them are described as being resin. is it technically possible to pour resin in old metal casts?

I'm not too knowledgeable on the subject, all I can do is guess. Subtle Discord or someone else with more experience should be able to give a more concrete answer. But I'd say that they probably just remade the casts because these look like they have more detail to them than the original metal bits.

[Jonny Roxtar]

I am disapoint.

 

I have never been a big fan of the chaos thing. The DV set made me want a chaos army as soon as I saw the models( I tend to pick armies on how they look rather than how they perform). I got quite excited at the prospect even made up decal sheets for the army and sorted out some fluff for my DIY chaos guys.

 

Some of the new stuff is very nice. Notably the Raptors and the Dragon thing. Very in line with the direction the DV set was heading, and with a lot of work and even more money I could make my army using these.

 

The normal marines and havocs have always seemed pretty bland at best and downright badly cast at worst. So I was disapointed they remain untouched.

 

It has left me deflated and any enthusiasm I had has deserted me. I just wanna finish my Wolves now or go back to my Sallies.

 

Its not the end of the world and as I said I can do a lot with the new raptors but thats going to cost a lot to fix and tbh I dont have the urge at the moment or the cash.

[Biaz]

I agree with deusmex, its kinda disappointing. If they'd released the cultists, some sweet Chosen, and remodeled Abaddon I'd be all over that stuff when it came out. As it is I'm kinda just like 'meh', and the rules for Raptors and warp talons will have to be pretty good for me to bother buying them, I already have like 20 berzerkers for the CC role

[Lord Morgrim]

I like most of it...the Warpsmith has me seriously considering an Iron Warriors army and I think the raptors with a backpack swap and some wepaons swaps could be the basis for some nice plain old CSM troops.....no new Abbadon is disappointing but I am sure the cultists will be released in the next wave....I have thoughts of Word Bearers army with only cultists as troops and then Terminators.....looking forward to it all to be honest....

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

I know we shouldn't complain about price, but honestly? That's what has killed it for me.

£30 For the codex, I can get, but only just, and that combined with £45 for the dragon that looks half done.. I was excited about that, thinking how I cvould convert the head so it fits in better with my Thousand sons, but it looks like someone chopped off the back half.

The treatment of the Thousand sons and noise marines is bad as well, why didn't they do the same and just convert the metal bits to finecast whilst keeping the other bits you need to use them? They were able to do it with the brain dead zombie marines?

The new sorcerer model looks nice, though again a bit pricey, but would look awesome with a head swap with one of FW's armour sets.

[KingDeath]

The daemonengines and the flyer ar inferior to the Forgeworld variants, the new Finecast stuff is more expensive than the metal versions, the new characters are downright mediocre, no new resculpts for a lot of the old and downright ugly sets ( csm, bikers, Oblits, cult marines and more ) and only Raptors show at least a spark of the inspiration that lead to the DV set.

 

Erm, no thanks GW, keep your chaos release.

[Sception]

Initial impression: mild disappointment. These models are more expensive than ever, yet on average are a significant step down from the Necron and Dark Eldar releases. More obviously and most painfully, they're a significant step down from the Dark Vengeance chaos models.

 

Codex: I'll get it eventually. But damn, is it expensive. The cost of the codex alone will prevent me from buying other new models before Christmas, even if I wanted to.

 

Fiends: too bestial, not nearly daemonic enough. Look at the starter box dreadnought, with its asymmetrical details and silhouette, layered look, daemonic flesh and mechanical bits growing out of each other, random tentacles & eyeballs, little teeth on the trim, etc. Compared to the DV hellbrute, the fiends just feel blunt and toyish. They're not terrible, but they're not great by any stretch. I won't be picking one up any time soon, especially at the ridiculous price they're asking.

 

Drake: I've long been a defender of the 'daemonic mechanical dragon' as an awesome concept, but the execution is seriously disappointing. The wing detail is way too busy, the body is awkward and turkey-like, the neck too long and skinny, and the single engine exhaust makes the think look like it uses explosive farts as its primary means of propulsion. And, like the fiends, it doesn't look anything like as warped or daemonic as the starter box dreadnought. That'll teach me for actually being optimistic about something. It doesn't look as bad to me today as it did yesterday, and I still love the concept. I think I could fidget it a bit into something I'd like, but not at the crazy asking price. If it were in the same price range as the ork fighta or necron scythe I might have grudgingly picked one up eventually, but I won't be spending $75 on it.

 

Warpsmith: looks pretty good, but I don't trust all those skinny tentacles in failcast. I'd be converting my own regardless of price, but $30 for a single character's a bit much for me to stomach anyway.

 

Dark Apostle: The proportions are all weird, the model's way too busy, the 'standing on books' and 'covered in paper' gimmicks don't work for me either. You know what was a way better dark apostle model? The power maul champ from the Dark Vengeance box. I think I'll stick with that guy, maybe add a halo and a fancy base or something. if I had liked the model, I might have purchased it eventually, $20 for a single mini's a bit much, but I could see spending it on an HQ I particularly liked.

 

Sorcerer: This guy looks 12 years out of date. Seriously, the models style matches the aesthetic of the 3.5 or even 3.0 chaos models rather than the current ones. Compare him to the chosen champ and then compare him to the thousand sons sorcerer champ, and tell me which models he seems contemporary with. If anything, a sorcerer should be more warped and twisted. This model just isn't impressive or inspiring in any way - it looks more like a kitbash of aspiring champion pieces with a dark angels robed lower torso. As for the price, again, I could see dropping $20 on an HQ model I found to be particularly inspiring, but this isn't it.

 

Chosen Champion: Now here's an awesome looking model. This guy looks right at home with the fantastic starter box chosen squad. I wish the limited edition starter box had come with him instead of the DA chaplain. That said, while I'd consider dropping $20 on an HQ I found especially impressive, I don't think I'll be doing so for a unit champ.

 

Raptors: The high point of the new release, the raptors look awesome, and the warp talons look good. I think the latter would look better with the possessed winged packs, but I still like them as they are. Apart from the chosen champ and maybe the warpsmith, these are the only models in this release that live up to the amazing standard set by the starter box minis. As for price, well they're pricey, but not more than I expected or more than I would be willing to pay for them. With the price of the codex, I simply cannot afford these guys this year, but I'll probably replace my current squad of awkward, poorly balanced metal raptors with a couple boxes of these guys some time next year.

 

A bunch of old stuff re-released in failcast: Not at all excited. Putting the old cult unit upgrades out in failcast doesn't change the fact that their kits look 10 years out of date, and are completely put to shame by more recent models. It's nice to see some of the old heroes, but when models from the 3.5 release are outshining the new apostle and sorcerer that's a problem.

 

Battleforce: Bikes, rhinos, and possessed don't exactly strike me as strong foundation units, and the chaos marines are ten years old now. There are no new models in this battleforce, despite the fact that the new raptors easily could have been included in place of the bikes or possessed, and despite the fact that the codex now boasts a brand new troops choice. The price isn't bad for what's in the box, but they really should have held off on the new battleforce until they could include some cultists in it.

 

 

Mutilators: Somehow they're actually worse than the obliterator models. I'm not sure how they pulled that off. Truely, they are the pumbagors of 40k. The less said about them the better, and yet I have to say... I hope that plastic dual kit is on the way and just got delayed by six months or so, forcing these guys as a last minute, no effort stopgap, sort of like the terrible metal possessed we had for all of like three months before the awesome plastic kit was released. Because if they're not intended to be a dual kit with obliterators, there was no reason for these guys to even be a unit in the first place.

 

 

Overall Release rating: 4/10. No surprisingly affordable kits (like the ork and necron fliers), very little that compares favorably to the starter box minis, several releases more on par with the 3.5 release a decade ago than with modern GW products, and the mutilators aren't even up to that standard. The raptors basically save this first wave from being a complete disappointment, but that's only one unit.

 

In the end, I'm happy to get a new codex. I think I'll save up for that, and by the time I can afford it hopefully a second wave will be out, and I can just pretend most of this never happened. If a second wave doesn't come, then my chaos purchases for 6th edition will be limited to buying more starter box minis off of ebay, and maybe expanding on my selection of daemonic allies.

[The Colossus]

My current army is an Iron Warriors splinter faction who specialise in daemonancy, and when the rumours started, I was going to add plenty of daemon engines to it. The Dark Vengeance box raised my hopes for a slew of heavily mutated models, to fit in with my theme.

 

Having seen the new models, I'll be skipping everything aside from the raptors and the aspiring champion. My army is going to become an Iron Warriors splinter Siege Assault Company specialising in daemonacy. I really like those Raptors, but I'm sorely disappointed with the daemon engines, I'd have liked something like the Hellbrute.

 

I'll also be building my own Warpsmith(s), I don't feel the model is worth £18.

 

A bit of a mixed bag for me personally, but one that I can live with.

[Lepaca]

Everything he said

 

+1

 

But you can just forget about a obliterator/mutilator dual kit release. That would be way too reasonable. :cuss

 

I'm also incredibly disappointed about the fact that there won't be a new CSM box set. The sculpts are so out of date at this point that its not even funny anymore.

[Hellrender]

me too. If Abbaddon indeed makes chosen (&or termienators) troops, i might toy around with the idea of a more elite army, where i can invest a bit more money in each model, for example converting raptors into chosen marines.

[Sception]

But you can just forget about a obliterator/mutilator dual kit release. That would be way too reasonable. :cuss

 

I still think it's on the way. Maybe 6 months out due to some production problem or delay, but I still think its coming. Again, remember those terrible metal possessed we had for all of five minutes before the plastic kit was released?

 

Frankly, there's no reason for these guys even to exist apart from being a dual kit with oblits. That has to be the intention, or they wouldn't be in the codex in the first place. These failcast mutilators are just a last minute, no effort, stop gap release. I'm convinced of that.

[Hellrender]

But you can just forget about a obliterator/mutilator dual kit release. That would be way too reasonable. :rolleyes:

 

I still think it's on the way. Maybe 6 months out due to some production problem or delay, but I still think its coming. Again, remember those terrible metal possessed we had for all of five minutes before the plastic kit was released?

 

Frankly, there's no reason for these guys even to exist apart from being a dual kit with oblits. That has to be the intention, or they wouldn't be in the codex in the first place. These failcast mutilators are just a last minute, no effort, stop gap release. I'm convinced of that.

 

i so hope your right. Would make sense (since the mutilators are just oblis with possessed claws), but again, its GW, and they are not always the most sensible.

 

Even though the models are a bit underwhelming, for such an anticipated release. Let us hope that the Codex holds up, and is actually good (like SW good, or even DE good would do)

[Sception]

I'm not so hopeful that our codex is on par with either of those books. Nothing I've seen or heard of it really had any 'wow' factor to it. It's better than our current book, at least has some interesting options, but so far I haven't seen anything that would really put the fear of the warp into an opponent.

[Iron Sage]

I have 3 old metal oblits which I have painted pretty well (for me that is, and I in no way would dare to compare myself to Malisteen and all of you people that are truly good at painting and converting), and I have 3 terminators which are converted to oblits. What I have decided to do (depends upon codex efficiency of the mutilators to be honest) is to rip of the ranged arms from my beloved oblits, and add spiky bits or cc stuff as it will only be a very minor paintjob after all. Then obviously I will use the termie converted oblits as oblits. Anyway, before I truly decide I have to actually read the codex a couple of times.

[Sception]

Definitely hold off for the codex before doing that. Mutilators are an expensive slow elite unit with no ranged weaponry at all, and when last rumored couldn't even deep strike. Their weapon morphing rules are ok, but nothing to write home about. I haven't seen their full rules, they could be amazing, but they're not off to a promising start, imo.

[HJL]

im a bit disappointed really. look at the quality of the necron, dark eldar and blood angels releases, now look at the chaos one. makes me want to kick GW in the balls.

[Cmdr Shepard]

I belong to the "undecided new chaos player" category.

I'll start a CSM for sure and I already ordered the Codex, 2 boxes of Raptors/Warp Talons, the warpsmith (I know all of those finecast tentacles will create problems but the model, and its possible play role, intrigues me.), a Finecast Ahriman ( I don't have the old model so I need one if I want to play/test him), the Dark Apostole (WD says he will allow you to re roll on the chaos table) but I'm not sure about the fiends and the heldrake.

 

They could be useful but I'm not sure about their real effectiveness.

On Monday I'll order 2 Chaos Terminators boxes, Abaddon (I plan to replace his head with a helmet from the CSM TDA Lord), and additional CSM squad and I'll try to convert more cultsists (I have 60 of them 3 DV sets, plus 10 I converted from the fantasy imperial handgunnets and I was thinking to convert some beastmen, vampire counts zombies for the Nurgle cultists; just to mention two options).

 

I'm still undecided on the daemin engines.. any suggestion to share?

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I agree with everything Malisteen said, with one exception: the Sorceror. Now I'm not saying you're 100% wrong on it, but I will say this: it may look dated, but at least it looks better than the three metal ones we've been dealing with for the past decade. I've got all three of them and never used one, even back in 3.5, because I couldn't decide which two of the three I despised more. At least this one, to me, is tabletop-worthy.

 

Edit: Oh, and by the way, regarding the Chosen Champion model -- there's more awesome to it than meets the eye. If you look at the 360 view on the website, his backpack has a slung combimelta attached to it. Looks great!

[Sception]

I belong to the "undecided new chaos player" category.

I'll start a CSM for sure and I already ordered the Codex, 2 boxes of Raptors/Warp Talons, the warpsmith (I know all of those finecast tentacles will create problems but the model, and its possible play role, intrigues me.), a Finecast Ahriman ( I don't have the old model so I need one if I want to play/test him), the Dark Apostole (WD says he will allow you to re roll on the chaos table) but I'm not sure about the fiends and the heldrake.

 

They could be useful but I'm not sure about their real effectiveness.

On Monday I'll order 2 Chaos Terminators boxes, Abaddon (I plan to replace his head with a helmet from the CSM TDA Lord), and additional CSM squad and I'll try to convert more cultsists (I have 60 of them 3 DV sets, plus 10 I converted from the fantasy imperial handgunnets and I was thinking to convert some beastmen, vampire counts zombies for the Nurgle cultists; just to mention two options).

 

I'm still undecided on the daemin engines.. any suggestion to share?

 

My advice: Do not order finecast Abaddon. That abaddon is a very old model, dating back to 2nd edition when terminators were about the size of tactical marines today. not counting his trophy racks, he stands about a head shorter than the plastic terminators you're buying. It will be very disappointing, even more so with one of the new terminator heads, which will look too big on him and only make him seem shorter.

 

Instead, I'd wait for a new Abaddon model. It's rumored to be in development anyway, though the codex shows old abby then it may be some time before it sees the light of day. In the mean time, I'd get the plastic terminator lord, which is a nice model (if not up to dark vengeance standards), and just proxy it as abby if you want while you wait.

 

Otherwise, the terminators, cultists, chaos marines, and raptors should serve you well, and will give you a decent foundation to work from. You may want to shy away from the daemon engines unless you plan to add multiples of them. Most players field a mix of anti-tank and anti-infantry weaponry, so if you take just one tank it's going to eat a lot of fire and crumple, even if it does have "it will not die" and a daemon save. If you take several vehicles, say a couple rhinos and two to three other assorted vehicles (whether you go with fiends, brutes, defilers, drakes, or other tanks), you'll get more mileage out of them. The hades cannon forgefiend looks pretty decent in terms of points efficiency, and the drake should be a pain to take down for enemies not well equipped to deal with fliers. Hard to offer any more detailed advice than that given that we've only got vague rumors to go on.

 

 

Oh, the warpsmith. If you run into trouble with the finecast tentacles, you can try replacing them with pewter power cables From Dragonforge. They might not look quite as good, but they should be easy to attach (just clip tentacles off, use a pin vice to drill holes in the body and in the weapons that go on the end of the tentacles, glue the power cords into the holes, & bend into place), and it's something that you can do as a repair job later if the finecast tentacles break or bend, it's not something you'd have to commit to before assembly & painting (though, of course, you'd have to paint the cables after attaching them). I plan to use these same cables to convert my old Mojo model into a warpsmith.

[Killax]

So all is dissapoint and you want your plastic models for reasonable prices.

 

GJ guys.

 

- You are playing a game that gets more expensive a year but still are suprised at more expensive stuff.

- You have the option to choose another army, if you don't like it, don't play it. There is ENOUGH power armour to chose from.

- You could move your lazy ass and convert something decent.

 

I like it so far, I do hope we get some reminders of the legions whom some marines came from. I still like not mixing gods in one list.

 

Cheers,

[Sception]

Definitely hold off for the codex before doing that. Mutilators are an expensive slow elite unit with no ranged weaponry at all, and when last rumored couldn't even deep strike. Their weapon morphing rules are ok, but nothing to write home about. I haven't seen their full rules, they could be amazing, but they're not off to a promising start, imo.

 

 

Ok, you can see the stats and abilities of the mutilators on the pre-order page for the limited edition codex. Since this is all clear to see on their web page, hopefully posting it shouldn't be an issue:

 

Ws4, Bs4, S4, T4, W2, I4, A2, Ld8, Sv2+

gear: Fleshmetal (the 2+ armor save)

special rules: bulky, Daemon, Deep Strike, Slow and Purposeful

 

Mutilator weapons: -

each turn, choose one of the following weapons. Every model in the squad uses the same option, and you can't use the same option twice in two consecutive fight phases

 

pair chainfists

pair lightning claws

pair power axes

pair power swords

pair power mauls

 

oblits are the same, but with oblit weapons and power fists instead of mutilator weapons

 

What we don't see are points costs, options, or unit sizes, but I have to say I'm not particularly thrilled. Not that I had expected to be. At least they can deep strike, but the reduced toughness and weapon use restrictions hurt oblits and leave mutilators a bit suffering. I had hoped to see frenzy or fury or whatever that 'more attacks when outnumbered' rule is, but nope. Two attacks, plus one for pair weapons, is simply nowhere near the offensive output these guys needed to look competitive against terminators, imo, especially not if their points costs and unit sizes are similar to what we've come to expect from obliterators. Rumors are they can take marks now, but that only goes so far (especially since they'd need to take the mark of nurgle just to match the old oblit profile in the first place).

 

 

Anyway, still not enough info to say whether they're even worth considering, we'd need points costs for that, but there's certainly nothing in their stats, gear, or special rules that would make them exciting units on the field. It's that lack of 'wow' factor, whether in the models or in the rules we've seen so far, that's kind of sucking the excitement out of this release for me.

 

 

So all is dissapoint and you want your plastic models for reasonable prices.

No, we want models that reflect in quality the prices that are being asked for them. New models that cost more money while being noticeably less good that other recent releases are disappointing. What do you expect to be the reaction when freaking amazing and surprisingly affordable (for GW) models like the dark vengeance kit or the ork and necron fliers, are immediately followed up by a lackluster release like this?

 

- You could move your lazy ass and convert something decent.

We pay GW money, a lot of money, to make models that are better than what we could have come up with on our own.

[space wolf]

Did anyone else notice that there are new terminators? I could be wrong, but the chaos terminators they show, don't have the god awful chainmail taberds and stuff of the old ones. It looks like they took the old kit, and just gave them new torsos and legs.....but again I could be wrong...