New chaos and you

[Smurfalypse]

I'd probably say there's always a place for a Forgefiend with a couple of Ectoplasma cannons in it, just to give Paladins and Nobz something to think about. Some of the images so far have been of the Hades-Fiend with an Ecto-head, if usable that might turn out as a useful comprimise. Similarly a Flyer with a Flamestorm cannon is never a bad investment.

 

I'd probably agree with malisteen that you could go over-the-top with them, but I certainly plan to anyway. I like the models and I really like Walkers, always have done.

 

Dont think the cannons would bother Nobz to much to be honest, it still doesnt insta death them due to T5 o the bikes. Still a bunch of hits and wounds, so still may be good.

[Sception]

The other problem with going to heavy on the daemon engines is that while their output is decent against light vehicles or (in the plasma fiend's case) heavy infantry, they don't really have the kind of firepower needed to chew through heavy vehicles or large numbers of light or medium infantry, so you're going to have a hard time winning purely by weight of firepower against infantry heavy guard or orks or even particularly numerous marine armies (even with three drake's spamming balefire). Also, the melee machines have to worry about grenades, particularly haywire grenades. It's not a good time for walkers to be engaged in close combat without some infantry support of their own.

[Verythrax Draconis]

The other problem with going to heavy on the daemon engines is that while their output is decent against light vehicles or (in the plasma fiend's case) heavy infantry, they don't really have the kind of firepower needed to chew through heavy vehicles or large numbers of light or medium infantry, so you're going to have a hard time winning purely by weight of firepower against infantry heavy guard or orks or even particularly numerous marine armies (even with three drake's spamming balefire). Also, the melee machines have to worry about grenades, particularly haywire grenades. It's not a good time for walkers to be engaged in close combat without some infantry support of their own.

 

That's the main weak point on the idea in my opinion as well - hordes an light infantry. I never played Chaos before, but as far as I could see, CSM was never really an army with a large spreading fire capability, anyway.

 

EDIT: if the cultists are cheap enough, maybe we can make the opponent worry about it, instead :lol:

[Feste]

Dont think the cannons would bother Nobz to much to be honest, it still doesnt insta death them due to T5 o the bikes. Still a bunch of hits and wounds, so still may be good.

I forgot about them, I always jumped out of Battlewaggons myself so am too used to T4 Nobz. Ork Bikers also get their 4+ cover save no matter what so they don't care about the AP2, it can get Meganobz though which is nice.

 

The other problem with going to heavy on the daemon engines is that while their output is decent against light vehicles or (in the plasma fiend's case) heavy infantry, they don't really have the kind of firepower needed to chew through heavy vehicles or large numbers of light or medium infantry, so you're going to have a hard time winning purely by weight of firepower against infantry heavy guard or orks or even particularly numerous marine armies (even with three drake's spamming balefire). Also, the melee machines have to worry about grenades, particularly haywire grenades. It's not a good time for walkers to be engaged in close combat without some infantry support of their own.

Agreed. I think as time goes on reliably shooting Heavy (AV13-14) vehicles to death is going to be the preserve of Guard and Tau really, so we're not really alone in this. Yeah, horde is always going to be a problem with an extreme engine list, although any kind of min-maxed list has this problem, it's just a case of you pays your money and you takes your chances.

 

I'd be curious about Horde CC-marines with Maulerfiend support. They can protect the Mauler from Wyches, while the Mauler can keep the marine-killers at bay.

[Iron Sage]

From what I have gleamed from the new codex, it seems to have greater synergy than the current. Not that many choices seems to be that good when you spam them. But many of the units, helped by special rules, aids each other.

 

Also, I think it is now pretty safe to say that we will have far, far stronger HQs than in the current codex. Not seen a scanned page ofthe Chaos Lord, but rumours on warseer from ppl who claim to have seen it, says he is 2/3 of the current cost, and has Aura of the DarkGods (+5 invul like in current) and Fearless included in the cost. They say that he will cost exactly the same as a naked Space Marine HQ if you arm him only with terminator armour (chaos lord). So if the chaos armoury is also nice, it looks like we will have very good lords and sorcerers, and the warpsmith seems very good as well. DP and Apostle are kind of unknown I`d say.

 

As for the rest, a lot of units have clearly become better. As an example, even at +1 point, plague marines will now (I am not a math guy, but still) butcher approxximatly the equalent of zerkers against hordes due to re-rollable to wound against inferior toughness.

 

Bikes are now dirt cheap. Isnt this now a very, very viable tactical option?

 

I mean, there is so much options for us in what has been leaked so far, that I dont even personally understand how anyone can actually think it looks bad.

 

So far, I detect only Possessed and Thousand Sons (sons only because they are not changed) as dissapointments, as well as possibly mutilators.

 

Everything else looks very good, while the Daemon Prince is unknown. So..Why ladies and gentlemen, are so many of you digging deep into your black souls to seek ut negatives when there is clearly a lot more positive compared to negative in this comming codex?

 

Like we have seen, there is so much good here, and like Malisteen says, never underestimate the power of options. It gives you additional tactics to implement in units and your overall strategy.

[Seahawk]

Bikes are at 23 points each (if you buy a full squad and no upgrades), so FINALLY they are cheaper than the broken Orky bikes that are at 25 each. :D

[minigun762]

So if I understand the rumors, the rank and file CSM will be 2 points cheaper now. Upgrading to the long war seems fairly standard so we still come out ahead compared to old codex or loyalists.

Tossing the squad a pair of specials and a rhino might be all you need. Get around the whole challenge issue by not including a champion.

[Attomsk]

So if I understand the rumors, the rank and file CSM will be 2 points cheaper now. Upgrading to the long war seems fairly standard so we still come out ahead compared to old codex or loyalists.

Tossing the squad a pair of specials and a rhino might be all you need. Get around the whole challenge issue by not including a champion.

 

You have to have a champ in all squads, they are purchased with the first 5 marines.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Any word if champs can get some type of armor which gives them +2 armor save?

[minigun762]

You have to have a champ in all squads, they are purchased with the first 5 marines.

That'll teach me to think!

[Smurfalypse]

So if I understand the rumors, the rank and file CSM will be 2 points cheaper now. Upgrading to the long war seems fairly standard so we still come out ahead compared to old codex or loyalists.

Tossing the squad a pair of specials and a rhino might be all you need. Get around the whole challenge issue by not including a champion.

 

As the previous replay stated, the champ is purchased with the first five, exactly the same as the marine codexs do it. Also, the basic CSMs do not come with BP+CCW+Bolter anymore, you have to pay +2pts per guy to get the CCW, or you can swap out the bolter for a CCW for free. So all in all with VotLW we come out at the same leadership, same load out, for 1 point more each. We however gain Hatred vs SMs, which is a very big deal if you are standing at 30 attacks in melee on the charge. That is 7.5 extra hits, you dont gain hatred vs other armies but you do get the +1 leadership. It will probably all depend on how often you take the icon that makes the unit fearless, if you take that you probably wont take VotLW.

[Kol Saresk]

Wait, I can just drop the Bolter and take the CCW + Bolt Pistol for free? Well, that solves that dilemma for me. I can go back to painting and modeling(by modeling I mean assembling) my minis without further ado.(aka after class)

[Sception]

Any word if champs can get some type of armor which gives them +2 armor save?

 

No. At least, not that can be purchased as an option for the units that don't already have it, judging from the CSM entry. They can take melee and ranged weapons from the armory, but nothing about choosing from a wargear list that might include terminator armor.

[minigun762]

Hmmm, it still might be worth the point savings to forgo the ccw or champion upgrades if you're just taking plasma and rapid firing. Though the same argument could be made for melta and tank hunting.

[Smurfalypse]

Hmmm, it still might be worth the point savings to forgo the ccw or champion upgrades if you're just taking plasma and rapid firing. Though the same argument could be made for melta and tank hunting.

 

Yeah, it is definitely going to come down to peoples personal preference. I am thinking that the Cultists may make the extra CC attack not so much needed, but gotta play a few games before I can really say one way or another.

 

My thinking thus far is that if you are playing against a blob that wants to get into melee, you will want the extra attack in melee each round. If you are playing against a SM army, you will probably really see a huge difference in that extra attack each round, especially in the first round of combat when you get to reroll your misses.having that extra melee attack allows you to really want to come to grips with any SM MEQ unit as you will either greatly outshine them in CC or at worst be about on an even level with them (SM assault squad), add in that reroll and you should dominate them in CC . Something like an Ork blog squad or a IG blob squad it would probably be the same thing, you would want to bolter on your way in and then charge, this will give you the chance to widdle down the scrub attacks and prevent hidding power fists/axes/klaws from getting any extra attacks vs you. Main issue with assaulting blobs currently is the huge amount of overwatch shots they take at you, but i would rather eat that than the entire unit getting extra attacks in CC. That upgrade for vehicles may end up being handy if it is low cost :D

 

So it may come out as being standard since both of those senariors represent 80% of the game currently :P

[Iron Sage]

Hmmm, it still might be worth the point savings to forgo the ccw or champion upgrades if you're just taking plasma and rapid firing. Though the same argument could be made for melta and tank hunting.

 

I think I am going to mostly have them with extra CC, but its very nice to have the option to take marines for 13 points without extra CC. Against marines I would always pay the point for Veterans of the Long War, against Guard and Necrons which I mostly face, perhaps not albeit it would be nice to keep my old LD, so we`ll see.

 

For Havocs, the option to take them without extra CC and therefore for only 13 points, is gold I think.

 

I like having options, I really do. Previously, we had the most boring codex available, ultra-streamlined and with so little options. It was simly a boring book. Now we seem to be able to include viable Fast Attack as well. Also, I am so happy that we got Warlord traits in our codex. The ones in the rule book were often quite lame, while we happen to have only useful ones in our new book, albeit some are clearly superior to others.

[Smurfalypse]

Hmmm, it still might be worth the point savings to forgo the ccw or champion upgrades if you're just taking plasma and rapid firing. Though the same argument could be made for melta and tank hunting.

 

I think I am going to mostly have them with extra CC, but its very nice to have the option to take marines for 13 points without extra CC. Against marines I would always pay the point for Veterans of the Long War, against Guard and Necrons which I mostly face, perhaps not albeit it would be nice to keep my old LD, so we`ll see.

 

For Havocs, the option to take them without extra CC and therefore for only 13 points, is gold I think.

 

I like having options, I really do. Previously, we had the most boring codex available, ultra-streamlined and with so little options. It was simly a boring book. Now we seem to be able to include viable Fast Attack as well. Also, I am so happy that we got Warlord traits in our codex. The ones in the rule book were often quite lame, while we happen to have only useful ones in our new book, albeit some are clearly superior to others.

 

Yeah, DA and Eldar are in the same boat, hope both of their new codexs are good for them as well.

[Iron Sage]

Hmmm, it still might be worth the point savings to forgo the ccw or champion upgrades if you're just taking plasma and rapid firing. Though the same argument could be made for melta and tank hunting.

 

I think I am going to mostly have them with extra CC, but its very nice to have the option to take marines for 13 points without extra CC. Against marines I would always pay the point for Veterans of the Long War, against Guard and Necrons which I mostly face, perhaps not albeit it would be nice to keep my old LD, so we`ll see.

 

For Havocs, the option to take them without extra CC and therefore for only 13 points, is gold I think.

 

I like having options, I really do. Previously, we had the most boring codex available, ultra-streamlined and with so little options. It was simly a boring book. Now we seem to be able to include viable Fast Attack as well. Also, I am so happy that we got Warlord traits in our codex. The ones in the rule book were often quite lame, while we happen to have only useful ones in our new book, albeit some are clearly superior to others.

 

Yeah, DA and Eldar are in the same boat, hope both of their new codexs are good for them as well.

 

To be honest, I haven`t really read the current Dark Angles codex. I actually think its the only one I have not read,but even so, I am pretty clueless about them personally. Eldar is very streamlined though,your certainly right about that!

[Smurfalypse]

Hmmm, it still might be worth the point savings to forgo the ccw or champion upgrades if you're just taking plasma and rapid firing. Though the same argument could be made for melta and tank hunting.

 

I think I am going to mostly have them with extra CC, but its very nice to have the option to take marines for 13 points without extra CC. Against marines I would always pay the point for Veterans of the Long War, against Guard and Necrons which I mostly face, perhaps not albeit it would be nice to keep my old LD, so we`ll see.

 

For Havocs, the option to take them without extra CC and therefore for only 13 points, is gold I think.

 

I like having options, I really do. Previously, we had the most boring codex available, ultra-streamlined and with so little options. It was simly a boring book. Now we seem to be able to include viable Fast Attack as well. Also, I am so happy that we got Warlord traits in our codex. The ones in the rule book were often quite lame, while we happen to have only useful ones in our new book, albeit some are clearly superior to others.

 

Yeah, DA and Eldar are in the same boat, hope both of their new codexs are good for them as well.

 

To be honest, I haven`t really read the current Dark Angles codex. I actually think its the only one I have not read,but even so, I am pretty clueless about them personally. Eldar is very streamlined though,your certainly right about that!

 

Think of it as the current CSM codex, except with less. . .

[Iron Sage]

Hmmm, it still might be worth the point savings to forgo the ccw or champion upgrades if you're just taking plasma and rapid firing. Though the same argument could be made for melta and tank hunting.

 

I think I am going to mostly have them with extra CC, but its very nice to have the option to take marines for 13 points without extra CC. Against marines I would always pay the point for Veterans of the Long War, against Guard and Necrons which I mostly face, perhaps not albeit it would be nice to keep my old LD, so we`ll see.

 

For Havocs, the option to take them without extra CC and therefore for only 13 points, is gold I think.

 

I like having options, I really do. Previously, we had the most boring codex available, ultra-streamlined and with so little options. It was simly a boring book. Now we seem to be able to include viable Fast Attack as well. Also, I am so happy that we got Warlord traits in our codex. The ones in the rule book were often quite lame, while we happen to have only useful ones in our new book, albeit some are clearly superior to others.

 

Yeah, DA and Eldar are in the same boat, hope both of their new codexs are good for them as well.

 

To be honest, I haven`t really read the current Dark Angles codex. I actually think its the only one I have not read,but even so, I am pretty clueless about them personally. Eldar is very streamlined though,your certainly right about that!

 

Think of it as the current CSM codex, except with less. . .

 

Oh...

[minigun762]

Is paying for the ccw limited to basic csm?

[Iron Sage]

Is paying for the ccw limited to basic csm?

 

Not really sure. I read someone claiming that Noise Marines have to pay 2 points for extra cc as well. I dont, in anyway, know though.

Havocs must pay as well (this is good, since you dont then have to pay for it in the first place)

[minigun762]

Yeah it's a steal for havocs which is good. Between cheaper unit and AA weapons, they should make a comeback.

[Brother Evar]

I would like to come back to CSM's. I am getting-

 

CSM codex

CSM aspiring champ

Warpsmith

Demon Prince (missed metal one)

2 boxes raptors

Helldrake

Oblitorators

2 forgefiend

 

This will cost $662 AUD and I will be at my GW to buy it all on 6 Oct. Haven't been this keen since 3rd ed.

 

As much as I take issue with GW, its where my love of wargaming took root. I am coming back full circle and doing Black Legion. I have played and collected other systems of mini wargames and achieved all the collecting I desire there. Its time to go back and I look foward to it, despite the financial cost. Expect to see me more active on the forums.

[space wolf]

welcome back!