Tactics vs Space Wolves

[il-Fieres]

Hi guys,

 

I've recently started Dark Angels following the release of the Dark Vengeance box set and am a new comer to 40K (I was waiting for 6th edition to start 40K and being a bike fan Dark Angels seemed the way to go).

 

I was wondering wheter there is a post where I could find some generic tips for playing against Space Wolves. I'm taking part in my first 40K tournament, and it seems that each SW unit I check has some rule which gives it some awesome ability & no downside (Acute Senses, Counter Attack, Fire Control, etc.

 

I tried the Search function but nothing turned up.

 

Cheers

[Haranin]

From a deathwing perspective, its the double melta/plasma in the tacticals that give you headaches.

 

If you are DW, landraiders and termies do a number on the wolves. Use ranged weapons to pop his rhinos; once he is on foot, play the mission.

 

Wolf lords on wolves need some attention to attrite the unit down before cc. Hammernators do just fine against them.

 

SW aren't that bad. BA, GK are much worse.

[Cypher 102]

Yes, the Space Wolves and other armies have a lot of interesting rules with little or no drawback, especially compared to Dark Angels. Our codex was the victim of the design studio getting into a less is more phase which fell flat on its face. Hopefully this will be corrected soon enough with a new codex.

[AngelVeto]

I'm actually going to be running a game against my "bro" and his wolves later in the week. an 1850 army. I posted a army list thread here http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=261602

 

with a couple different theories and ideas. either way I will let you know how it pans out on Saturday after the battle.

[il-Fieres]

Cheers mate & wish you good luck for the battle. Looking forward to your feedback.

 

My list is a bit different as I'm running 2 Ravenwing squads of 6 bikes & an attack bike, 1 Squad of 2 Land Speeders, 1 Deathwing, 2 Razorbacks, 1 Dreadnought & 2 Squads of 10 Troops. (Would have more Ravenwing but 4 sets of Dark Vengeance are enough) :) I'm trying a bit of 'everything' to see what fits my style of play.

[LidlessPraetor]

One of the Achilles' heels of the wolf army is their generally poor leadership. It's in that regard that I've had good success against them with relatively cheap whirlwinds forcing morale checks and pinning tests. It might not be the most reliable way to deal with an opponent, but it's something that you can work into your gameplan. You do still have to find a way to deal with their almost obligatory death star unit that won't have problems with leadership.

[Sviar]

whirlwinds forcing morale checks and pinning tests. It might not be the most reliable way to deal with an opponent, but it's something that you can work into your gameplan.

 

Very true.

 

Their Longfangs is always a bit back on the gamingboard, to take them out or at least decimate them I'd use a DP to land near them witha 10 man tac squad, wisely choose 2 heavy weapons.

[AngelVeto]

What's a death star unit? (still trying to learn all the acronyms and nicknames you guys use, as I haven't played since third Ed)

[elphilo]

What's a death star unit? (still trying to learn all the acronyms and nicknames you guys use, as I haven't played since third Ed)

 

A death star is pretty much a really hard to defeat unit. And only a few codexes can do a death star type unit. With the GK it's Draigo and a unit of paladins, with SW it's Logan and a unit of Wolf Guard in Terminator armor. With the DA it's pretty much Belial and his upgraded squad, oh and apparently there is a harlistar with Eldrad and harlequins. Essentially a unit that you don't want to really engage with. Like the Death Star from Star Wars.

 

I'm sure someone can give you greater detail, but that's the gist of.

[Ordo Machinum]

What's a death star unit? (still trying to learn all the acronyms and nicknames you guys use, as I haven't played since third Ed)

Simply put, a unit in 40K that smashes though everything it comes up against and is very hard to stop.

 

[updt: Whoops, as just said by elphilo above]

 

whirlwinds forcing morale checks and pinning tests. It might not be the most reliable way to deal with an opponent, but it's something that you can work into your gameplan.

Very true.

 

Their Longfangs is always a bit back on the gamingboard, to take them out or at least decimate them I'd use a DP to land near them witha 10 man tac squad, wisely choose 2 heavy weapons.

 

He probably means a DEV squad with 2 hvy wpns, as TACs can only have 1 per squad.

[AngelVeto]

now why is Belial and his squad considered a deathstar?

 

In my list Im running him with a squad of TH/SS with an ass cannon/chain fist and an apothecary with a chainfist, but I didnt upgrade anyone to a standard bearer.

[elphilo]

now why is Belial and his squad considered a deathstar?

 

In my list Im running him with a squad of TH/SS with an ass cannon/chain fist and an apothecary with a chainfist, but I didnt upgrade anyone to a standard bearer.

 

He might not have the shooty aspect of a Death Star like a unit of paladins do. But I consider him and his unit a Death Star because no one wants to get close to them. They are an extremely tough unit to take down. And I've had one game where my dice rolling was on fire and over 1000 points being dedicated to a combat was the only way to take it down.

 

What's a death star unit? (still trying to learn all the acronyms and nicknames you guys use, as I haven't played since third Ed)

Simply put, a unit in 40K that smashes though everything it comes up against and is very hard to stop.

 

[updt: Whoops, as just said by elphilo above]

 

Beat you by a full minute :lol:

[Jehoel]

Most deathstars are a cc nightmare and Belial and his upgraded command squad with TH/SS is one, even more so with a I-chap added.

 

> Ninjad! :lol:

[elphilo]

Most deathstars are a cc nightmare and Belial and his upgraded command squad with TH/SS is one, even more so with a I-chap added.

 

> Ninjad! :lol:

 

Change that Chaplain to a Librarian for prescience and then I'd agree with you ;)

 

Chaplains are in a weird place right now :lol:

[cypherthefallenangel]

Well baliel and his command squad alone isn't really a deathstar. If you add an interogator chaplain, banner, apothecary and stick them in a crusader NOW you have a deathstar.

Baliel w/ lclaws(6x i5 s4 ap3 attacks)

I chaplain w/ TDA (5x i5 s6 ap4) rerolls for everyone

5x dw terms w/ 3 lc, 2 thss, cml, banner, apoth (15x i4 s4 ap3, 8x i1 s8 ap2) FNP and +1A for all.

All riding safely in a crusader so you have a great chance of getting where you need to be and kicking the crap outa something.

815pts.

[elphilo]

I chaplain w/ TDA (5x i5 s6 ap4) rerolls for everyone .

The Librarian does the re-rolls more reliably than the Chaplain does. ;)

 

Like I said before Chaplains are in a weird place right now. <_<

[Jehoel]

Well baliel and his command squad alone isn't really a deathstar. If you add an interogator chaplain, banner, apothecary and stick them in a crusader NOW you have a deathstar.

Baliel w/ lclaws(6x i5 s4 ap3 attacks)

I chaplain w/ TDA (5x i5 s6 ap4) rerolls for everyone

5x dw terms w/ 3 lc, 2 thss, cml, banner, apoth (15x i4 s4 ap3, 8x i1 s8 ap2) FNP and +1A for all.

All riding safely in a crusader so you have a great chance of getting where you need to be and kicking the crap outa something.

815pts.

I did say "upgraded" command squad, after all. Yes, the chaplain isn't as top tier as they used to be. Either way, chaplain or librarian, put them in TDA and they make Belial and his "upgraded" command squad a deathstar. But I will have to disagree on the crusader being required for them to be a deathstar. Mobility is nice, but Belial and unit are still a terror wether they footslog, DWA, or ride in a crusader.

[cypherthefallenangel]

I chaplain w/ TDA (5x i5 s6 ap4) rerolls for everyone .

The Librarian does the re-rolls more reliably than the Chaplain does. :o

 

Like I said before Chaplains are in a weird place right now. :woot:

Chaplains have more wounds and attacks. Chaplains haven't changed since 5th. The libbies just got better, slightly.

Against tyrnid (shadows of the warp), wolfs( runes) and eldar our ld9 libbies are not reliable. The average of three dice is 10. The chaplain works every time you assault.

I did say "upgraded" command squad, after all. Yes, the chaplain isn't as top tier as they used to be. Either way, chaplain or librarian, put them in TDA and they make Belial and his "upgraded" command squad a deathstar. But I will have to disagree on the crusader being required for them to be a deathstar. Mobility is nice, but Belial and unit are still a terror wether they footslog, DWA, or ride in a crusader.

The crusader almost guarantees that you will assault the target enemy and at full strength. Ive run this deathstar many times and have always had the best results with a crusader.

[elphilo]

I chaplain w/ TDA (5x i5 s6 ap4) rerolls for everyone .

The Librarian does the re-rolls more reliably than the Chaplain does. :)

 

Like I said before Chaplains are in a weird place right now. :)

Chaplains have more wounds and attacks. Chaplains haven't changed since 5th. The libbies just got better, slightly.

Against tyrnid (shadows of the warp), wolfs( runes) and eldar our ld9 libbies are not reliable. The average of three dice is 10. The chaplain works every time you assault.

 

While the Chaplain does get one more wound, they have the same attacks in TDA (at least that is what Army Builder is saying I don't have my codex on me at the moment).

 

And personally I would take the Librarian over the Chaplain, he is just more versatile. This isn't a perfect world where you're always getting the charge. Sometimes you get charged and having that re-roll then is well worth the extra wound the Chaplain gets. Now I can't say what I would do against Nid/Wolfs/Eldar. My Nid player friend has switched to Necrons. My Wolf and Eldar playing friends have stopped playing, so I don't have much experience fighting against them. I'd probably still run the Librarian and just grit my teeth through it.

 

It sucks, I love Chaplains, I want them to be a viable HQ choice for us. But as it sits, I feel they are not.

 

To each his own I suppose. :)

[Slim]

Beating Space Wolves seems to come down to slowing and shooting the hand-to-hand units - combat squads can help here as you can feed their death star units to slow them from getting to objectives. Meanwhile, you need to neutralise the Long Fangs at the back - Deathwing Assault nearby with the bikes as homing beacons should cause some concern...

 

Generally, with the current codex, you can't really go unit-for-unit with the Space Wolves, so you need to pick your battles and force them to play your game through a mixture of well-placed forward movement and standing back in other areas to shoot.

[il-Fieres]

Beating Space Wolves seems to come down to slowing and shooting the hand-to-hand units - combat squads can help here as you can feed their death star units to slow them from getting to objectives. Meanwhile, you need to neutralise the Long Fangs at the back - Deathwing Assault nearby with the bikes as homing beacons should cause some concern...

 

I was considering this tactic, splitting my Ravenwing into 3 bike squads and going for reserves & scouting moves (depending on the mission & who deploys first of course). A Deathwing assault should help countering at least one of his 3 Long Fang units (each with 5 missile launchers), whilst the scouting bikes & assault bikes can focus fire on the other two units. With 2 meltas & a plasma pistol in each 6 bike squad and a multi-melta on the assault bikes, I SHOULD whittle down the unit enough to be able to handle it with an assault.

 

In the meantime, all my las-cannons & long range shooting will be focused on the thunder cavalry (2 units & wolf lord) one unit at a time to whittle it down & hopefully remove the Storm Shield. Incidentally, can the Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf cavalry join one of the other units (sorry for the noob question)?

 

Generally, with the current codex, you can't really go unit-for-unit with the Space Wolves, so you need to pick your battles and force them to play your game through a mixture of well-placed forward movement and standing back in other areas to shoot.

 

Agreed. Cheers for the good feedback.

[Flake]

Good thread topic. I'm playing my first match up against SW's next week so this is all good advice.

 

If I can piggy back a question onto this thread: What DA tactics and HQ would you guys recommend vs. Space Wolves at 1000 points?

[pueriexdeus]

At 1000 points your looking at needing to develop the most A3 weapons you can. At the same time having more Troops and the ability to be mobile.

 

My load for a 1000 point game would be:

 

Libbi in PA

Tac Sqd of 5; SGT BP/CS, Flmr

Tac Sqd of 10; SGT PF, ML/PG. Cmbt Sqd them. Half with ML stays on your OBJ

Rzrbk, TLLC, HKM, PMSB

Dev Sqd of 5; 2x HB & 2x PC

Dev Sqd of 5; 2x LC & 2x ML

RWSS of One; TML & MM

 

Tactica:

Place one Cmbt Tac Sqd w/ML, and both Devs on you Obj.

Prep one Cmbt Sqd in the Rzrbk, have the Libbie and the other Tac Cmbt Sqd ready to follow on foot behind the Rzrbk, with the LST in support.

Let the impatient Wolf move first and kill his Transports at range with your long range firepower. Force him to foot-slog.

Develop the situation.

Push your mobile forces into his Obj, use cover and feint.

[Slim]

Incidentally, can the Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf cavalry join one of the other units (sorry for the noob question)?

 

Not as far as I am aware - although I don't have the codex to hand. As regards the Thunderwolf cavalry - I found that they can be taken down by weight of bolter fire - although you need to combat squad so that, unless they multi-assault, they can't tie up entire units...

 

In effect, they may easily take down one five-man squad on the charge, but that then leaves them surrounded by other combat squads to open fire. You would ideally whittle them down before they hit your lines and you need you units to work in concert with one-another.

 

Also remember to play to the objectives and keep a track on the turns. You only need to stand for 5-7 turns, so play to that time-frame - and don't forget the secondary objectives. Use your bikes to grab line-breaker and always try to find an easy kill in the first turn for first blood.

[Flake]

At 1000 points your looking at needing to develop the most A3 weapons you can. At the same time having more Troops and the ability to be mobile.

 

*lists*

 

I like your idea of going Librarian for HQ. DA makes me go Hero Hammer so much that sometimes I forget about the generic HQs. But the 15 scoring bodies you listed scares the pants off me. DA Devestators just seem too expensive to try and match Space Wolves Long Fangs. If I were to take your list but drop the devestator squads, what would you recommend I do with those points?