New chaos and you

[Sception]

I'm really not sure what I'll do with the CSM gear changes. I'll probably run mixed squads, some with BP/CCW and some with Bolters, as much confusion at that might cause on the table. I think two points a model's too much to run the full kit, especially in larger squads. I'd rather spend those points on vets of the long war or an icon.

 

Of course, that's assuming I run basic chaos marine squads at all, with cultists providing an alternative that's so much cheaper.

[KingDeath]

Yeah, I noticed that, and was pretty unhappy about it. Apparently CSMs were too good as a troops choice, and desperately needed to be nerfed? That's really discouraging. Not even any USR on that, you have to pay extra to hate on space marines or pick up a mark.

 

Also, now apparently if you want to be wysiwyg, you have to take note of each individual CSM model, as bolt pistol & close combat weapon, Bolter, and everything are now three distinct equipment options in the codex? And if warseer is to be believed, units don't even need to all have the same weapon, so each individual model needs to be examined individually?

 

I've seen some photoed pages of the new codex on another site, and this is apparently true. Any model in a basic CSM squad can buy a CCW or trade his bolter for a CCW for free.

 

Bwhahahahaha, yeah, thanks Mr. Kelly. Perhaps Chaosmuhreens didn't wolf his wolf enough or we simply have to pay the usual tax for not being imperial spessmuhreens.

[Warsmith Aznable]

I've got three squads of basic troops built. The first two are modeled with mixed gear, and a third is pure bolters. One of my guys even has two bolt pistols, because that didn't matter at all back when I made him. What I'm going to do about it I'm not sure. I had feared losing the combo, so in one way it's a relief just not to have to rip arms off all over the place.

 

The big deal for running my two mixed squads as WYSIWYG instead of paying the point penalty and running them like I have been would be the loss of rapid fire. Getting off just one turn of a bolter fusillade has turned entire games around for me.

[Sception]

Bwhahahahaha, yeah, thanks Mr. Kelly. Perhaps Chaosmuhreens didn't wolf his wolf enough or we simply have to pay the usual tax for not being imperial spessmuhreens.

 

I don't think it's anything so malicious as that. Codexes have been on an upardly trending power scale for some time, I think they just decided that the release of 6e would be the point at which they reigned it in, and we just so happened to be the first book out. So our special rules aren't quite so over the top, and our units aren't quite so points efficient. I'm not the only one who's been anticipating a book with a lot more flavor and options than our old one, but not appreciably greater in the overall power department.

 

As long as the internal balance is alright - so long as there aren't too many must have or must-not-take options I'll be fine. For instance, I was worried that the defiler at the new price might be just completely outclassed by the forgefiend, but if you give it the plasma cannons, the fiends about the same price anyway.

[KingDeath]

Bwhahahahaha, yeah, thanks Mr. Kelly. Perhaps Chaosmuhreens didn't wolf his wolf enough or we simply have to pay the usual tax for not being imperial spessmuhreens.

 

I don't think it's anything so malicious as that. Codexes have been on an upardly trending power scale for some time, I think they just decided that the release of 6e would be the point at which they reigned it in, and we just so happened to be the first book out. So our special rules aren't quite so over the top, and our units aren't quite so points efficient. I'm not the only one who's been anticipating a book with a lot more flavor and options than our old one, but not appreciably greater in the overall power department.

 

As long as the internal balance is alright - so long as there aren't too many must have or must-not-take options I'll be fine. For instance, I was worried that the defiler at the new price might be just completely outclassed by the forgefiend, but if you give it the plasma cannons, the fiends about the same price anyway.

 

Last time this happened we got the Dark Angels codex. We all know how well this ended.

[RapatoR]

Uh guys, I would not compare it just like that, because CCWs are bought/swapped PER MODEL, not for entire squad there is room from customisation. Also don't forget our champ is cheaper, is auto included (so automatically 1 point better leadership than gh, which can be further improved + you gain hatred against ALL loyalist SM) and doesn't take up 2nds specialist weapon slot + option to take heavy weapons. + for point cost of current MoCG they have fearless now.

 

But wait, there is more!

GH will not get progressively better as they kill stuff.

Also you surely noticed that champ will be able to take mele and also ranged weapons from wargear sections which means that he might have access to some solid shooting weapons and also it means that wargear section is back! :)

Also don't forget that have another dirty cheap troop choice(s).

[Sception]

Are you sure the aspiring champion is free? I'm looking at the army list in the white dwarf report, and if other points cost rumors are correct (base cost as SM scout, 2 points for extra close combat weapon, 1 for vets of the long war, same cost for meltagun & flamer, 5 points cheaper for the champ's power weapon) then the aspiring champion upgrade costs 13 points. Edit: Wait... you said cheaper, not free. Sorry, my mistake.

 

I'm just a little surprised that they decided basic CSMs were too good for their points already, as though the extra close combat weapon was not only as good as ATSKNF, but better, to the point that CSMs needed a lower leadership value to make up for it. Seriously, ATSKNF is the best special rule in the game, at least as far as infantry is concerned. Ah, well, I'll live.

 

Anyway, I don't think it's as doom and gloom as the Dark Angels book. They don't seem to be trying to cut back on options and special rules, they're not trying to oversimplify or streamline, just reign in overall power level & points efficiency. I can live with that.

[Warsmith Aznable]

Are you sure the aspiring champion is free?

 

the codex photos going around show us buying CSM like loyalists: 1 Aspiring Champ and 4 CSM with options to take more.

[RapatoR]

And one more thing: do not forget marks! 16 pts T5 marine? 15 pts 3+ 5++ marine 15 pts rage, counter-attack marine? Holy moly!

 

Also why we should compare them with GH and not BC or Base tacs? Why pick single choice from one codex? For all we know from rumours, GW even might adjust point costs/stats for some things in future.

[Jay Taint]

So am I picking that right? It's 13 points for a standard CSM with bolter, and +2 points per model for extra CC weapon and pistol?

 

Cheers, JT

[Sception]

The current understanding is 13 points for standard CSM w/ -1 leadership (champion has old leadership, maybe?), comes with frag, krak, bolter, bolt pistol. Any model may add a close combat weapon for +2 points, or trade their bolter for a close combat weapon for free. Veterans gives the whole squad +1 leadership and hatred (all brands of loyalist marines) for +1 point per model. Marks are 2 points per model (except for nurgle, which is 3)? I may have that wrong, marks may be more than that. Anyway, the marks are +1T, +1Init, 5+ inv, or rage & counterattack (effectively +1 attack, but only on the first round of combat. Mark of Khorn does not grant counterassault, that is granted by the icon of khorne (along with a charge distance re-roll that is slightly different from fleet of foot). Note that there no longer appears to be a mark of chaos undivided at all, though the Veterans upgrade serves a similar function, while also being able to add an aligned mark on top of it.

 

Icons are rumored to be (grain of salt, getting this from random warseer discussion):

Slaanesh, FnP, 30 points

Undivided, Fearless, 25 points

Khorne, counterassault EDIT: Furious Charge + charge range reroll that is ever so slightly different from the charge range reroll fleet of foot keyword universal rule*, 20 points

Tzeentch, Soulblaze, 15 points

Nurgle, Fear, 10 points

 

Aligned icons can only be purchased by units with said mark. The undivided icon can be purchased by anyone regardless of mark or lack there of. All icons offer +1 to combat results in melee in addition to the above rules. I haven't heard if they're supposed to keep their teleport homer properties.

 

Aspiring Champion is auto-included (for effectively 13 points), has +1 attack, maybe +1 leadership? can take similar options as they can now, but the melee weapons are all supposed to be 5 points cheaper. The champion must issue challenges, and must accept challenges issued by the enemy if they can (ie, if another character hasn't accepted for them). If they defeat an enemy in a challenge, they roll on the bonus chart. In addition, for 10 points they can purchase an additional roll on the chart at the start of the game.

 

The squad's max unit size, special weapon, and special/heavy option (at unit size 10+) are supposed to stay the same.

 

 

Overall, I'm relatively happy with the range of options available. If I had my way there would be some slight differences, but not too much. I think they're a tad overpriced - I wouldn't want them cheaper, but I would like them to get something slightly more, maybe a universal rule, or just give them the full kit right out of the box, but I can't complain too hard. I'm not sure how competitive they'll be, and the nurgle and especially tzeentch banners are a little sad, but at least there's a lot to experiment with.

 

 

 

 

* No, I will not let it go.

[Iron Sage]

http://images.4chan.org/tg/src/1348423077561.jpg

 

Perhaps of interest.

 

I am some what dissapointed concerning the chaos marines but mostly the daemon prince as it will be horrifyingly expensive to field (as it is useless without expensive upgrades anyway,so the only way to field it would probably be to make it into some sort of solo deathstar). Also, daemon princes are able to buy daemon weapons and rewards what not. Lol, those deamon weapons better be spectacular to justify such a cost though.

 

Other than that, the codex seems to be full of interesting options and I can and will certainly like that!

[Caffeineated Chaos]

Anyway, the marks are +1T, +1Init, 5+ inv, or rage (+1 attack, but only on the charge). Mark of Khorn does not grant counterassault, that is granted by the icon of khorne (along with a charge distance re-roll that is slightly different from fleet of foot).

October White Dwarf has pages from the new codex in it. MoK is the one that gives counterattack. The icon of Khorne grants furious charge along with the charge range reroll you won't let go. :tu:

[Iron Sage]

Cool that the Warpsmith has an artificer equalent. He comes with a power axe as well, and mechandrites gives him both a flamer and a melta gun in addition to +2 attacks. And "Shatter Defences" could be very nice against some armies (thinking about that battalion of Guardsmen in cover). And suprisingly he can even take marks. Hmm.

Horrid Ws and only 2 W though..

[Jay Taint]

Thanks for your effort, malisteen!

I find that pretty amazing actually. Everybody having followed the rumours, and having hoped that CSM really get cheaper, would be somewhat disappointed by that. But it didn't get worse. In fact, I love it. We can field the previous standard set-up (with bolter, pistol, and CCW) for not more points, and we get to choose to get slightly more specialised troops for less. It's just more options, more flexibility, more fun. I can't see what's wrong with that.

 

Cheers, JT

[Smurfalypse]

Thanks for your effort, malisteen!

I find that pretty amazing actually. Everybody having followed the rumours, and having hoped that CSM really get cheaper, would be somewhat disappointed by that. But it didn't get worse. In fact, I love it. We can field the previous standard set-up (with bolter, pistol, and CCW) for not more points, and we get to choose to get slightly more specialised troops for less. It's just more options, more flexibility, more fun. I can't see what's wrong with that.

 

Cheers, JT

 

Not quiet the same, they would be one leadership lower.

[TheDarkApostle]

I still think it's on the way. Maybe 6 months out due to some production problem or delay, but I still think its coming. Again, remember those terrible metal possessed we had for all of five minutes before the plastic kit was released?

 

Frankly, there's no reason for these guys even to exist apart from being a dual kit with oblits. That has to be the intention, or they wouldn't be in the codex in the first place. These failcast mutilators are just a last minute, no effort, stop gap release. I'm convinced of that.

 

i so hope your right. Would make sense (since the mutilators are just oblis with possessed claws), but again, its GW, and they are not always the most sensible.

 

Even though the models are a bit underwhelming, for such an anticipated release. Let us hope that the Codex holds up, and is actually good (like SW good, or even DE good would do)

Mutilators aren't just Obliterators with possessed claws in the rules.

 

The only difference in the models themselves are the heads (who are bigger and just look out of place on the mutilators) and the arms. The main body / legs are the exact same as the standard Obliterators.

 

TDA

[Deadman Wade]

Also, if you want pistol, CCW & bolter on the new CSM's they will be the same price as they currently are... with one less leadership. So far im kind of bummed out.

Actually, 10-man squad with Asp Champ is 5 points cheaper. 140 for 9+champ, so it's 160 with bp, ccw and bolter and 1 less leadership. But still far worse than Grey Hunters.

[Jay Taint]

Not quiet the same, they would be one leadership lower.

Right. But I don't think it's too much of a disadvantage. As we're getting the Champion for free -- which is an advantage, really --, Ld values should effectively remain the same as long as he's alive. And unless he's dying from precision shots, he won't go down before the better part of the squad. It's too early to say, but I reckon it'll be fine.

 

Cheers, JT

[Sception]

That champion's not free. At 10 points more than a basic dude, it's a cheaper upgrade than it was before, but you are paying that 10 points extra for him in the initial 75 point cost of the squad (5x13 = 65, +10 for the champion).

 

I think things will be alright, but I still don't think the leadership hit on the regular troopers was at all necessary. Basic chaos marines have not exactly been the terrors of the table in recent years.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Well here's a new question. For tournament or pick-up lists -- where you don't know the opponent's army -- do you stack Veterans of the Long War with an Undivided Icon? The +1 Ld isn't a huge deal at that point, so is Hatred alone going to be worth the points you pay?

[Sception]

That's one of the many questions we're going to have to hash out through debate and experience after the book is released. My own thought is that you probably don't buy both veterans and a vengeance icon on CSM squads unless you're reasonably sure you're going to be facing loyalist marines, but who knows? Between barrage sniping, rhino sniping, and precision shots, you might want that leadership bump to be there if your icon gets popped, even if you aren't facing marines to benefit from the hatred as well.

[Azekai]

Oh goody, I love paying more for less. Higher DP cost, less bang for our buck with the rank and file CSMs . . . we are going to be a joke. The Wolves, the BA, heck, even vanilla marines are going to tear us a new hole. I am glad that the Chaos rules continue to follow the glorious tradition of being 'marines + fail.' :o

 

Edit: on the upshot, I just realized I won't have to change my signature . . .

[RapatoR]

Malisteen MoK gives counter-attack.

 

Also why all compare our basic CSM with Grey Hunters and not blood claws or tacs?

[Plaguecaster]

I hope Plague Marines still have their BP+CCW+Bolter as I will be :D: off or at least count bolters as an CCW like in the older codex with true grit, hopefully sorcerer doesn't get a nerf and still has 3 wounds other wise if 2 W I will be forced to take palaquin which gives +2 wounds, very bulky and +1 A in order to keep him alive longer (sucks it doesn't give feel no pain) but if stays 3 wounds would still take palaquin just cos 5W is cool, also you better be able to upgrade the sorcerers mastery as would be pretty stupid if our sorcerers were only mastery 1 especially with the cool new psychic powers (especially the Plague wind large blast ap2 poisoned 4+) this chaos boon chart will be very interesting imagine if you get extremely lucky and turn all models with the rule turn into DPs impossible but would be epic. Final thought damn you GW how dare you get rid of being able to turn anything into a Spawn I always managed to turn everything into a spawn even that ork super HQ Gaz (jealous I tell you)