Phoebus Posted September 23, 2012 Share Posted September 23, 2012 The Codex states that the Assault squads in question are "often equipped with jump packs". A Codex Eighth Company is "often equipped with jump packs, bikes, and land speeders." My question is, rules-wise we know you can only get bikes and land speeders via the Ravenwing. Fluff-wise, though, does the Eighth have bikes or land speeders, or are all such assets given to the Ravenwing, which is in turn divided up to support battle forces as needed? I get the thematic importance of the Ravenwing, but I find it interesting that every other Company would surrender such a big part of their mobility. Absent the Ravenwing (and the Chapter organization chart on page 15 does not show the Ravenwing supporting the other 8 Companies the way the Scouts do), assault capability is limited to Rhinos, drop pods, and the Command Razorback. I'm not sure this can be chalked up to a shortage or the fact that ALL of the Second Company of the Dark Angels is bike or Speeder-capable. After all, a Codex Chapter would have bikes and Land Speeders enough for the Sixth, Seventh, Eighth Companies, AND the Assault squads of the 2nd-5th Companies. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flake Posted September 23, 2012 Share Posted September 23, 2012 Fluff-wise, I think all companies have to borrow elements from the 1st and 2nd if they want Deathwing or Ravenwing support. Since the DA are so obsessed with their leadership structure to make sure only the right people know the whole story about what's going on with their Chapter, it makes sense to me that they'd be so rigid in controlling who gets what toys. If I recall correctly, it's even mentioned in the codex that all company masters have done a tour in the Deathwing after being allowed into one of the lower levels of the inner circle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted September 23, 2012 Author Share Posted September 23, 2012 That is certainly the case (in terms of the Company Masters and the Deathwing). I think this is a case where the fluff is over-handed, though. I don't see now taking bikes and Land Speeders preserves secrets. They got there with a Strike Cruiser and still have Thunderhawks at their disposal. Unless the Ravenwing is a significantly oversized Company, the fact of the matter is that the Dark Angels are remarkably understrength in terms of mobility... in order to reinforce fluff... in a sort of non-sensical way (I think). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
librisrouge Posted September 23, 2012 Share Posted September 23, 2012 The part that always got to me about that aspect of the fluff was that Ravenwing recruit based heavily on skill with light vehicles...which they apparently never get to display until they're in the Ravenwing. I like to assume that DA have enough of those resources that the proper companies still have some (though potentially less that other chapters since the majority would still be concentrated in the 2nd company.) I believe I read something, somewhere that said some DW were never RW since they are loyal, strong, secretive, etc. but can't drive worth a hoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted September 23, 2012 Author Share Posted September 23, 2012 I'm with you, librisrouge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted September 23, 2012 Share Posted September 23, 2012 Here's the deal: Back in 2nd Ed, the description of the 8th Comp (p. 36 of Codex Angels of Death for those that care to look it up) it says and I quote: The 8th Company is an Assault company consisting of 10 Assault squads. This is the most mobile company and is often equipped with jump packs, bikes and land speeders. The 8th Company is used in the assault role and wherever a strong hand-to-hand fighting force is needed. So voila: background for green bikes and speeders! :P However it was no entry in the list for non-RW bikes. Assault marines were only allowed jump packs (in fact if they were split into two demisquads one could have jump pack and the other not!) but no green bikes... Enter 3rd Ed. In 3rd the plot thickens as the force organization does not mention bikes and speeders for the 8th Comp. at all. BUT on p.9 in the side-text it has some intersting info: Firstly RW troopers are oblivious to the fall, they have no clue. Secondly (and far more relevant to this discussion ;)) in the last paragraph of the side-text is says and I quote: In addition to the Ravenwing being equipped to employ bikes and Land Speeders, the Sixth Company can call upon brethern trained to ride bikes into battle, and the Seventh Company has access to Space Marines trained in the use of Land Speeders. What'd ya know? Background for green bikes and speeders again. And this time there was an entry in the Army List too! :tu: It said: In addition to attached Ravenwing squadrons, a Dark Angels force may choose Bike Squadrons, Attack Bike Squadrons, Land Speede Tornados and Land Speeder Typhoons from Codex Space Marines at the cost specified there. It then went about saying that the units chosen this way do not get the RW special rules nor could they be used in a RW-only army. ENTER THE 4th EDITION: i) Force Organization Chart (p.15): ONLY RW has access to bikes, attack bikes, and Land speeders of any description. ii) On the description of the Chapter on a company per Company basis, only RW is mentioned to have access to bikes LS and ABs. The entries for 6th, 7th and 8th Companies do not mention anything of the sort. All bikes, LS and Attack bikes are in the RW - and the army list reflects that. So for years the concept of green bikes was very much alive and kicking. Only the 4th Edition Codex put an end to that both in terms of background AND rules. Let's see what our 5th Codex will bring - now that the 6th Edition of 40k is upon us! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted September 23, 2012 Author Share Posted September 23, 2012 Thanks, Semper. This made me feel better! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted September 23, 2012 Share Posted September 23, 2012 Glad to be of service! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grotsmasha Posted September 23, 2012 Share Posted September 23, 2012 Personally I'm in favour of Green Bikes/Speeders as the members of the RW need to get their exp somewhere..... Cheers, Jono Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
librisrouge Posted September 23, 2012 Share Posted September 23, 2012 Personally I'm in favour of Green Bikes/Speeders as the members of the RW need to get their exp somewhere..... Cheers, Jono That has always been my view as well. I've even allied in some bikes from C:SM in one game to represent battle company squads of bikes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted September 23, 2012 Share Posted September 23, 2012 Despite 3rd DA Codex allowing Greenwing bikes an speeders no one (or not many) ever took them as they didn't get Jink save nor were they considered very characterful. I just think GW thought: "to hell with it, no one's using them – we'll make 'em all 2nd Company". Also I think in terms of the 4th DA Codex change to bikes and speeders being RW only – it was an attempt by GW to force people into using the RW/DW combo. [edit: also back in 3rd DA Codex there were Scout bikes, another possible RW training ground]. The previous fluff (and the pre-Ravenwing greenwing training for these vehicles) was conveniently 'overlooked' in 4th Codex <_<. Cheers I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alys Dwr Posted September 23, 2012 Share Posted September 23, 2012 I think it'd be daft for the DA to not include more bikes and speeders than just the RW. In my mind there have always been green bikers. Otherwise i couldn't reconcile the selection process for elevating marines to the RW. Also I think in terms of the 4th DA Codex change to bikes and speeders being RW only – it was an attempt by GW to force people into using the RW/DW combo The previous fluff (and the pre-Ravenwing greenwing training for these vehicles) was conveniently 'overlooked' in 4th Codex :P. It's my personal opinion that the reason 4th dropped the green bikers was sheer laziness on behalf of the codex development team. The whole book lacked anything overly exciting or characterful, poked several holes in the existing fluff, ignored existing fluff, and went and killed off/omitted several named characters. The half hearted attempt at a codex was bound to miss obvious basics (such as codex structuring and minimal operation) when no effort was made to maintain anything special or to be creative. In that vein, it's understandable that green bikers and speeders were dropped. In our next codex it may well be that we see a return of company bikers at standard points costs, with a premium for Elite RW with teleport homers and an extra attack. Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Sergeant Bohemond Posted September 23, 2012 Share Posted September 23, 2012 I think its safe to say that they would use them. However it is not currently included in our fluff. Im one of those who thinks we should have Green Bikes and Speeders :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Kovash Posted September 23, 2012 Share Posted September 23, 2012 I would personally love to include bikes and speeders into my regular Battle Company. I would like to think that if a Company Master wanted a group of bikers available for his deployment, he would not have to requisition a Ravenwing squad beforehand and be let down in case none were available at the time. Instead, he would have the bikes available for use at a moments notice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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