TDA and Reserves

[jeffersonian000]

So, per the rule book, we may place no more than 50% of our armies in reserve. Yet there seems to be a number of acceptions such as units being transported not counting towards this limit, nor units the have to start in reserve counting either. Search Fu turned no topics on the subject of how Terminator units interact with this rule, since their "may always be placed in reserve ..." is a specific rule that may override the general rule of having a 50% limit. And while we all know the tactic isn't sound to reserve a 100% of your army with the auto-lose rule in effect, the question I have have is can you legally reserve your TDA units regardless of the 50% limit?

 

SJ

[dswanick]

So, per the rule book, we may place no more than 50% of our armies in reserve. Yet there seems to be a number of acceptions such as units being transported not counting towards this limit, nor units the have to start in reserve counting either. Search Fu turned no topics on the subject of how Terminator units interact with this rule, since their "may always be placed in reserve ..." is a specific rule that may override the general rule of having a 50% limit. And while we all know the tactic isn't sound to reserve a 100% of your army with the auto-lose rule in effect, the question I have have is can you legally reserve your TDA units regardless of the 50% limit?

 

SJ

No. 'May always' is not 'Must'. Only 'Must' (and units embarked on a 'Must' transport) ignores the 50% Reserve rules.

[DarkGuard]

dswanick has it right (as usual). They can be deployed normally and not in reserves, therefore they aren't exempt from the Reserve rule as they aren't a unit that must always begin the game in Reserves.

 

You're reading too much into that sentence jeffersonian000, especially as it's from a 5th Ed Codex. :D

[Acebaur]

So basically you can no longer DS a Deathwing army? That is kind of lame

[Toasterfree]

not true. if you can take drop pods as a dedicated transport, pods MUST start in reserves.

[Acebaur]

not true. if you can take drop pods as a dedicated transport, pods MUST start in reserves.

 

I'm pretty sure no one can take TDA in DP's anymore

[Venemox]

Did they take the DP option away from Wolf Guard?

 

I think we're focusing too much on the may and not enough on the always in the sentence.

 

The may says you have the option to, but are not required to. Another definition of may has nothing to do with permission, but ability. The always says you have the right to, without exception.

 

I see this sentence and I read 'They have the ability (may) without exception (always) to start the game in reserve,...' The rest not being in dispute.

 

TDA (and Deathwing Assault) rules supercede and modify the rules for reserves and deepstrike presented in the BRB. Codex rules trump the advance rules, which trump the basic rules. I think this particular statement has been discussed in great detail throughout various threads, and upheld.

 

Interpreting the rule such that applicable TDA equipped units cannot start in reserve, for ANY REASON, effectively removes the word 'always' from their associated rule in their codex.

[Grey Mage]

You can always do so, regardless of the mission type being deployed. That doesnt mean you can circumvent the number of them allowed to.

 

If, for whatever reason, you werent allowed to deepstrike in a scenario then terminators still can. That doesnt imply that they dont count against your reserves.

[dswanick]

not true. if you can take drop pods as a dedicated transport, pods MUST start in reserves.

 

I'm pretty sure no one can take TDA in DP's anymore

Codex: Space Wolves Wolf Guard can still put TDA in Drop Pods.

The may says you have the option to, but are not required to. Another definition of may has nothing to do with permission, but ability. The always says you have the right to, without exception.

 

I see this sentence and I read 'They have the ability (may) without exception (always) to start the game in reserve,...' The rest not being in dispute.

Can TDA start the game deployed on the table? Yes.

Then if you choose to start them in Reserves, they count against your Reserve limit.

 

If you want your strict reading of the Deathwing rule where "always" overrides even the BRB Reserve limits then I point this out:

- yes, Deathwing Terminators have the Deathwing Assault "always Reserve" Codex rule.

- therefore you may override the Reserve restriction found in the BRB. They will still count against your limit (as the rule only specifies that they may always start in Reserve, not that they don't count against it like Flyers do), but may be Reserved none the less.

 

At which point, if you had an army list of 1 TDA IC, 3X DWA TDA units, two InfiltratingOutflanking Scout squads, and one Predator you would not be able to InflitrateOutflank your scouts and would have to deploy them on the table. Because with 7 units, three would have to be deployed to allow four units in Reserve and the Deathwing Assault rule doesn't override the Reserve limit. Yes, if you had just the TDA units (4 units) they would all be able to start in Reserves due to DWA (4 Reserve, 0 deployed instead of 2/2). But without ignoring the limit you will find yourself constrained if you add any non-TDA units to the army list.

[narf]

At which point, if you had an army list of 1 TDA IC, 3X DWA TDA units, two Infiltrating Scout squads, and one Predator you would not be able to Inflitrate your scouts and would have to deploy them on the table. Because with 7 units, three would have to be deployed to allow four units in Reserve and the Deathwing Assault rule doesn't override the Reserve limit. Yes, if you had just the TDA units (4 units) they would all be able to start in Reserves due to DWA (4 Reserve, 0 deployed instead of 2/2). But without ignoring the limit you will find yourself constrained if you add any non-TDA units to the army list.

 

 

Que?

 

Course you can still infiltrate the scouts, they still deploy on the table, just after everyone else.

 

However you couldnt outflank the scouts if thats what you meant

[Toasterfree]

and the rule clearly states for that units that MUST always start in reserves do not count against this limit. that would include the unit and its dedicated transport, THUS units with flyers and dedicated transports or DPs can start null deployment. HOWEVER if you have no models on the table at the end of the game turn you lose.

[dswanick]

Course you can still infiltrate the scouts, they still deploy on the table, just after everyone else.

 

However you couldnt outflank the scouts if thats what you meant

Sorry, mistyped - I meant Outflank, not Infiltrate.

[Venemox]

You can always do so, regardless of the mission type being deployed. That doesnt mean you can circumvent the number of them allowed to.

 

If, for whatever reason, you werent allowed to deepstrike in a scenario then terminators still can. That doesnt imply that they dont count against your reserves.

 

 

So, you're saying that always doesn't always mean always?

 

The rule doesn't only say that you may always deepstrike them. It says you may always reserve them. Even, if, for whatever reason you weren't allowed to reserve them. No restriction need apply.

 

The may gives them permission to take the option, and the always describes when that option may be exercised.

 

It doesn't imply anything with regards to reserve limits and numbers, that I agree with. It does flat out state what you may do, and when you amy do it.

 

May what? Reserve! When? Always!

[Grey Mage]

You can always do so, regardless of the mission type being deployed. That doesnt mean you can circumvent the number of them allowed to.

 

If, for whatever reason, you werent allowed to deepstrike in a scenario then terminators still can. That doesnt imply that they dont count against your reserves.

 

 

So, you're saying that always doesn't always mean always?

 

The rule doesn't only say that you may always deepstrike them. It says you may always reserve them. Even, if, for whatever reason you weren't allowed to reserve them. No restriction need apply.

 

The may gives them permission to take the option, and the always describes when that option may be exercised.

 

It doesn't imply anything with regards to reserve limits and numbers, that I agree with. It does flat out state what you may do, and when you amy do it.

 

May what? Reserve! When? Always!

You can always spend your last five bucks on beef jerky at the store, that doesnt mean you can spend ten bucks on said jerky.

 

You can always choose the reserve them, but unless every single unit in your army is in TDA- wich is possible I note- theres no direct conflict with the reserve rules. And even if your army is all TDA its easy for me to see the the concept of 'sure, you can always put them there- but you have to find the room.

[Emperors Immortals]

Also, according to the new rules, any player turn that you have no units on the table for any reason means you loose.

 

Jump Pack BA armies got hit hard by this.

[ShadowHaunt]

Also, according to the new rules, any player turn that you have no units on the table for any reason means you loose.

 

Jump Pack BA armies got hit hard by this.

 

Correction: It's any GAME TURN, not player turn. Any Player Turn would leave Drop Pod armies to auto-lose if they don't get first turn.

[jeffersonian000]

My reading of the Reserves rules in the BRB are that up to 50% of the units in your army may be placed in reserve, with specific notes on units with special abilities or complex structures regarding being placed in reserve (ec, units that must be reserved don't count, nor do any units placed in reserved transports, nor sub-units filling the same unit slot such as dedicated transports, etc). In additon, there is the Specific > General rule that states Codex trumps BRB if a specific rule in the Codex changes a general rule in the BRB, and an offical erreta does not override the Codex. As such, TDA are listed in Codex as being able to be reserved regardless of mission conditions (which the BRB Reserves rule falls under).

 

Taken as a whole, TDA units should have the option to be excluded from the 50% limitation without question, based on the logic chain of TDA Codex special rule trumping BRB Reserves limitation general rule. And of course, keeping in mind the Auto-Lose rule makes the tactic of reserving your entire army a bad idea in general (if not in specific!).

 

Example: Your 1500pt army is composed of 4 units, all in TDA (2 HQ, 2 Troops). You choose to group the HQs with 1 of the Troops and reserve that "death star" while the remaining Troop squats on an objective at start of game. 2 HQs + 1 Troop = 75% of your units, comflicting with the BRB Reserves general rule. Yet your Codex states TDA units "may always by placed in reserve ...", giving you the ablility to legally choose this deployment plan (even if it courts a potential auto-lose scenario).

 

The only fault in that logic chain is the insistance of opponents that the BRB Reserves general may never be violated other than the general exceptions listed(which ignores the Codex > BRB rule).

 

The argument boils down to: Does "May always ..." = permission to trump a general BRB rule with a specific Codex rule. Per the BRB itself, "May always ..." = permission to excercise a Specific > General option, in this case the option to bypass the 50% Reserves general limitation if you so choose.

 

At least, that is my reading of the Reserves rule vs TDA "May alway ..." specific rule.

 

SJ

[Toasterfree]

The argument boils down to: Does "May always ..." = permission to trump a general BRB rule with a specific Codex rule. Per the BRB itself, "May always ..." = permission to excercise a Specific > General option, in this case the option to bypass the 50% Reserves general limitation if you so choose.

 

At least, that is my reading of the Reserves rule vs TDA "May alway ..." specific rule.

 

SJ

no may always does not trump. may always just means that regardless if reserves is a special rule or not they can always go into reserves.

 

MUST ALWAYS does not count against the 50% i.e flyers and drop pods.

[Polythemus]

To add a little perspective the phrasing of the rule en complemeta is (im paraphrasing) may always deep stirke even when the mission rules state their are no reserves allowed. So the rule was written to basically make termies a special case when there was a mission being played where reserves werent allowed. That being said i agree with the opinion that they still count against the no more than 50% can be reserved rule. This doesnt seem to be a big deal to me though since no one can null deploy anyway.

[dswanick]

This doesnt seem to be a big deal to me though since no one can null deploy anyway.

Umm ... Every Space Marine Codex with Drop Pods can null-deploy.

[Polythemus]

Ahh right, minor oversight there. My apologies.

[cielaq]

Look at it from the other side - if a unit can be deployed on table, it is not excluded from 50% rule. And Terminators can be deployed on table.

[Spacefrisian]

This doesnt seem to be a big deal to me though since no one can null deploy anyway.

Umm ... Every Space Marine Codex with Drop Pods can null-deploy.

 

Daemons say hi as well.

[jeffersonian000]

Look at it from the other side - if a unit can be deployed on table, it is not excluded from 50% rule. And Terminators can be deployed on table.

 

Incorrect. Per 6th Ed, all units can be held in reserve, but no more than 50% of an army's units may be held in reserve, where units that must be held in reserve not counting against the 50% limit. Units inside transport that must be reserved don't count towards the limit. Also, rounding, per the modifier rule, means that armies with odd numbers of units can place 1 more in reserve that even number armies. That is a complex rule, with quite a few exceptions to it.

 

In the case of TDA, they have a "May Alway ..." clause that implies choice. Following the Specific over General rule in the BRB that gives permission for Codex special rules to trump BRB general rules, "May Alway ..." can be read as a Specific option to bypass a General limitation. So while Terminators can be deployed on the table, they may always take the option of being reserved regardless of mission limitations. And since the 50% rule is listed as a Mission limitation, TDA have Specific permission to bypass this General limit.

 

SJ

[Jacinda]

You may always reserve them. But because you chose to reserve something else instead in no way gives you permission to also reserve the terms over the limit.

 

Why are we still arguing about this?