Ghostcat Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 Certainly Tzeentch daemon prince with wings, mastery level 3 and scrolls of Magnus is a beast. I've seen it today and he cut a bloody swathe through the Black Legion. Princes are beastly, so is their cost. That one must have been outrageous, but in that unit you do get what you pay for. A DP with that many psychic powers is nuts, that is a sick unit. I am thinking a sorcerer with MoT, AoDG, the scrolls, and probably a disc to move around with Raptors. It's random, but it could be very interesting. EDIT: wait a daemon prince cannot take the scrolls, he doesn't have a mark. He is a Daemon of Tzeentch, not marked by... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethrion Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 Certainly Tzeentch daemon prince with wings, mastery level 3 and scrolls of Magnus is a beast. I've seen it today and he cut a bloody swathe through the Black Legion. Princes are beastly, so is their cost. That one must have been outrageous, but in that unit you do get what you pay for. A DP with that many psychic powers is nuts, that is a sick unit. I am thinking a sorcerer with MoT, sigil, the scrolls, and probably a disc to move around with Raptors. It's random, but it could be very interesting. EDIT: wait a daemon prince cannot take the scrolls, he doesn't have a mark. He is a Daemon of Tzeentch, not marked by... Hmm, well I was just watching the game but I would have thought a daemon prince of Tzeentch that is benefiting from the mark i.e. a 4+ invulnerable save and that is subject to taking at least one psychic power from the same lore must be allowed to take chaos artifacts available to Tzeentch marked units? That probably needs FAQing to clear it up. But yeah, this prince was really costly at like 300+ points. Although he did go and butcher tons of stuff - a whole squad of chaos marines, 4-5 terminators etc... I think he earnt his pricetag quite nicely haha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostcat Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 EDIT: wait a daemon prince cannot take the scrolls, he doesn't have a mark. He is a Daemon of Tzeentch, not marked by... Hmm, well I was just watching the game but I would have thought a daemon prince of Tzeentch that is benefiting from the mark i.e. a 4+ invulnerable save and that is subject to taking at least one psychic power from the same lore must be allowed to take chaos artifacts available to Tzeentch marked units? That probably needs FAQing to clear it up. It is RAW right now. A mark is a specific option and Princes are not able to take it. I know I am setting myself up for dissapointment, but I hold out hope that GW will show the same recent liberal errata and FAQing around with the CSM dex that they have with the BYB. I Hope something changes for Tzeentch, he's the fraking lord of change for godsakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethrion Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 EDIT: wait a daemon prince cannot take the scrolls, he doesn't have a mark. He is a Daemon of Tzeentch, not marked by... Hmm, well I was just watching the game but I would have thought a daemon prince of Tzeentch that is benefiting from the mark i.e. a 4+ invulnerable save and that is subject to taking at least one psychic power from the same lore must be allowed to take chaos artifacts available to Tzeentch marked units? That probably needs FAQing to clear it up. It's a RAW thing right now. I know I am setting myself up for dissapointment, but I hold out hope that GW will show the same recent liberal errata and FAQing around with the CSM dex that they have with the BYB. I Hope something changes for Tzeentch, he's the fraking lord of change for godsakes. Yeah it'll be a bit silly if he doesn't count as having the mark for wargear selecting purposes. Frankly, I just don't see it happening, it'll be ok we'll get the mark. Of course IF we don't and only the scrolls of Magnus can be taken on 2 wound sorcerers then it's just not worth the risk of frying yourself. Especially, when you're risking rolling on the pyromancy lore and will be killing yourself over acquiring a spell to light your cigarette! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Sage Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 I think the best way to run Thousand Sons now is to have a squad or two of them in amongst your army and then screen them with cultists, daemon allies, guard allies, standard chaos space marines in big units and keep the rubricae as the special forces. You see a key enemy power armour wearing unit coming: you block them with cultists and move up the rubric marines ready to strike with AP3 bolters. Certainly Tzeentch daemon prince with wings, mastery level 3 and scrolls of Magnus is a beast. I've seen it today and he cut a bloody swathe through the Black Legion. I think you are dead on there. For all we may wish they might have been a point or two less, they can still play their own role better than anyone else (I can`t think of many with AP 3 rapid Fire weapons and a 50% invul save). Tzeench Primaris, while maybe not hysterically awesome, can still be rather nice as long as the template hits. Against hordes, its actually very good (can certainly devestate a Guard sqaud better than most psycich powers and I dont think that can be disputed). I think the Sons become very much better if you have Ahriman or a Huron "counts as" (seriously, that guy works very well for a Tzeentchian lord, with his "clairvoyance" (infitrate), +4 invul, good in HtH and even sports a "sorcerous" flame attack). Having read the Codex, it is very much clear that GW wants us to use Specials as counts as to open uo certain builds. Maybe not awesome for all the fluff bunnnies (I am a bit of a bunny myself, though I am hardly fanatical), but looks like the future of the game, so one better just look at it as modeling oppurtunities etc. That being said, the generic Tzeentchian lords and sorcerers can indeed be built into awesomeness, and there are many cool builds. However, Huron counts as seems fantastically cost efficient though (I am converting my Warsmith model for use as Huron for my Iron Warriors, though for sons I plan to go for Ahriman), and if you can`t/don`t want to afford, Ahriman, it is something even a Tzeenthcian general should consider IMO (I find Master of Deception very fluffy for Tzeentch) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethrion Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Huron is a great HQ option...AND he is the only chaos guy that can potentially get a divination power for one turn. We all know how bent the divination lore is so that's another plus point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 Tzeentch Daemon Princes only get a 5++ invulnerable save, just like all the other Daemon Princes. Dedicating a DP to Tzeentch just lets him reroll failed saves (armour, cover and invun) of a 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Ridcully Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 Someone at GW really hates us......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 Someone at GW really hates us......... Oh I don't know about that. My DPs always tend to die to bolterfire, and the DoT reroll helps against pooped a LOT! I'll be marking my prince with MoT, that's for sure! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kastor Krieg Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 Yeah, but I'd damn like to be able to use the Scrolls of Magnus, since the Khornate Daemon got the access to his uber-axe! :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 Yeah, but I'd damn like to be able to use the Scrolls of Magnus, since the Khornate Daemon got the access to his uber-axe! :) Well, I sure as heck wont be making my prince a sorcerer, black mace and gift is enough for me @ 275 points... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Sage Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 Interesting point of view regarding the Sons and their use from the authour of Blood of Kittens. Obviously I like it extra much due to him saying exactly what I have been saying all the time, again and again, which is that Sons were massivly buffed in 6ed due to the 6ed rule changes (not sure why this is, but 90% of the bolter and chainsword forum seems to completly ignore these changes when they make critiques on the usefulness of the Sons, though they are obviously important in actual game play). I still think Mr. Bloody Kitten is too positive though. IMO, I think even though Sons are clearly better than before, they still are some what too expensive per model, and I would personally have liked to see a minor buff (could be an option which you had to pay for, no problem there) for the sorcerer. Even so, he brings up some very interesting points, so take a read if you want: http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2012/10/14/...nd-sons-review/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 I don't often go to BoK, so I missed that. Thanks for posting it Iron Sage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Sage Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 I don't often go to BoK, so I missed that. Thanks for posting it Iron Sage. NP! If it can help make Thousand Sons players think about how they can use their units successfully instead of just being perpetually sad, then I am happy ^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Ridcully Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 He does have some good points, and the 20 man squad/10 man squad in a rhino was something I was thinking about, but I do feel he is too positive and really does not see the huge srew over/fail/disaster that is the lore of Tzeentch, which effectivly makes all Tzeentch psychers the worst in the game and half the time a lvl less then everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 While I think he has some valid points I don't necessarily think that everyone here missed these issues, just as he said the old problem remains of justifying the points. I would guess that those who have been playing 1ksons for an edition or two have some idea of how to use them effectively and there have been a few builds you could make even with a 'pure' 1kson list that could be 'effective'. We haven't been losing every game for the last 3 additions :D. Our issues is that GW never seems to balance 1ksons right. Especially if someone is thinking of playing a pure list, although I admit you need to balance things so that they are not over powered when played in a happy family chaos list. To only major change for me in this addition (and I'm not saying that other things can't be useful) are sorcerer psychic powers. The fact they are random and that I feel Bolt of change and wind of chaos have been nerfed. I realise that against many vehicles the bolt of change is better when in range (shorter range) due to the way AP works in this addition. However I feel due to the way glances and penetration works in this addition and the random nature of bolt means it should have been S9. I don't rely on my sorcerers as my primary tank busters but sometimes I've had no choice but to use them to blow up Leman Russes or Land Raiders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Sage Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 While I think he has some valid points I don't necessarily think that everyone here missed these issues, just as he said the old problem remains of justifying the points. I would guess that those who have been playing 1ksons for an edition or two have some idea of how to use them effectively and there have been a few builds you could make even with a 'pure' 1kson list that could be 'effective'. We haven't been losing every game for the last 3 additions :P. Our issues is that GW never seems to balance 1ksons right. Especially if someone is thinking of playing a pure list, although I admit you need to balance things so that they are not over powered when played in a happy family chaos list. To only major change for me in this addition (and I'm not saying that other things can't be useful) are sorcerer psychic powers. The fact they are random and that I feel Bolt of change and wind of chaos have been nerfed. I realise that against many vehicles the bolt of change is better when in range (shorter range) due to the way AP works in this addition. However I feel due to the way glances and penetration works in this addition and the random nature of bolt means it should have been S9. I don't rely on my sorcerers as my primary tank busters but sometimes I've had no choice but to use them to blow up Leman Russes or Land Raiders. You have fair points, but once again (people here seem to always do, like I said in my post above) you failed to mention how they were buffed in 6ed (free powers is not as important, though nice, as the actual big buff). Loss of overwatch is sad, but no big deal (the actual problem is rather sweeping advance). General decrease in cover save for ALL armies is however HUGE, MASSIVE, and cannot be understated in any possible way. It makes Sons far more durable than any other unit I can think of, against artillery shelling (i.e. far more difficult to dislodge), it makes their actual enemies have less protetion, thus clearly buffing their AP 3 bolters. Besides, I agree, Lore of Tzeenth isn`t very good. Particularly I find it slightly annoying that wind of chaoscosts 2 warp charges. But it`s not useless at all. The Primaris is extremly good against Hordes (which happens to be one of the armies Sons struggle with), and the beam is okay, and not bad at all. As for "Pure Sons" lists, why take that when Cultists seem to be created and added into the book for the use with Sons anyway? Their fluffy and helps your army. Other than this, sure I agree. I complain about the same matters myself (cost, boring Tzeentch powers). But I do not, and will never ever, agree with anyone who insinuates that Sons are some how not better now than before, since that is just blatantly false in a very obvious way (if you read the rule book) :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 Other than this, sure I agree. I complain about the same matters myself (cost, boring Tzeentch powers). But I do not, and will never ever, agree with anyone who insinuates that Sons are some how not better now than before, since that is just blatantly false in a very obvious way (if you read the rule book) :D Well for me some of those boons you mentioned happened before the new codex came out, so I've only really been talking about the changes from the new codex rather than from 6th and new codex. I don't personally feel they are much better if better at all, that said they may not be worse. It seems to me that they are improved in some areas and have been hurt in others. How big an affect this will have on army and if the effect caused will be positive or negative I can't really say until I get a few more games under by belt and as you say the value of 1ksons depends a lot on what you take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Ridcully Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 And the supposed "free" spells? Went from being Mastery level 2 with access to the rule book lores, to mastery level one and forced to take the piss poor lore of cra, er Tzeentch. Sorry, I have just had a load of people telling me how I should be thankfull that the Thousand sons are stuck with that lore as it's "fluffy" and "access to the others would be over powered" and that I should be happy with it. Now the Asp. Sorcerer is nothing more then a 60pts sergeant with power weapon and bolt pistol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I don't know why people are raggin' on the Tzeentch lore, it's awesome! All of the powers are strong and nasty. Need to pop a tank? Kill terminators? Obliterate hordes? It's all in there. Can even give yourself a pat on the back with the last power... I used Tzeentch's Firestorm last night, and holy crap! It took out swathes of Cultists (actually made him flee off an objective and off the table, and it killed a character so got to roll on the table :D) all in one turn, then in the next it offed a couple marines. Very underrated, I'm happy it's the default power. When you roll well (or even just average) it's vicious to the right targets! It gave my daemon prince something to do as he flapped around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Sage Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I don't know why people are raggin' on the Tzeentch lore, it's awesome! All of the powers are strong and nasty. Need to pop a tank? Kill terminators? Obliterate hordes? It's all in there. Can even give yourself a pat on the back with the last power... I used Tzeentch's Firestorm last night, and holy crap! It took out swathes of Cultists (actually made him flee off an objective and off the table, and it killed a character so got to roll on the table :D) all in one turn, then in the next it offed a couple marines. Very underrated, I'm happy it's the default power. When you roll well (or even just average) it's vicious to the right targets! It gave my daemon prince something to do as he flapped around. It lacks trusthworty blessings and maledictions, but I very much agree that it is among the most destructive ones. I have been trying to convince people of the worth of the Primaris myself, as IMO its actually quite. quite aweesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Ridcully Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 The primaris may be good against the likes of cultists and eldar, but anything else it is too unreliable, and in the half a dozen games I have had with the codex it has yet to kill anything. The lore is only just, just usable, but still hamstrings us and is sub standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Sage Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 The primaris may be good against the likes of cultists and eldar, but anything else it is too unreliable, and in the half a dozen games I have had with the codex it has yet to kill anything.The lore is only just, just usable, but still hamstrings us and is sub standard. Fair enough, I can`t argue with you if you have had that kind of luck, though I insist thats not especially statistical :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 It's just not good against MEq. Doombolt's about the only worthwhile power against most opponents. It doesn't help that for Aspiring sorcerers, we literally have 3 powers, when most disciplines have a whole 7. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Sage Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 It's just not good against MEq. Doombolt's about the only worthwhile power against most opponents. It doesn't help that for Aspiring sorcerers, we literally have 3 powers, when most disciplines have a whole 7. Sad but very, very valid points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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