New Thousand Sons

[Emperors Immortals]

Yeah thats fair enough lol. I faced GK twice with old zerker list, won one tied one but never faced cron. I think we have a good dex and im mad keen to see how 1K sons go. Fav ward moment has to be the SoB blood sacrifice, i still cant laugh at that.

[Ethrion]

But enough said about that though, it appears rational discourse about it is not relevant or acceptable here.

 

ediT: One thing, are you guys proud of yourselves for being insulting on the internet? You all give Ksons and B&C a pretty poor image.

 

Hold on, who said rationality isn't relevant or acceptable here? All I've seen so far is reasonable discussion of how Thousand Sons are.

 

Secondly, who's been insulting so far on this thread? Again, all I've seen is us Thousand Sons players asking for people to stop comparing everything Thousands Sons can do with how GK can do x or Y a million times better. For my part I whole heartedly apologize if my over-the-top sarcasm was too much to bear for some gentle souls but I've not seen any posts that have been outright insulting. So I respectfully disagree that we give Thousand Sons and the B&C community on the whole a poor image.

 

Anyway with that said: I've just played a game against the 'new codex' and if anything stood out for me that was HUGE was two things - firstly how much more a chaos list can now field. Cultists, daemon allies...all dirt cheap and perfect as gun clogging units, distraction squads and rear table objective holders. If nothing else it allowed the "elite" chaos units to move around doing what they were intended for. This means that rubric marines no longer have to be the front line squads taking all the damage and dying in very costly ways but can now be shielded by dross and stay alive gunning marines down with their AP3.

 

Second thing I noticed was how awesomely good 'veterans of the long war' was. Charge or be charged - it meant overwhelming numbers of hits being inflicted. Add that to a chaos lord wielding a daemon weapon and he's hitting with a ton of AP2 attacks.

 

Im sure there's lots more stuff that's great but those were the two things that stand out for me from today.

[Crimson Hawk]

Gods, there's more rage on this thread than a DMV que full of Khorne Berzerkers, who have just found out Man U lost the final. Calm down! We haven't even seen the codex, and the entire subforum is running around like a bunch of headless chickens.

And believe me, you would not like it if Ward wrote the Codex. Dont even go there. I would much rather play with a bland, underpowered Codex than the nonsensical peice of :( I and the other Daemonhunters (Hear that, Ward? They. Are. Daemonhunters! had to put up with for the past year or so. If you want OP, then play counts-as Necrons/ Blood Angels, or GK. It's not like there aren't other options. Chances are, if you stuck through the Age of Gav, you'll stick through here.

Sorry if I didnt make a coherent point, it's not something I profess to be good at :)

[Iron Sage]

Second thing I noticed was how awesomely good 'veterans of the long war' was. Charge or be charged - it meant overwhelming numbers of hits being inflicted. Add that to a chaos lord wielding a daemon weapon and he's hitting with a ton of AP2 attacks.

 

 

 

heya, Ethrion :(

 

I am afraid I have to note that only the Khornate axe is AP 2. Still a lot of attacks with the mace though, and against Hordes it is sure to rock in wicked ways :)

 

Then again, I have yet to playtest the codex myself. But I really like what I see. Going to play with my Iron Warriors in my first battle, and then I plan to play with the Sons in the next one.

[Ethrion]

Second thing I noticed was how awesomely good 'veterans of the long war' was. Charge or be charged - it meant overwhelming numbers of hits being inflicted. Add that to a chaos lord wielding a daemon weapon and he's hitting with a ton of AP2 attacks.

 

heya, Ethrion :(

 

I am afraid I have to note that only the Khornate axe is AP 2. Still a lot of attacks with the mace though, and against Hordes it is sure to rock in wicked ways :)

 

Then again, I have yet to playtest the codex myself. But I really like what I see. Going to play with my Iron Warriors in my first battle, and then I plan to play with the Sons in the next one.

 

That was what it was...Axe of Blind rage.

[Iron Sage]

Aha! Sorry then, my mistake

[Ethrion]

Aha! Sorry then, my mistake

Yeah it's nasty! Lays waste to lots of stuff.

 

But anyway, the biggest thing to take away from it regarding Thousand Sons was the ability to free them up for their specialist duty by taking cultists and/or daemons as the meat shield units. Plus this veteran of the long war just allows the rubrics a tad bit more hitting power in close combat if they get embroiled in melee. Definitely saves you from whiffing your attacks if and when that happens!

[Brother Ambroz]

We haven't even seen the codex

 

Actually the vast majority of us have.....

 

MoT sorcerors are going to be amazing I think. Give them sigil, take a Tzeentchian power and go Biomancy for the rest and you'll have one hell of a psyker.

[Jacinda]

We haven't even seen the codex,

We?

I have the book in my purse right now because I was just reading it during lunch break. <_<

[Crimson Hawk]

We haven't even seen the codex,

We?

I have the book in my purse right now because I was just reading it during lunch break. <_<

My bad, the book doesn't go on sale till tomorrow in my area, so I assumed it was the same for the rest of the world, and it was on this assumption that most of my post was based. Thanks for catching me on that one, a lot of things make a lot more sense now.

[Jacinda]

It does not actually go on sale until tomorrow, but some people have had their's shipped early and someone got a copy to flip through until it goes on sale ;)

[Ghostcat]

But enough said about that though, it appears rational discourse about it is not relevant or acceptable here.

 

ediT: One thing, are you guys proud of yourselves for being insulting on the internet? You all give Ksons and B&C a pretty poor image.

 

Hold on, who said rationality isn't relevant or acceptable here? All I've seen so far is reasonable discussion of how Thousand Sons are.

 

Secondly, who's been insulting so far on this thread? Again, all I've seen is us Thousand Sons players asking for people to stop comparing everything Thousands Sons can do with how GK can do x or Y a million times better. For my part I whole heartedly apologize if my over-the-top sarcasm was too much to bear for some gentle souls but I've not seen any posts that have been outright insulting. So I respectfully disagree that we give Thousand Sons and the B&C community on the whole a poor image.

 

Anyway with that said: I've just played a game against the 'new codex' and if anything stood out for me that was HUGE was two things - firstly how much more a chaos list can now field. Cultists, daemon allies...all dirt cheap and perfect as gun clogging units, distraction squads and rear table objective holders. If nothing else it allowed the "elite" chaos units to move around doing what they were intended for. This means that rubric marines no longer have to be the front line squads taking all the damage and dying in very costly ways but can now be shielded by dross and stay alive gunning marines down with their AP3.

 

Second thing I noticed was how awesomely good 'veterans of the long war' was. Charge or be charged - it meant overwhelming numbers of hits being inflicted. Add that to a chaos lord wielding a daemon weapon and he's hitting with a ton of AP2 attacks.

 

Im sure there's lots more stuff that's great but those were the two things that stand out for me from today.

 

Rational discoure about IT, meaning the-codex-that-shall-not-be-named. It is obvoiusly not welcome here.

 

I apologize for that last statement in the post I made. The flame posts were just obnoxious, they did fall short of insulting. I am not interested in starting a flame war, so let it go.

 

I understand that rage over the codex-that-shall-not-be-named exists, but since you brought it up again i will reiterate my point: that codex doesn't have dead weight, the chaos codex does. Unfortunaley in my opinion it's the Ksosns.

[Iron Sage]

But enough said about that though, it appears rational discourse about it is not relevant or acceptable here.

 

ediT: One thing, are you guys proud of yourselves for being insulting on the internet? You all give Ksons and B&C a pretty poor image.

 

Hold on, who said rationality isn't relevant or acceptable here? All I've seen so far is reasonable discussion of how Thousand Sons are.

 

Secondly, who's been insulting so far on this thread? Again, all I've seen is us Thousand Sons players asking for people to stop comparing everything Thousands Sons can do with how GK can do x or Y a million times better. For my part I whole heartedly apologize if my over-the-top sarcasm was too much to bear for some gentle souls but I've not seen any posts that have been outright insulting. So I respectfully disagree that we give Thousand Sons and the B&C community on the whole a poor image.

 

Anyway with that said: I've just played a game against the 'new codex' and if anything stood out for me that was HUGE was two things - firstly how much more a chaos list can now field. Cultists, daemon allies...all dirt cheap and perfect as gun clogging units, distraction squads and rear table objective holders. If nothing else it allowed the "elite" chaos units to move around doing what they were intended for. This means that rubric marines no longer have to be the front line squads taking all the damage and dying in very costly ways but can now be shielded by dross and stay alive gunning marines down with their AP3.

 

Second thing I noticed was how awesomely good 'veterans of the long war' was. Charge or be charged - it meant overwhelming numbers of hits being inflicted. Add that to a chaos lord wielding a daemon weapon and he's hitting with a ton of AP2 attacks.

 

Im sure there's lots more stuff that's great but those were the two things that stand out for me from today.

 

Rational discoure about IT, meaning the-codex-that-shall-not-be-named. It is obvoiusly not welcome here.

 

I apologize for that last statement in the post I made. The flame posts were just obnoxious, they did fall short of insulting. I am not interested in starting a flame war, so let it go.

 

I understand that rage over the codex-that-shall-not-be-named exists, but since you brought it up again i will reiterate my point: that codex doesn't have dead weight, the chaos codex does. Unfortunaley in my opinion it's the Ksosns.

 

Flame posts? Where?

 

Seriously, the only one who was obnoxious was that Grey Knights player with the witchhunter avatar who ticked some of us off with his ultra arrogant trolling (it was clearly trolling).

 

Your obviously correct in that the Grey Knights codex doesn`t have much deadweight, but 99% of the 40K community thinks it ridiculously unbalanced in a very bad way. If thats the kind of codex you personally want to play, then thats alright. But you can hardly expect all of us to be overjoyed with such unfair comparisons with a codex that is mostly despised for its lack of balance and laughably overpowered units, and its hadly rational to expect other codices to compare to such a failed codex.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Gods, there's more rage on this thread than a DMV que full of Khorne Berzerkers, who have just found out Man U lost the final. Calm down! We haven't even seen the codex, and the entire subforum is running around like a bunch of headless chickens.

And believe me, you would not like it if Ward wrote the Codex. Dont even go there. I would much rather play with a bland, underpowered Codex than the nonsensical peice of :yes: I and the other Daemonhunters (Hear that, Ward? They. Are. Daemonhunters! had to put up with for the past year or so. If you want OP, then play counts-as Necrons/ Blood Angels, or GK. It's not like there aren't other options. Chances are, if you stuck through the Age of Gav, you'll stick through here.

Sorry if I didnt make a coherent point, it's not something I profess to be good at ;)

This, I already Stopped playing one army due to ward, would not have wanted to have lost another to him.

I'm converting a sorcerer in terminator armour with force sword and chainfist from the dark vengeance terminator sergeant, and I'm thinking of after taking obligatory spell of tzeentch (a full lore would have been nice) going for Pyromany, as it seems to have become more usefull, as buffs such as flame shield can be cast on the cultit blob in front of the thousand son unit your sorcerer is in.

I'd also be taking one in power armour with telepathy, or/ and in bigger games Ahriman (love his fluff, love his model, and the idea of infiltrating terminators just makes me smile.)

Going to miss telekinisis though.

[Ghostcat]

Your obviously correct in that the Grey Knights codex doesn`t have much deadweight, but 99% of the 40K community thinks it ridiculously unbalanced in a very bad way. If thats the kind of codex you personally want to play, then thats alright. But you can hardly expect all of us to be overjoyed with such unfair comparisons with a codex that is mostly despised for its lack of balance and laughably overpowered units, and its hadly rational to expect other codices to compare to such a failed codex.

 

For someone who doesn't want to talk about that codex, you sure talk alot about that codex. Each time you do in this thread, I will likely respond with solid points to counter your (what I percieve as) irrational rage about it.

 

Look, you are even making up statisitics FTW. 99% may help you justify your opinons, but it isn't anywhere close to the truth. Even you can admit that much. Leave that crap to the political cantidates.

 

Honestly, just because a few loud minorities make a ton of noise on the internet about that codex: that doesn't make it bad or unbalanced. Last I checked it is an offical codex for the 40k game, which makes the internet whining kind of pathetic. Take an objective look at it, it really is not the most overpowered codex out there right now. Hell look at the Nova results, GK aren't there except as allies. There is a reason for that, they don't live up to the overpowerd hype that gets regurgitated around on the internets. Some of that was true in 5th, and it is much much less the case in 6th.

 

I believe you are wrong and it's a good book. Other codexs should aspire to be as fun as that book is to play with. It's my opinion and I don't pretend to speak for the internet. I will let it drop in this thread right here if you all do, you don't have to agree with me. I just can't see all this unreasonable hate and not call you all out on it though.

 

All that said I still feel the 1ksons are to expensive for their niche role, and I am irrationally upset that I cannot make a legion-like army of them with the CSM dex. If I am being honest with myself, they aren't complete dead weight. Certainly not as bad as the Mutilators are, but I cannot see taking more than one squad of them. what you give up in terms of CSM or Daemon allies for more Ksons simply isn't worth it.

 

I do like MoT CSM though, so that is where I am heading I think. I am defiantley going to make a Tzeentch themed army with Ksons models being MoT, infiltrating CSM. Huron Blackheart will be in the list before Ahirman though, I think huron makes a decent counts-as for a Tzeentch lord. 4++, random psyker ability, MoD... very nice indeed. Why would I want Level four psychic Dakka with shooting target restrictions that gets beat like a meth-wife in melee for the price of a land raider? If you think you can keep him out of melee, you are mistaken.

 

Chaos is a decent book, I am just butthurt that Kelly made Ksons so undesirable when I was planning a Ksons army. ..l.. Kelly. I know I'm over reacting, In fact I guess I can understand the unreasonable rage you feel about that book even if I don't agree wholly with your opinions.

[Iron Sage]

Ok, we don`t agree. That is also fine with me. I shall remind you that you were the one bringing up the Grey Knigths though, not me. I merely respond to it, because I find the constant comparisons to unbalanced Ward codices a tad annoying. As for the minority being of the opinion that Grey Knights is unbalanced and therefore a failed codex, I don`t think thats true at all. Not at all.

 

I also told you that I agree that the Sons are a tad too expensive previously (if you scroll up).

 

You can`t understand the "unreasonable hate" (I despise that codex, I look down at it, and see it as overpowered, having laughable fluff and just very unbalanced), and I can`t understand the unreasonable comparisons and constant whining (I am a bit sick of the whining).

 

All is good. From now on, lets discuss Tzeentch please (again, you were the one bringing this up, you and that ridiculous Grey Knight troll who came in before you).

[Crimson Hawk]

All is good. From now on, lets discuss Tzeentch please (again, you were the one bringing this up, you and that ridiculous Grey Knight troll who came in before you).

Sadly, the guy isn't a troll. He just genuinely gets a kick out of reminding niche factions exactly how powerful he is. He, and those like him are the reason I made a whine thread about GKs, and GK players. And, to add insult to injury, he's Scottish. There are few enough of us here, without him tarnishing our reputation :D

But speak no more of! I think that the problem with this codex is that people's expectations were raised waaaay too high, and when you put something on a pedestal, the only thing it can do is fall off. I choose to view this codex as less of an epic fail, and more of a minor update, that added a variety of interesting new units and options (like Cultists).

[Ghostcat]

I think that the problem with this codex is that people's expectations were raised waaaay too high, and when you put something on a pedestal, the only thing it can do is fall off. I choose to view this codex as less of an epic fail, and more of a minor update, that added a variety of interesting new units and options (like Cultists).

 

I fall into this category where Ksons are concerned. The rest of the book is pretty good.

 

The CSM, Chosen, bikers, terminators and raptors entries are brilliant, the options allow for efficient or extremely fluffy squad choices. The vindi, predator, and havocs are all excellent too but I am not sold on the daemonforge entries; even the helldrake. Oblits are still good too, and marks can make them excellent.

 

Plague Marines are efficient as all hell again, Brezerkers are going to eat stuff if they don't get shot to peices, and I'm think there is potential for Noise marines but probably in a list built around them. Mutilators are pitiful.

 

Tzeentch HQ's are going to be the best for the predictable challenge trap we will fall into, but i think a lot of player will be thinking long and hard about MoT on psykers. Huron is ace, and Lords are freaking great too. Daemon princes will be rare I think, because they are expensive and not as flexible as other Hq choices; but that doesn't mean they are bad. Apostles and Warpsmiths are interesting enough to be in many themed lists, and some combos make them solid enough competitvely.

 

Hmm... 5 point 5++ cultists. Double FoC at 2K could mean four Sorcs to lead four squads... my in-head mathhammer rates that pretty highly as objective holders and tarpits. I really like MoT on marines and cultists. When one isn't paying over 20 points for a invul model it's performance begins to outweigh it's costs; under ten is almost frightening.

 

The best thing Tzeentch has going for it in this codex is access to Tzeentch Daemon allies, but that's because they are nearly the best units in the game right now.

 

To Iron Sage: I'm sick of the GK whining, my point is made and that is the last I will say about it. Sorry if I was a bit of a prick.

[Iron Sage]

No problem, Cat :D

[Iron Sage]

All is good. From now on, lets discuss Tzeentch please (again, you were the one bringing this up, you and that ridiculous Grey Knight troll who came in before you).

Sadly, the guy isn't a troll. He just genuinely gets a kick out of reminding niche factions exactly how powerful they are

 

You might be right. I dont really know him. It was annoying how he came in and hammered us with his comparisons though, when he even didn`t know what he was talking about in the first place (example: he was wrong on oblits). Some would argue that this is the proper definition of trolling though (getting a kick out of ridiculing the other peoples army lists, while having laughable opinions concerning his own). He also clearly lied when he claimed he had playtested the codex. Even the ever cynical Jeske thinks we are alright, and he is actually a proper and real playtester with brains.

 

But it doesn`t matter at all. Not at all.

 

I just want to get the best out of the Thousand Sons I own. I am fully aware that they are so called "sub par" compared to many other units (though thet clearly are better in 6ed, despite lack of overwatch, due to general decreasein cover, which I also happen to think is the reason for their steep cost). I still think they are very playable though. But I think you have to use them as the specialists they are, and not play "pure" Sons list without other marines or cultists. Cultists really do help them though. And isn`t it nice how we can mark everything now? I mean, no more worrying about getting your mark "sniped off" (hated that with the Thorpe dex).

[vonny]

Hmm... 5 point 5++ cultists. Double FoC at 2K could mean four Sorcs to lead four squads... my in-head mathhammer rates that pretty highly as objective holders and tarpits. I really like MoT on marines and cultists. When one isn't paying over 20 points for a invul model it's performance begins to outweigh it's costs; under ten is almost frightening.

 

Sadly, only 6++. That makes me sad actually, because else those cultists would indeed really be worth it.

 

Now I'm thinking of leaving the cultists as they are, and adding guard with a primaris psyker/psyker battle squad/infantry platoon with heavy weapons as a sorcerous cult instead. Which strikes me as a shame, allying guard in as cultists while there's actual cultists in the book. :(

 

I do like the fact that ahriman's a bit cheaper, as are HQ sorcerors. And I save 12 points on an aspiring sorceror, and my predator configurations are cheaper, and the obliterators too - all in all it adds up. Small additions, but still, I suddenly had points to spare! (which, of course, quickly ended up in not enough points at all!)

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

So it is only 40ots for both sponsons and not 80? :( the wording is a bit unsure :P warp flame gargoyles could be usefull for when my predators and vindicator fire on non tank units. Put a havoc launcher or combo weapon on the vindicator and watch guard burn ;).

[Crimson Hawk]

:yes:

[Ghostcat]

Sadly, only 6++. That makes me sad actually, because else those cultists would indeed really be worth it.

 

Now I'm thinking of leaving the cultists as they are, and adding guard with a primaris psyker/psyker battle squad/infantry platoon with heavy weapons as a sorcerous cult instead. Which strikes me as a shame, allying guard in as cultists while there's actual cultists in the book. ;)

 

I feel foolish, you are right of course. MoT alone is only a 6++. I take back what I said about liking MoT on cultists and CSM. It is only suitable for units with an existing inv save.

 

How freaking sad is that?

 

Units that can actually benefit from MoT:

Apostles: amazing

Obliterators: Very Good

Terminators: Very Good

Lords: really good too because of wargear options

Sorcerer: really good too because of wargear options, but limits psyker (less so at higher Mastery)

Warpsmith: Ok because of wargear options, but gets expensive

 

That's it in my estimation. Did I miss anything? A 6++ isn't really worth the 1 or 2 points is my reasoning. This even further limits Ksons if you want to keep it all in the family on paper.

 

Hmm.. Could an MSU Ksons form up the bulk of an army?

 

Base MSU gets you a fearless, t4 4++ 1w, VoLW, 8 S4 AP3

A sorc who can buff (or kill) a character, anti-infantry, or anti-vehicle but has to roll an extra set of dice and saves for it, oh and can kill himself for trying. Also can carry force axe, but suffers immensely getting into assault.

 

Battlefield roles: good tar pit (heavy infantry, specialist infantry, MC's and IC's, no melee skills though) average tarpit (everything else), excellent ranged anti-infantry (vs MEQ and less), mediocre anti-vehicle (too random), average objective holding (Fearless is awesome, but no overwatch and poor melee skills). The 4++ is very situational, some armies will honestly struggle against it, but most won't and the Ksons die just like marines half their cost.

 

So the focused role I see for the Ksons is going to be grabbing the primary Tzeentch ability, sitting on an objective blasting away and acting as speed bumps to units that aren't used to being slowed down.

 

It's something I guess, I will give it a try, but I don't know... maybe with 5-6 units? That's nearly half of a 2k army. Mix in 500-600 points in Tzeentch daemons; there may be something there.. but I still feel that every other faction of chaos and just plain old CSM are points better spent as far as themed or legion armies go in this book. Square peg, round hole. It's my opinion of course, and I would love to see I am wrong. I just don't see the formula yet.

 

Frankly Ksons just aren't that good in the codex even just as a specialist squad because, point for point, you get more flexibility/bodies with the other entries in the book.

 

I think I just talked myself into Tzeentch themed CSM, but only a couple of squads/hq's marked by Tzeentch in the army.

[Ethrion]

I think the best way to run Thousand Sons now is to have a squad or two of them in amongst your army and then screen them with cultists, daemon allies, guard allies, standard chaos space marines in big units and keep the rubricae as the special forces. You see a key enemy power armour wearing unit coming: you block them with cultists and move up the rubric marines ready to strike with AP3 bolters.

 

Certainly Tzeentch daemon prince with wings, mastery level 3 and scrolls of Magnus is a beast. I've seen it today and he cut a bloody swathe through the Black Legion.