New Thousand Sons

[Iron Sage]

I have to say that Thousand Sons and even a pure Thousand Sons army was never and still in 6th ed isn't "trash". 4 squads of relentless AP3 bolters with a force weapon and a psychic power in each. 2-3 squads of obliterators (counts as sorcerers), chosen squads with special weapons to outflank and a sorcerer or two with wings and wind of chaos, warptime or gift...turtle up and move around in one giant blue and gold brick of AP2/3 death

 

....trash?? I think not.

 

p.s. ally them now with daemons, especially screamers and you get some seriously horrendous goodness!

 

Agreed. You just have to use them very tactically. They are special forces, not line infantry. IMO they cost a point too much, but no crisis.

 

They will need support though and I believe that cultists will add nicely to a tzeentch/sons themed army.

[Iron Sage]

I'm not comparing GK to TS though...whatever other codices get I don't have access to as a TS so it's immaterial

 

I'm just pointing out what TS do well and their plus points. Like I mentioned above....every weapon is either AP2 or 3 with the ability in the list to outflank and to threaten ICs with force weapons and a 4+ or 5+ inv on every model...it's not fool proof nor am I saying it's uber awesome but it sure ain't bad. Personally I've never thought the codex sucked.

 

And as an aside - I've gone toe to toe with GKs and matched up perfectly against them, all close games, some wins some losses but never hopelessly outclassed.

 

Eh, I didn't said they're outclassed, but compared to new GK, they're not Slow & Purposeful, they have S5 assault weapons which in most cases is better than AP3 bolters, Psycannons, every single one of them has power weapon, you don't lose your Psyker on one wound (or even unlucky bonus roll if you happen to kill some Sarge), etc. etc.

 

I love how Sons look, tried to play with them, but... Honestly, I think they are overpriced, and if someone good like Ward wrote the book, TS trooper would cost 20 points, Ahriman at best 200, there would be rubric Terminators, Havoks, and they would get some flavorful spells and gear. Now, there are barely any changes from 4th Ed Chaos ;)

 

As it is, Ahriman has barely better statline than GK Paladin, which costs 5 times less, or SM Librarian, 2.5 times less. Yes, he is Psyker level 4, but he has only 4++ and no FNP, making him porcelain cannon. He is my favourite Chaos mini, I can't wrap my head how something costing the same as Land Raider has to fear fighting SM Sergeant with Power Sword - Magnus is apparently too cheap to give his Chief Librarian some Artificer gear or even stupid Iron Halo IoM seems to give like candy :)

 

You have apparantly missed his greatest asset, or at least comparable in power to his psyker lv, and that is Master of Deception.

 

As for oblits, they could be Instant killed in 5ed as well, and now they can take a mark (they previously could not), so your point is very moot on them.

 

Very many Chaos players are complaining about the Sons, but I have seen NO ONE complain about Ahriman. Perhaps you should read up on him again.

 

As for the retarded Mat Ward codices, I am, I confess, trying to pretend that they do not exist.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

With ward.... let's not go there okay?

[Iron Sage]

With ward.... let's not go there okay?

 

Agreed:)

[Ardune]

Very many Chaos players are complaining about the Sons, but I have seen NO ONE complain about Ahriman. Perhaps you should read up on him again.

 

I'll go ahead and start then... :).

 

His AP4 staff (without concussive, btw) gives him a major hole in melee, especially considering the fact that he must issue and accept challenges. For his hefty point cost, I would have expected something of a more complete package.

[Iron Sage]

Very many Chaos players are complaining about the Sons, but I have seen NO ONE complain about Ahriman. Perhaps you should read up on him again.

 

I'll go ahead and start then... :lol:.

 

His AP4 staff (without concussive, btw) gives him a major hole in melee, especially considering the fact that he must issue and accept challenges. For his hefty point cost, I would have expected something of a more complete package.

 

Fair enough, and thats a very legitimate complaint I admit.

Str 6, AP 4, force, while not exactly what I would call weak, leaves something to be desired indeed. Question is though, with his abillities and specialization, is melee against marines/equalent and TDA where you want him? Obviously sometimes this cannot be avoided I agree.

 

I still think he is very good though. I really dont mind the cost. He is a tad expensive, and its true that Huron gets Master of Deception much cheaper, but in particular in a sons build, he has surely far more synergy than huron does.

 

Bottom line is that I think he is a very good special character, even though expensive.

[Irbis]

You have apparantly missed his greatest asset, or at least comparable in power to his psyker lv, and that is Master of Deception.

And? Grey Knight Grand Master gives his units Scouts. You infiltrate, GK laugh and redeploy. Except, he is also much cheaper and would slice Ahriman to ribbons in combat.

 

As for oblits, they could be Instant killed in 5ed as well, and now they can take a mark (they previously could not), so your point is very moot on them.

Wrong. Oblits in 6th ed were T5 requiring S10 for ID. Now? You can easily ID them with anything S8, not to mention easier wounds with everything else. You have to pay for MoN to equal old ones, also ruining army theme if you happen to use non-Nurgle army.

 

Very many Chaos players are complaining about the Sons, but I have seen NO ONE complain about Ahriman. Perhaps you should read up on him again.

Yeah, I did. Unlike them, I actually have Codex and played test game. Compared to loyalist characters, he sucks. Mephiston, same price range, so far better it isn't even funny. Heck, Rune Priest, 40% of Ahriman's points, wins by how much more he does for his army.

 

Hell, generic Sorcerer from new CSM Codex handily beats His Ahrimanness by cost effectiveness.

 

Let's face it, once newness wears out, there will be just gnashing of the teeth and envy at other Codices, again. Compare TS to SM and BA Sternguard - also AP3 bolters, but for less and with so much more options (A2, Combi-Meltas, Drop Pod to name one) TS can but weep they are no longer worthy of Spiritual Liege :cuss

 

As for the retarded Mat Ward codices, I am, I confess, trying to pretend that they do not exist.

Yeah, only best, most balanced codices offering multiple viable builds. I still hear Sisters of Battle sobbing Ward didn't wrote them, same with Tyranids, I can even quote a lot of posters here who dumped CSM in favor of Ward Codices counts-as. Sooo bad :cuss

[Iron Sage]

Eh, I was about to answer you seriously, but your fanatical defence of the most attrocious codex writer in the history of man, is more than a bit offputting to put it mildly. His codices are completly horrible and extremly overpowered in every way, so we can`t agree I fear.

 

Edit: Honestly tempting to think you are trolling.

[Ethrion]

You have apparantly missed his greatest asset, or at least comparable in power to his psyker lv, and that is Master of Deception.

And? Grey Knight Grand Master gives his units Scouts. You infiltrate, GK laugh and redeploy. Except, he is also much cheaper and would slice Ahriman to ribbons in combat.

 

As for oblits, they could be Instant killed in 5ed as well, and now they can take a mark (they previously could not), so your point is very moot on them.

Wrong. Oblits in 6th ed were T5 requiring S10 for ID. Now? You can easily ID them with anything S8, not to mention easier wounds with everything else. You have to pay for MoN to equal old ones, also ruining army theme if you happen to use non-Nurgle army.

 

Okay okay we get it, you like the GK codex but we are not comparing everything with what the GK codex can do. By highlighting the good points in the chaos codex and/or Ahriman doesn't mean we are saying they are better than GK we are just saying "these are the good points about what we can take". It's not like we all sit around and think "awww GK can do everything better than us, lets all stop playing Thousand Sons and start collecting GK. And as an aside, Ahriman is not supposed to be a close combat monster so I think it's fine he is represented as he is. Plus Ahriman never really would deploy into a batte in the fluff anyway so it's perfectly reasonable to build your own sorcerer as one of his liutenants.

 

As for the obliterators, I think you are getting your editions mixed up - in the 3.5 codex obliterators were T5 and 70pts, then in 4th they became T4 and 75pts. Now they are back to 70pts and T4 but we now have the option to pay for them to get back to T5 for 76pts. So okay, we are 1pt more than last time but considering that 1pt is making the obliterator T5 I think that's fair.

 

Oh but wait, GK have psyfilemen dreadnoughts which are 4 shots twin-linked S8....I'd best just stop playing chaos all together :)

[Ardune]

And as an aside, Ahriman is not supposed to be a close combat monster so I think it's fine he is represented as he is. Plus Ahriman never really would deploy into a batte in the fluff anyway so it's perfectly reasonable to build your own sorcerer as one of his liutenants.

 

Yeah, I was very excited about Ahriman until I realized how anemic his CC abilities were. I'm of the mind that 2x ML3 Sorcerers would be a better investment for the points. They come out ~45 points more expensive but considering they get 6 powers total, I think it's worth it.

[Dark Scipio]

I find his lacking in melee very fitting. Hoever I also dont like him in the first place, but I think he is a great addition to any Sons army (If you join him and his renegades. :P ;)) as Sons are all not made for close combat.

 

 

I think Sons are better just because +15 points for Sould Blaze on the Bolters is god choice and adds a good punch against Terminators or hordes that dont get hurt so much by the AP3. And the new Beam S8 AP 1 witchcraft is also better than the old one.

[Iron Sage]

You have apparantly missed his greatest asset, or at least comparable in power to his psyker lv, and that is Master of Deception.

And? Grey Knight Grand Master gives his units Scouts. You infiltrate, GK laugh and redeploy. Except, he is also much cheaper and would slice Ahriman to ribbons in combat.

 

As for oblits, they could be Instant killed in 5ed as well, and now they can take a mark (they previously could not), so your point is very moot on them.

Wrong. Oblits in 6th ed were T5 requiring S10 for ID. Now? You can easily ID them with anything S8, not to mention easier wounds with everything else. You have to pay for MoN to equal old ones, also ruining army theme if you happen to use non-Nurgle army.

 

Okay okay we get it, you like the GK codex but we are not comparing everything with what the GK codex can do. By highlighting the good points in the chaos codex and/or Ahriman doesn't mean we are saying they are better than GK we are just saying "these are the good points about what we can take". It's not like we all sit around and think "awww GK can do everything better than us, lets all stop playing Thousand Sons and start collecting GK. And as an aside, Ahriman is not supposed to be a close combat monster so I think it's fine he is represented as he is. Plus Ahriman never really would deploy into a batte in the fluff anyway so it's perfectly reasonable to build your own sorcerer as one of his liutenants.

 

As for the obliterators, I think you are getting your editions mixed up - in the 3.5 codex obliterators were T5 and 70pts, then in 4th they became T4 and 75pts. Now they are back to 70pts and T4 but we now have the option to pay for them to get back to T5 for 76pts. So okay, we are 1pt more than last time but considering that 1pt is making the obliterator T5 I think that's fair.

 

Oh but wait, GK have psyfilemen dreadnoughts which are 4 shots twin-linked S8....I'd best just stop playing chaos all together :wink:

 

Excellent retort :)

 

I am ashamed to say that I did not have the patience.

[Iron Sage]

And as an aside, Ahriman is not supposed to be a close combat monster so I think it's fine he is represented as he is. Plus Ahriman never really would deploy into a batte in the fluff anyway so it's perfectly reasonable to build your own sorcerer as one of his liutenants.

 

Yeah, I was very excited about Ahriman until I realized how anemic his CC abilities were. I'm of the mind that 2x ML3 Sorcerers would be a better investment for the points. They come out ~45 points more expensive but considering they get 6 powers total, I think it's worth it.

 

I think he is quite good.

 

But he is not good in every force. But in certain builds, his psycich dakka will be powerful alongside the infiltrate etc.

[Ghostcat]

The best thing about Ahirman is the 1 unit relaible infiltrate. It's not worth his points cost, a L3 sorc pretty much does everything else he does.

 

Ksons are too expensive for what they do, especially compared to options from other dexs.

 

Say what you will but the Matt Ward GK codex is a much better codex in terms of synergy and there are few bad units or combinations. You may call it overpowerd, I think all dex's should live up to that high standard. I won't argue it here though, you obviously have your mind made up about it.

 

In my opinion, this chaos dex has relaly missed a ton of opportunity to make the Ksons a decent unit. I had high hopes, I will still try and play them, but it's pretty obvious they pay a premium for their mediocre abilities.

[Iron Sage]

The best thing about Ahirman is the 1 unit relaible infiltrate. It's not worth his points cost, a L3 sorc pretty much does everything else he does.

 

Ksons are too expensive for what they do, especially compared to options from other dexs.

 

Say what you will but the Matt Ward GK codex is a much better codex in terms of synergy and there are few bad units or combinations. You may call it overpowerd, I think all dex's should live up to that high standard. I won't argue it here though, you obviously have your mind made up about it.

 

In my opinion, this chaos dex has relaly missed a ton of opportunity to make the Ksons a decent unit. I had high hopes, I will still try and play them, but it's pretty obvious they pay a premium for their mediocre abilities.

 

It is indeed completly ridiculously overwpowered and unbalanced. You have fair points concerning the sons, but as for ward dex, they all desperatly need to be FAQed and heavilly nerfed. The only way a ward dex can be considered "better" is if one wants unfair advantages, easy wins and imbecile fluff.

 

Our codex seems mostly fine though. Step down in power level from the Ward dexes obviously, but that is how it should be, since he should have been sacked from Games Dev. anyway.

[Hellios]

The best thing about Ahirman is the 1 unit relaible infiltrate. It's not worth his points cost, a L3 sorc pretty much does everything else he does.

 

Ksons are too expensive for what they do, especially compared to options from other dexs.

 

Say what you will but the Matt Ward GK codex is a much better codex in terms of synergy and there are few bad units or combinations. You may call it overpowerd, I think all dex's should live up to that high standard. I won't argue it here though, you obviously have your mind made up about it.

 

In my opinion, this chaos dex has relaly missed a ton of opportunity to make the Ksons a decent unit. I had high hopes, I will still try and play them, but it's pretty obvious they pay a premium for their mediocre abilities.

 

The GK codex has lots of options which is good, some of them however are either too powerful or too cheap. I personally don't mind that Halberds make marines faster, go for it. What I do mind is when a squad of force weapon wielding marines strike before my Eldar/Dark Eldar units before or at the same time as the Eldar themselves... fragile units that rely on going first to survive. Boosting the I of the Eldar would also fix this.

 

However it isn't just me crying everything is too OP or too cheap, If I was doing the codex some of the upgrades would become cheaper, for example the ridiculously overpriced warrior henchmen wargear.

 

On that note the Chaos codex is also not perfect and I think that the dev team have missed a few tricks and got some things slightly wrong. However I want to play some more before I make more judgments.

[Jacinda]

*checks the forum*

PLANET OF SORCERERS

 

*looks at thread title*

New Thousand Sons

 

Whiskey tango foxtrot? Grey Ka-ne-gits are thatta way - vv

[Iron Sage]

*checks the forum*

PLANET OF SORCERERS

 

*looks at thread title*

New Thousand Sons

 

Whiskey tango foxtrot? Grey Ka-ne-gits are thatta way - vv

Lol!

 

Nice one ;)

 

 

As for Grey Knights players in general, please dont come here and troll us with your super codex and compare it to ours, we all understand that its very easy to play with and all that.

[Ghostcat]

I am not trolling, and the only reason I brought up the codex-that-shall-not-be-named is because the comparison was already in this thread. You don't get to bring up the comparison when it only furthers your own point and degrade any other attempts at the same comparison.

 

But enough said about that though, it appears rational discourse about it is not relevant or acceptable here. It's like Isadrio when it comes to the Eldar on 40k online.

 

I want the Ksons to be good, it's my favorite faction for chaos. Some background; I am a 25+ year veteran 40k player and been playing since RT. I know 40k both narrative and tournamet playstyles.

 

They had so many possibilities in this new psychic-heavy edition but we ended up getting saddled with the same burdens of the past: an expensive, inflexible unit with a niche role on the battlefield.

 

I spent hours cleaning and stripping the 40 Ksons I have collected of off ebay over the past year, I was so excited that in this new editon I would open up the possibility of playing an army headed by psykers and their "golem" marines. I sincerely hoped I would have a good option to play my disc marines again (and that was there in the current incarnation of Raptors) in a Ksons list. I thought for certain a point reduction was in order for the Ksons marines. Anyone paying attention to 5th knew where they placed in the heirarcy of chaos as effective units for the cost. Kelly has to know too, he's writing the dex so it will get adjusted, right? Right?!?

 

Not so much.

 

I'm dissapointed, so much so that my Ksons may go back on ebay, or modeled for CSM options. I'm sorry to inflict my opinion on those of you who don't share it, but the title of this thread is: New Thousand Sons, New powers for Aspiring Sorcerers and Sorcerers; so I thought it was an open minded discussion about the strengths and weaknesses of the new units. I know what they can do, but a lot of what I see here is like measuring a car's top speed downhill in a hurricane. yes they can and do work, sometimes very well, but ideal circumstances are rare in pickup or tournament games.

 

The sorceror price reduction is nice, but it comes at a reduction in flexibility from the old codex in 6th. Ahirman is so expensive for what he does, and he doesn't have divination... how fluffy is that?!?! Ksons are the most expensive and least flexible cult unit in the book. Mark of Tzeentch arguably makes a unit a worse psyker, at the very least it makes the Aspiring Lords of magic less flexible than a psyker not aligned with the Lord of Change.

 

I don't wish to rain on anyone's parade, but I for one am not satisfied with the state of the Ksons. I had really hoped for better and given the internet's opinion on them I had expectations that we might see a little brighter future for them.

 

ediT: One thing, are you guys proud of yourselves for being insulting on the internet? You all give Ksons and B&C a pretty poor image.

[Iron Sage]

Sorry you feel that way, Ghostcat. I dont want to discuss Grey Knights though.

 

Edit: For what its worth, I too feel the Sons are a bit underwhelming. But I don`t think its fair, nor do I think its at all interesting or constructive, to compare them with a notorious codex like Grey Knights.

[elithren]

First off, Ghostcat, have you actually played a game with the new book? Have you ran Ahriman and 2+troops of 1ksons? Have you tried them with the various psyker abilities they can get? I'm willing to say no because the book hasn't even been released to public sales yet!

 

Honestly, all this theoryhammer garbage is just lame. And I'll put this out there, specialist armies SUCK! Sure it's fluffy, but you can still have a fluffy list using other options from the codex. Need CC? Run maulerfiends and call them Cataphracts. Oblits as sorcerers, the list is endless! Besides, how do you expect mindless automatons to be as tactically useful and capable of using special weapons, which in their own right require time to master using. Sorry, but robots can only do so much on their own. BUT, mindless robots backing a line of terminators as fire support are AWESOME. If you learn anything from Phil Kelly, he doesn't make own super uber unit in the codex. All his books are about synergy, various units backing each other up. Example--Grey hunters with long fangs.

[Ghostcat]

First off, Ghostcat, have you actually played a game with the new book? Have you ran Ahriman and 2+troops of 1ksons? Have you tried them with the various psyker abilities they can get? I'm willing to say no because the book hasn't even been released to public sales yet!

 

Honestly, all this theoryhammer garbage is just lame. And I'll put this out there, specialist armies SUCK! Sure it's fluffy, but you can still have a fluffy list using other options from the codex. Need CC? Run maulerfiends and call them Cataphracts. Oblits as sorcerers, the list is endless! Besides, how do you expect mindless automatons to be as tactically useful and capable of using special weapons, which in their own right require time to master using. Sorry, but robots can only do so much on their own. BUT, mindless robots backing a line of terminators as fire support are AWESOME. If you learn anything from Phil Kelly, he doesn't make own super uber unit in the codex. All his books are about synergy, various units backing each other up. Example--Grey hunters with long fangs.

 

I haven't yet played with it, but I have read the entire codex and I spent hours making up lists last night. With my long history with 40k, I do believe I am capable of making some basic obsevations and judgments based on what I have seen. I am open minded and I will play with them, so my final judgment may be different than the opinion I hold now.

 

I don't know that point you are trying to make in the second paragraph, but I don't have an issue with the entirety of the Chaos codex. All in all it looks like a well balanced book, not over the top but it should be competitive. I do have an issue with GW repeatedly making a unit a relatively poor choice in a codex. A codex does not have to have dead weight to be a good book.

[Marshal Goderic]

First off, Ghostcat, have you actually played a game with the new book? Have you ran Ahriman and 2+troops of 1ksons? Have you tried them with the various psyker abilities they can get? I'm willing to say no because the book hasn't even been released to public sales yet!

 

Honestly, all this theoryhammer garbage is just lame. And I'll put this out there, specialist armies SUCK! Sure it's fluffy, but you can still have a fluffy list using other options from the codex. Need CC? Run maulerfiends and call them Cataphracts. Oblits as sorcerers, the list is endless! Besides, how do you expect mindless automatons to be as tactically useful and capable of using special weapons, which in their own right require time to master using. Sorry, but robots can only do so much on their own. BUT, mindless robots backing a line of terminators as fire support are AWESOME. If you learn anything from Phil Kelly, he doesn't make own super uber unit in the codex. All his books are about synergy, various units backing each other up. Example--Grey hunters with long fangs.

 

Some of us have the 'book' fyi. To put a finer point on it, Specialist/cult armies don't suck (depends on the specialists, PM in 5th) PMs and NM's and perhaps zerkers are able to be fielded as the 'bulk' & 'prime' part of an army whilst keeping the army competitive. They don't really need a special situation to make them work (zerkers and the new rhino issues aside). Was it REALLY too much to ask that we, the TS players get to... wait for it... KEEP THE UNIT WE HAD in the last :angry: 'dex. With Asp sorcerers kept at ML 2 it would fix the 'only works in certain situations' issue that TS now have. We went from 'yes! we can totally be your anchor unit! and you can be competitive vs non MEQ armies!!!' to... not. So yeah after what, 5 years of waiting for this, teasing us with the drop of 6th that we will be viable (via the super psychic edition we now play) and then the best we get is the flamey banner? Yes Ahriman is good, but no I don't want and never wanted to use him to base my army around.

 

How is everyone missing the point of other cult units are viable as your mainstay troop choice but we are not?

 

one last thing, have you heard of thunderwolves?

[Emperors Immortals]

Eh, I was about to answer you seriously, but your fanatical defence of the most attrocious codex writer in the history of man, is more than a bit offputting to put it mildly. His codices are completly horrible and extremly overpowered in every way, so we can`t agree I fear.

 

Edit: Honestly tempting to think you are trolling.

 

Im surprised by this honestly, I feel ward wrote a Damn fine BA dex, same as his others. He should be flogged with a mackerel if he ever attempts to write background stories.

[Iron Sage]

Eh, I was about to answer you seriously, but your fanatical defence of the most attrocious codex writer in the history of man, is more than a bit offputting to put it mildly. His codices are completly horrible and extremly overpowered in every way, so we can`t agree I fear.

 

Edit: Honestly tempting to think you are trolling.

 

Im surprised by this honestly, I feel ward wrote a Damn fine BA dex, same as his others. He should be flogged with a mackerel if he ever attempts to write background stories.

 

Yeah, your right. Blood Angels is actually okay. The fluff is horrible of course, but otherwise its okay, I agree.

 

Used a bit too strong words there. Grey Knights and Necrons, I don`t want to speak about though :P

 

Edit: It does have some silly units though, that blood angels codex. As in really silly (thinking about Mephiston with T6 and librarian dreadnought etc.).It not as overpowered and completly unbalances as Grey Knights and Necrons though.

 

But lets try to keep this about Tzeentch and his chosen from now on :(