New chaos and you

[Urdokadin]

H'm. The heldrake is listed as a flyer and a second unit type in those 4chan scans. It's either a hover type or another walker. Too blurred to make out for me. Anyone else see what I am?

[Cmdr Shepard]

H'm. The heldrake is listed as a flyer and a second unit type in those 4chan scans. It's either a hover type or another walker. Too blurred to make out for me. Anyone else see what I am?

 

It's "hover". So the Heldrake has hover model. I wonder of what use hover mode would be for a vehicle with no transport capabilities... a turn of easier maneuvers but with huge drawbacks....

[*Furyou Miko]

Probably has Hover Strike to shoot at BS4 when in hover mode.

 

Anyone else reminded of the old Pop Up Attack skimmers used to have in 2nd? >>

 

So annoyed at the cost of Thousand Sons. It's because AP3 bolters let them slaughter Marines in theory, but in practice there's always going to be a 5+ cover save.

 

Be even more annoying if we just ignore cover or reroll to wound instead.

 

13 points for a chaos space marine?!

 

Chaos Space Marines, with their 4 statline, now cost the same points as a Sister of Battle, with her 3 (+1 BS) statline, with basically the same gear (Bolter, Bolt Pistol, Power Armour, Frag and Kraks).

 

Wonder if that means we'll see Sisters drop back to 11 points/model when their book comes out. If not, then I won't be surprised, but I will be annoyed.

 

Still.. .23 points per Thousand Son. I guess that at least means I won't have to spend a fortune expanding my units... but I was so hoping for divination. And the ability to Snapfire. And.. you know, something that might make them AWESOME instead of just kinda cool in a corner kid club kind of way.

[Jay Taint]

What the hell is a Baleflamer?! :) Str6 AP3 Soul Blaze and Torrent ... Who, or what, can get that?

 

Cheers, JT

[Cmdr Shepard]

Probably has Hover Strike to shoot at BS4 when in hover mode.

 

I suppose hover mode can be useful in the mission where Fast Attack units can score and the Heldrake is near an objective at the start of the last turn. If it zooms it will no longer hold the objective, with hover mode it can stand still on the objective itself.

 

Since the most frequently used weapon would be the torrent falme weapon (at least it seems the current trend) BS would play a minimal role.

 

What the hell is a Baleflamer?! :) Str6 AP3 Soul Blaze and Torrent ... Who, or what, can get that?

 

Cheers, JT

The Heldrake can be equiped with a Balaflamer. Torrent means it works a la Dreadknight heavy incinerator and soul blaze the unit can take additional damage in the subsequent turns ( both rules are on the rulebook :P )

[Lepaca]

Has anyone else noticed that Daemon Princes now have to take a mark? What does that mean for the existing undivided princes in the fluff (looking at you Lorgar and Pertuarbo)?

 

Also what happens if a unmarked character is promoted to daemon prince via the new table? Will he get a mark of remain unmarked?

[Panda_]

13 points for a chaos space marine?!

 

Chaos Space Marines, with their 4 statline, now cost the same points as a Sister of Battle, with her 3 (+1 BS) statline, with basically the same gear (Bolter, Bolt Pistol, Power Armour, Frag and Kraks).

 

Wonder if that means we'll see Sisters drop back to 11 points/model when their book comes out. If not, then I won't be surprised, but I will be annoyed.

Let me put those Sister under another light: +1WS, +1T, +1A, Acute Senses, Counter Attack, CCW, and Special Weapon Discount is worth 1 point (Sister + 1 point = Grey Hunter). There is nothing new here.

 

_______________________________

To get back on topic, he are starting to understand mechanics for basic CSM. Right once the codex is out (they aren't different than their current version), we should have a thread dedicated to them.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Has anyone else noticed that Daemon Princes now have to take a mark? What does that mean for the existing undivided princes in the fluff (looking at you Lorgar and Pertuarbo)?

 

Also what happens if a unmarked character is promoted to daemon prince via the new table? Will he get a mark of remain unmarked?

 

I suppose you exchange your character for a "standard DP" with no upgrade, just my guess, though.

 

Anyway it seems even special characters like Abaddon have to roll on the boon table. If it's true I suspect a Dark Apostole should follow Abaddon: I don't want my super badass and expensive warlord to be turned into a spawn because I was unlucky. Dark Apostole allows you to reroll on the boon table.

[Sception]

Anyway it seems even special characters like Abaddon have to roll on the boon table. If it's true I suspect a Dark Apostole should follow Abaddon: I don't want my super badass and expensive warlord to be turned into a spawn because I was unlucky. Dark Apostole allows you to reroll on the boon table.

If they don't keep their gear, weapons, and special rules, you don't want abby turning into a Prince, either. It would be a downgrade.

 

Really, it's not clear at all how turning into a prince works? Do you get the stat line, but keep your stuff? Do you get to equip it with whatever a prince can normally take? Do you just equip it with the options a prince must take? Do you get a naked prince without even obligatory upgrades?

 

Does an undivided guy gain a mark? Does an aligned guy keep his mark, or can he wind up with a different mark if your prince model is clearly dedicated to another alignment?

 

Meh. Cool concept, but a lot of hassle, and for some characters (abby in particular), that roll should have been optional.

 

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I was hoping I was reading that bit about prince marks wrong - my page was blurry. Is it really 'must'? That's so annoying. There are multiple cannon undivided princes (not only the unaligned daemon primarchs, but also Belakor in fantasy. That's just off the top of my head, and I'm not exactly a fluff guru. Used to be, an undivided prince leading a force of daemons or chaos worshippers of various alignments was a thing.

 

This is really just annoying.

 

----------------------

 

Looking over the Abaddon page, it seems he doesn't make Chosen troops after all. Oh well, I guess that's a couple new squads I don't need to worry about buying/painting/finding a use for after all. My elite choices are already full past bursting with terminators, dreadnoughts, possessed, and cult marines.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Anyway it seems even special characters like Abaddon have to roll on the boon table. If it's true I suspect a Dark Apostole should follow Abaddon: I don't want my super badass and expensive warlord to be turned into a spawn because I was unlucky. Dark Apostole allows you to reroll on the boon table.

If they don't keep their gear, weapons, and special rules, you don't want abby turning into a Prince, either. It would be a downgrade.

 

Really, it's not clear at all how turning into a prince works? Do you get the stat line, but keep your stuff? Do you get to equip it with whatever a prince can normally take? Do you just equip it with the options a prince must take? Do you get a naked prince without even obligatory upgrades?

 

Does an undivided guy gain a mark? Does an aligned guy keep his mark, or can he wind up with a different mark if your prince model is clearly dedicated to another alignment?

 

Meh. Cool concept, but a lot of hassle, and for some characters (abby in particular), that roll should have been optional.

 

Indeed I was thinking about the same: I don't want to turn Abaddon into a DP. I just forgot to include the thought in the previous post :huh:

I really hope the Codex will exaplain the "Daemon Prince" conversion in details; telling us what happen to the gear, for example.

 

There are several upgrades that may give a character like Abaddon some benefit (recover/+1 wound; STR increase, attack with Instant death), some will be useless (Eternal warrior since he already has that rule) other highly prejudicial (spawn and possible even DP conversion).

 

EDIT:

 

Looking over the Abaddon page, it seems he doesn't make Chosen troops after all. Oh well, I guess that's a couple new squads I don't need to worry about buying/painting/finding a use for after all. My elite choices are already full past bursting with terminators, dreadnoughts, possessed, and cult marines.

 

Such FOC modifications are usually written in the army list entry for the given character not in the character main page (the one with fluff)... at least that's what they did in the past.

[Iron Sage]

Every single soul that has commented upon abbadon and has glanced through the book, claims that he does indeed make Chosen troops, so I would not worry abut that.

 

Daemon princes must indeed take marks and it costs 25 points or so for one, so, yes slightly dissapointing, but we should know by now that it will be impossible to run a cconservativly costed Daemon prince (costs 145 points and then you have to pay extra for a mark on top of that before any other upgrades). Either you pour points into him and make him a beast, or you run him almost naked and then he will certainly not be worth it and just be shot down. So to run daemon princes, it seems as if we must pay between 230 to 300 points.

I am sceptical (if daemon princes will be at all worth it), but maybe the daemon armory has something interesting. For instance, if there is a shooting weapon, a nurgle prince without wings might be viable since it has shrouded.)

[Sception]

I'm not concerned about cost. I have no problems dropping 250+ points on a prince. I'm annoyed at the forced alignment because my prince is unaligned and always has been, like my army, and like several cannon daemon princes in the fluff. Being forced to give him a mark is seriously cramping his style.

[Iron Sage]

I'm not concerned about cost. I have no problems dropping 250+ points on a prince. I'm annoyed at the forced alignment because my prince is unaligned and always has been, like my army, and like several cannon daemon princes in the fluff. Being forced to give him a mark is seriously cramping his style.

 

I agree. Seems they only gain an aspect of the great powers in this book. But for whats its worth, you can and should, run "counts as". I.e. "My Drax `Zathal has powers simmilar to Khornate daemons due to blahblah"

 

But sure, I understand your annoyance

[diabloelmo]

Just noticed that Power Lances have an entry in the profile page. Maybe our bikers will be able to take them? Please let this be a thing.

[Feste]

I'm not concerned about cost. I have no problems dropping 250+ points on a prince. I'm annoyed at the forced alignment because my prince is unaligned and always has been, like my army, and like several cannon daemon princes in the fluff. Being forced to give him a mark is seriously cramping his style.

 

I agree. Seems they only gain an aspect of the great powers in this book. But for whats its worth, you can and should, run "counts as". I.e. "My Drax `Zathal has powers simmilar to Khornate daemons due to blahblah"

 

But sure, I understand your annoyance

It's a shame, but it's very similar to how A D-B has been describing unaligned Chaos for a little while now. You might need to look into sorting out some form of background for him that obscures the alignment and which allows you to bounce the marks around if you want.

 

Not to derail things too much, I've been curious for a while now how Gork and Mork fit into this brave, new warp of everything flowing through the 4 God and only them.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Anyway it seems even special characters like Abaddon have to roll on the boon table. If it's true I suspect a Dark Apostole should follow Abaddon: I don't want my super badass and expensive warlord to be turned into a spawn because I was unlucky. Dark Apostole allows you to reroll on the boon table.

If they don't keep their gear, weapons, and special rules, you don't want abby turning into a Prince, either. It would be a downgrade.

 

Really, it's not clear at all how turning into a prince works? Do you get the stat line, but keep your stuff? Do you get to equip it with whatever a prince can normally take? Do you just equip it with the options a prince must take? Do you get a naked prince without even obligatory upgrades?

 

Does an undivided guy gain a mark? Does an aligned guy keep his mark, or can he wind up with a different mark if your prince model is clearly dedicated to another alignment?

 

Meh. Cool concept, but a lot of hassle, and for some characters (abby in particular), that roll should have been optional.

 

Indeed I was thinking about the same: I don't want to turn Abaddon into a DP. I just forgot to include the thought in the previous post ;)

I really hope the Codex will exaplain the "Daemon Prince" conversion in details; telling us what happen to the gear, for example.

 

There are several upgrades that may give a character like Abaddon some benefit (recover/+1 wound; STR increase, attack with Instant death), some will be useless (Eternal warrior since he already has that rule) other highly prejudicial (spawn and possible even DP conversion).

 

EDIT:

 

Looking over the Abaddon page, it seems he doesn't make Chosen troops after all. Oh well, I guess that's a couple new squads I don't need to worry about buying/painting/finding a use for after all. My elite choices are already full past bursting with terminators, dreadnoughts, possessed, and cult marines.

 

Such FOC modifications are usually written in the army list entry for the given character not in the character main page (the one with fluff)... at least that's what they did in the past.

 

This. Yup. Don't count it out yet.

 

 

Any word on taking 2+ armor on lords, and more importantly Champions?

[Lexington]

I'm annoyed at the forced alignment because my prince is unaligned and always has been, like my army, and like several cannon daemon princes in the fluff. Being forced to give him a mark is seriously cramping his style.

To be fair, undivided Daemon Princes never made a ton of sense, background-wise. Gods elevate mortals, not the foggy concept of "Chaos" as a whole.

 

Still, understandably frustrating if it was a concept you played with previously.

[Killax]

It's a pitty for those who liked the Undivided and the possible effects of "lesser Chaos Gods or All of them".

However as mentioned above it was quite weird allready when the option was there.

 

Who other than one of the "big" Gods would lend their power and upgrade their champion to be an avatar of themselves?

[Feste]

It's a pitty for those who liked the Undivided and the possible effects of "lesser Chaos Gods or All of them".

However as mentioned above it was quite weird allready when the option was there.

 

Who other than one of the "big" Gods would lend their power and upgrade their champion to be an avatar of themselves?

Well the current view seems to be that there is no-one other than the big 4 and everything else is simply a facet of that. I'd possibly like to see something which suggested the big 4 themselves were simply puppets of the Warp but that's a little nebulous. Nothing stopping you from working that into your own background though.

[Killax]

It's a pitty for those who liked the Undivided and the possible effects of "lesser Chaos Gods or All of them".

However as mentioned above it was quite weird allready when the option was there.

 

Who other than one of the "big" Gods would lend their power and upgrade their champion to be an avatar of themselves?

Well the current view seems to be that there is no-one other than the big 4 and everything else is simply a facet of that. I'd possibly like to see something which suggested the big 4 themselves were simply puppets of the Warp but that's a little nebulous. Nothing stopping you from working that into your own background though.

 

Well, I am a fan of that. The Chaos gods make war amongst themselves and I cannot image a lesser Demigod being able to start his/her own little patron without the others meddling with that.

 

Now, offcourse, it's not like you HAVE TO thake a Daemon Prince, Abbandon is the mr. Undivided man and quite choppy.

[Ammonius]

It's a pitty for those who liked the Undivided and the possible effects of "lesser Chaos Gods or All of them".

However as mentioned above it was quite weird allready when the option was there.

 

Who other than one of the "big" Gods would lend their power and upgrade their champion to be an avatar of themselves?

Well the current view seems to be that there is no-one other than the big 4 and everything else is simply a facet of that. I'd possibly like to see something which suggested the big 4 themselves were simply puppets of the Warp but that's a little nebulous. Nothing stopping you from working that into your own background though.

 

Well, I am a fan of that. The Chaos gods make war amongst themselves and I cannot image a lesser Demigod being able to start his/her own little patron without the others meddling with that.

 

Now, offcourse, it's not like you HAVE TO thake a Daemon Prince, Abbandon is the mr. Undivided man and quite choppy.

I think that Abbaddon is being changed from "Mr. Undivided" to "Mr. Everybody at once"

[Killax]

I think that Abbaddon is being changed from "Mr. Undivided" to "Mr. Everybody at once"

 

Which is pretty much the same, to be honest.

 

In WFB we have Archaon, same story, same uniter, different time line.

 

Cheers,

[Lexington]

I think that Abbaddon is being changed from "Mr. Undivided" to "Mr. Everybody at once"

This is as it's supposed to be, I think. Back in 2nd Edition, when Abbadon first crawled from the primordial soup, he was marked by all four gods. The "Mark of Chaos Ascendent" was a later invention, meant to streamline this effect.

 

(...and I'm "Mr. Pedant" today, apparently. Grah! Quail, mortals, before the hellish legions of my irritating minutiae!)

[Sception]

To be fair, undivided Daemon Princes never made a ton of sense, background-wise. Gods elevate mortals, not the foggy concept of "Chaos" as a whole.

 

And yet we had multiple cannon undivided princes. Tell me, which power does Peturabo bend knee to? Which of the god's is Lorgar's favorite, above and beyond all the others? Which aspect of chaos does he hate and revile as its opposite?

[Lexington]

And yet we had multiple cannon undivided princes. Tell me, which power does Peturabo bend knee to? Which of the god's is Lorgar's favorite, above and beyond all the others? Which aspect of chaos does he hate and revile as its opposite?

That's always been my question, too. One of the many reasons I was never wild about the Index Astartes series was that it elevated all living Primarchs to Daemon Princes, without ever explaining just what power it was that did so. Then we had Undivided Princes running around in Dawn of War and the like, since there was precedent. It doesn't make any sense with 40K metaphysics.

 

Maybe we'll see this rectified in later Horus Heresy novels? Who knows. As-is, it's just one of those weird quirks of a multi-decade license that's been pulled in different directions by financial and in-game priorities.