The Fallen: How many?

[Captain Semper]

So, how many Fallen are we talking about at the time of the Fall of Caliban? I beleive that the initial batch following Luther was ca 500, but from then on, what?

 

I know there was a similar thread some time back (maybe a year or so?) but I cannot trace it. So let's try to work out the order of magnitude of the Fallen force and ultimately work out the size of the Legion post Fall...

 

So persumably Luther stopped sending new recruits to the Legion only after the Heresy started given the Warp storms. The Heresy lasted what, 7 years? So how many "generations" of new Marines could he manage up to that point? Two? And what was the capacity of Caliban per generation?

 

And that's assuming no more singnificant purging of the Legion took place. Which probably did...

 

Can anyone contribute here?

 

Thx

[Reinen]

The Heresy lasted what, 7 years? So how many "generations" of new Marines could he manage up to that point? Two?

 

Five years to grow up Space Marine are required (from 13 to 18 years).

Luther didn't grow up any special Chaos Space Marines.

They were usual Space Marines. "Imperial sample" :P))

Veterans of the Crusade too rebelled.

 

And that's assuming no more singnificant purging of the Legion took place. Which probably did...

Can anyone contribute here?

 

At least one Order was on Caliban.

Even taking into account military losses Fallens remained "loads and loads". ;)

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

I would say around 5000-15,000

 

The real question is how many of them survived.

 

I think we can say that there were probably around 2 Orders on Caliban, then there would have been recruits that had been recruited. Maybe we can stretch the number to 3 Orders, and if we take a working number of 5000 Astartes per Order (roughly, as per 'The Lion' in The Primarchs) thats around 15000 Astartes on Caliban with a few thousand recruits.

 

I am sure we did not leave half our Legion behind, as many are wont to claim. The reason for this is because it would have gotten harder to justify, and it appears that el'Jonson was not as paranoid as many believe he was until after the HH really started, and this was a result of Peterabo's and Luther's betrayals that he found out about.

 

If we take into account considerable losses from the war and destruction of Caliban, we are probably looking at somewhere just over 5000 that escaped alive. But, really, this is all speculation and we do not really know.

[Reinen]

If we take into account considerable losses from the war and destruction of Caliban, we are probably looking at somewhere just over 5000 that escaped alive. But, really, this is all speculation and we do not really know.

 

Question about the survived...

 

On Caliban Fallens weren't completely crushed by a military way. The planet collapsed earlier. At the moment of Caliban's destruction still there was a fight. Still capable command remained.

IMHO -- Fighting losses of lutherites hardly were more than 50 %.

 

It is interesting to me... Why anybody, including the commander of planetary defense, Astelan, didn't try to protect Luther and Angeliсasta? ;) They at all didn't see a duel. They battled for themselves and somewhere away. At least, it follows from known summary. Luther bothered his supporters? :tu: The book about fight on Caliban is necessary to answer all questions.

 

But, really, this is all speculation and we do not really know.

 

These are hypotheses.

And suddenly they correct? :P

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

If we take into account considerable losses from the war and destruction of Caliban, we are probably looking at somewhere just over 5000 that escaped alive. But, really, this is all speculation and we do not really know.

 

Question about the survived...

 

On Caliban Fallens weren't completely crushed by a military way. The planet collapsed earlier. At the moment of Caliban's destruction still there was a fight. Still capable command remained.

IMHO -- Fighting losses of lutherites hardly were more than 50 %.

 

It is interesting to me... Why anybody, including the commander of planetary defense, Astelan, didn't try to protect Luther and Angeliсasta? ;) They at all didn't see a duel. They battled for themselves and somewhere away. At least, it follows from known summary. Luther bothered his supporters? :tu: The book about fight on Caliban is necessary to answer all questions.

 

But, really, this is all speculation and we do not really know.

 

These are hypotheses.

And suddenly they correct? :P

 

In many ways, I do not want a book on the final duel, Id rather have it end with the Lion teleporting down and then Corswain finds Luther a gibbering wreck when he arrives afterwards and thats the end.

 

But, I think what we would discover is that the Lion and Luther slaughter each others guards, bar Corswain (who was left on the ship, precedent from The Lion) and Zahariel (Cypher?) This would leave just the two titanic warriors to duel it out until the end, which we know.

 

Perhaps Astelan was at another part of Caliban? Also, onto casualties, if I recall correctly, the Legion blew up fortresses of Caliban and killed those inside them, or large numbers anyway and then the world split apart as a result of Chaos' anger. Even if it was just 50%, thats still really heavy casualties.

[Reinen]

In many ways, I do not want a book on the final duel, Id rather have it end with the Lion teleporting down and then Corswain finds Luther a gibbering wreck when he arrives afterwards and thats the end.

 

I am not interested in the duel description specifically. I want to understand tactics and strategy of all battle.

 

But, I think what we would discover is that the Lion and Luther slaughter each others guards, bar Corswain (who was left on the ship, precedent from The Lion) and Zahariel (Cypher?) This would leave just the two titanic warriors to duel it out until the end, which we know.

 

May be. However, actions of the Lion look strange. Why such risk was necessary? It was simpler to destroy all planet from an orbit.

 

Perhaps Astelan was at another part of Caliban?

 

200 or 300 kilometers from Angeliсasta. Astelan could send to Luther reinforcements or teleport there personally. But didn't make it. It seems, he was more interested in a survival his SМ.

 

Also, onto casualties, if I recall correctly, the Legion blew up fortresses of Caliban and killed those inside them, or large numbers anyway and then the world split apart as a result of Chaos' anger. Even if it was just 50%, thats still really heavy casualties.

 

Yes. But 7000-8000 pre-heresy SM, who are it is not known where, it is a big headache. To take one fallen, some DA always die.

 

P.S. From the codex 4 editions cleaned a mention that the Lion sleeps in the Rock. I do not know that will be in the new codex, but probably for the Lion they thought up other destiny.

[Ordo Machinum]

More speculation:

 

If we can go by the HH books, then there may have been 25 great companies (if it was good for the Lunar Wolves, why not us too?).

 

25 Great Companies = 25,000 marines = 250 Company Commanders.

 

According to Angels of Darkness, 130 Company Commanders turned against the Lion.

 

130 Company Commander = 13,000 Fallen.

 

By the time the dust settled on Caliban...or, rather, when Caliban settled into dust & debris, there could have been 6,000 surviving marines, Fallen and DA, on each side. Brother vs brother. Each as capable as the other. Both die as hard.

 

For the DA, their chapter was split:

DA = 1,000

AoAbsolution = 1,000

AoRedemption = 1,000

AoVengeance = 1,000

AoVigilance = 1,000 (if they are a successor?)

BoCovenant = 1,000

 

For the Fallen...

6,000 divided by ...oh, lets say over the last 10,000 years 1 Fallen has popped out of the warp every 5 years --- since everything in the DA codex seems to be divisible by 5 --- which gives us 2,000 Fallen that have come back to the Imperium. Allowing for death, dismemberment, redemption at the blades of inscrupulous Interrogator-Chaplains...let's divide by another 5 just for aging & space & time, there is likely still 400 Fallen around at the present. Give or take.

 

The other 4,000 Fallen Angels are still unaccounted for. This theory can be adjusted up or down to your individual outlook.

 

Maybe we should divide by a factor of 8, in honour of the Chaos powers that swept them all away from Caliban?

 

This would leave 156 Fallen around at present with 4750 still unaccounted for/returned to the Imperium.

 

Cheers,

[Reinen]

divide by another 5 just for aging

 

I thought, marines of 1 foundation don't grow old. They can be killed only.

 

This would leave 156 Fallen

 

If 6 chapters battle against 156 warriors and can't catch or kill them it badly.

What shame... :D

 

The quantity of Fallens should be is much bigger! :lol:

[Ordo Machinum]

divide by another 5 just for aging

 

I thought, marines of 1 foundation don't grow old. They can be killed only.

 

Well, the Imperium has been a pretty rough place in the last 10,000 years. Let's just change aging to more being killed. Or, they've gone into the warp to hang around their other 10,000 year old brethren.

[Bryan Blaire]

Going by the Horus Heresy series, the number of Marines per Legion has been steadily increasing per book, it seems. In Fear to Tread, the Blood Angels seem to number in the range of 150,000+ Marines. I don't have my book with me right now, but the 25,000 number seems way, way too low. Probably should start at the 100k mark and start from there for more accurate accounting.

 

Personally, I have a hard time accounting for that many Marines being lost in the Heresy. Assuming that each Legion had around the same number of Marines, to go from approximately 900,000 Loyalist Marines to only 37 known First and Second Founding Chapters represents a loss of approximately 860,000 Marines. Even if you adjust that figure up to 50,000 surviving Marines, we're still talking an approximate 94.5% loss of Marines on the Loyalist side. Now, some of that could be due to a "weaker" class of Marine recruit, but TBH, those numbers are extreme.

[Reinen]

Let's just change aging to more being killed.

 

Yes. Fallens were killed not only hands of DA. They participated in different wars.

[Reinen]

By the way...

Fallens at the expense of temporary jump not 10 000 years old.

Some hundred years old of all. Except those who became haosit.

 

Borroleth -- 10 000 (he so told).

Astelan -- 100+200+80=380

Meflas, Anovel ~ 200-300

Cypher... About his it is not known.

[Phoebus]

I'm pretty sure you can arrive at a plausible answer for the number of Fallen before the destruction of Caliban without conjecture. I'll double check and post in a couple of hours, but I think "Fallen Angels" has Luther specifically citing how many Astartes he can crank out with the optimized recruitment/training cycle.

[Captain Semper]

I'm pretty sure you can arrive at a plausible answer for the number of Fallen before the destruction of Caliban without conjecture. I'll double check and post in a couple of hours, but I think "Fallen Angels" has Luther specifically citing how many Astartes he can crank out with the optimized recruitment/training cycle.

 

Yeah, I have no access at my books at the moment, so that'll be great...

[Ordo Machinum]

Going by the Horus Heresy series, the number of Marines per Legion has been steadily increasing per book, it seems. In Fear to Tread, the Blood Angels seem to number in the range of 150,000+ Marines. I don't have my book with me right now, but the 25,000 number seems way, way too low. Probably should start at the 100k mark and start from there for more accurate accounting.

 

Too bad they weren't given an estimate of 40K each. :rolleyes:

 

Even by expanding the DA Legion to 250,000, and using AoD's list of 130 Fallen commanders for 130,000 Fallen, by saying only a third of the Fallen survived Caliban still leaves about 4300 Fallen.

 

Dispensing them as I did above throughout 10,000 years still gives the same answer with only 2000 Fallen remaining unaccounted for. Even your estimate allows for the same amount hanging around in the Imperium at present (well, whichever point of the Imperium one could be referring to anyway - I keep shaking my clock and it ticks very randomly).

 

That's the fun with conjecture. I just chalk it up to all of the novels being fluffy but not entirely accurate. The dark times of the HH left records lost etc and their later garbled translations throughout the ages as making almost everything questionable.

 

This is one reason why I don't have a problem with Fallen armies. It has been demonstrated Fallen are in small groups. The Eye of Terror campaign a few years ago had Cyph..er The Voice of the Emperor drawing more Fallen together. Cypher has been reported stealing DA geneseed. What's a hundred more marines, more or less. Anything goes, pretty much, in the 40K universe.

[Reinen]

...Cypher has been reported stealing DA geneseed...

Fallen Angels have no neither uniform army, nor uniform views. They don't undertake the incorporated campaigns. Strangely enough, they seldom attack the first.

Otherwise problems would be much more.

By example, their diversionary operation on Kadillus.

[Bryan Blaire]

Couple of things:

1) I was not participating in the conjecture on the Fallen, merely trying to get everyone onto the same page so that the discussion might be fruitful. If everyone isn't starting from the same place, then it's hard to get anywhere, even with the same directions.

2) The Horus Heresy doesn't seem to be being written with any kind of "garbling" involved, IMO. For once, we seem to be getting the straight up story. Make of that what you will, but I'd there is an insistence of "garbling" and there is no agreement on the "garbled" portions, then you also can't have fruitful discussion.

 

Now, Archangel, specifically where did you get the "only 1/3rd of the Fallen survived the battle at Caliban" value from? Also, I doubt seriously that the Dark Angels ever numbered in the 250K Marines range.

 

I actually don't have a problem with a Fallen army in the "end times" of the game, but they wouldn't really fit, IMO, at say M37.982. That's just one reason I'd like to see the time line for the game system edge forward just a little bit.

[Augustus]

Fallen Angels: Luther has the time to create space marines down to 24 months.

 

"Brother Luther and the training masters concur that further reduction of the cycle time would only degrade the fitness of new recruits, so we’ve reached an optimal training time of twenty-four months, incorporating accelerated surgical implantation into an ongoing regimen of conditioning and instruction. Current projections indicate that we will have another five thousand new Astartes ready for battle by late 315."

 

Astelan is to present " four thousand, two hundred and twelve new Astartes" or around the size of a new order.

 

The Lion: "The Fourth, Sixth, Ninth, Sixteenth, Seventeenth and Thirtieth Orders are to muster at Balaam.’

‘More than thirty thousand warriors!’ said Tragan, forgetting himself. He bowed his head in apology when the Lion directed a sharp glare at him."

 

more than 5000 in each order?

 

So how many orders?

[Reinen]

Fallen Angels: Luther has the time to create space marines down to 24 months.

 

Why Corax didn't cope with this task and told "never more"?

[Cypher 102]

The answer to that question is here.

[Reinen]

The answer to that question is here.

 

It seems to me, I thought about another. 24 months are too small term.

[Phoebus]

It seems to me, I thought about another. 24 months are too small term.

The training cycle for the Space Marines being accelerated is actually an old concept. It goes back to the old Index Astartes articles.

 

"Fallen Angels" starts in the 147th year of the Great Crusade. Zahariel passes his logistical report on to the Lion on the 200th year. He provides the number of Astartes produced in this latest training cycle (4,212), and the fact that they've had a 20% increase each cycle. He also states that there have been 19 training cycles thus far. The current training cycle lasts roughly 2 years. By the end of the Horus Heresy (which lasted 7 years), Luther would thus have completed 3.5 training cycles. Let's say he was able to finish that the fourth one before the Lion returned. Assuming that there was no further improvement (they already had a 98% certification rate), Luther would have had 16,848 Space Marines, plus his training Chapters (which originally numbered "more than five hundred", but needed to be increased three times).

 

Thus, all together, I'd say Luther had less than 20,000 Space Marines right before the destruction of Caliban.

 

As an aside, the Blood Angels numbered roughly 120,000 Space Marines as of the beginning of "Fear to Tread".

 

No number is given for the Dark Angels Legion, but we now know that the "average" Legions were around the 100,000 mark, with a "small" Legion like the Raven Guard being around 80,000 strong.

 

The Dark Angels certainly incurred losses during the Horus Heresy, but... unless we see something drastic later... they cannot have been critical. By that, I mean that the Night Lords lost 25% of their Legion in the final battle of Thramas and they considered themselves crippled. This battle occurs three years into the Heresy, so the Dark Angels have to go through four more years of fighting without reinforcements. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that they finish off the Heresy with the same overall losses: 75% of the Legion remains intact.

 

So 75,000 (approximately) Dark Angels return to Caliban. We know that they didn't expect to be shot at by the planetary defenses, so let's say as much as 10% of their fleet and manpower was destroyed before they withdrew to figure out what was going on. That's pretty generous, given what we saw in "Know No Fear" - meaning, they probably didn't lose THAT many, but it's a good round number.

 

So now more than 65,000 Dark Angels and their fleet attack Caliban, which is defended only by ground installations and - at most - 20,000 Fallen. That number roughly corresponds with the 136 Fallen commanders from "Angels of Darkness".

 

The Lion chose to launch a surgical strike against Luther's stronghold. At the same time, his fleet was bombarding Caliban until "many monasteries were reduced to miles-wide craters ..." (Codex: Dark Angels). The older "Angels of Death" Codex states that the Dark Angels "easily" defeated Caliban's planetary defenses. Thus, even if we assume the Fallen killed multiple Dark Angels in return for every one of their own casualties (which defeats military logic, but whatever), the Loyalists would end the battle with an excess of 50-60,000 Astartes. But we know it wasn't a fight to the end. The Fallen escaped thanks to Chaos. How many did? Well, you can't really know. I assume the orbital bombardment killed a great deal of the Fallen. By the time the Lion and Luther fought, the Fallen were probably no longer a cohesive force.

 

Given especially the picture that the orbiting fleet could just turn the fortress monasteries to paste, my guess is that less than 1,500 survived the onslaught of the Dark Angels. These were probably small groups - survivors in ruined Fortress Monasteries, small bands fighting hit-and-run battles, etc. Nothing about the fluff implies that a large number of Fallen survived, anyways. They're not a major group in 40k. Dark Angels fluff focuses on the Fallen, but they don't appear often. Both the old and the new Codices state that the Dark Angels can go for years without hearing even rumors about the Fallen.

 

EDIT: Damn you, Augustus!!! <_<

 

EDIT 2: No answer is given on how many Orders there are. At the Black Library Bloghole, though, Gav did state that the Order's numerical designations do NOT imply that many consecutively numbered Orders. Thus, we shouldn't assume there are thirty Orders (and thus 150,000 Dark Angels).

[Bryan Blaire]

Too small a term for what? I'll agree that it's blazing fast for creating, training and equipping a Marine, but at the same time, it seems like the training and indoctrination are different from post Heresy plans (less indoctrination, less hypno-whatever, no Scout term - just straight into power armor, so possibly less initial skill compared to 40K Marines until they've trained for a while). I also feel like they might have been using "lesser stock" than later Marines, simply because when you have fewer "admissions slots", then you really do want to pick the best of the best, but when you have the capability to convert even 10% of a planet's young men to Marines every two-three years, you might as well rely more on your modifications and training instead of pure demonstrated skill and tenacity/viciousness first.

 

Edit: Very nice, Phoebus!

 

If I had to take a guess-timate and not really put a lot of math behind it, I'd probably put the Fallen somewhere around the 1-3k mark, because until GW/BL writes something specific, we just can't really know. We don't know how many Marines may have turned on the Lion in the Fleet and become Fallen (I'm not sure that anything specifies that there were none, so I assume some, but not many), I don't think we have a real exact estimate of actual Marines on Caliban that may NOT have become Fallen and were probably overwhelmed and killed relatively quickly, and we don't know just how many more Marines the Lion may have sent back to Caliban that were not there to be part of the training cadre but still turned to Luther. Phoebus' numbers on losses during the Crusade and Heresy sound about right (although it makes no sense for only 3 named Successors of the DA to have been generated, unless they somehow took much more serious losses than we think trying to get to Terra and returning home - the earlier 94.5% total Marines lost I said earlier), but we really have no idea on just how frequently Fallen have been spit out either. I'm not sure that a random repeated interval is actually appropriate to any kind of calculation on this.

[Reinen]

I assume the orbital bombardment killed a great deal of the Fallen. By the time the Lion and Luther fought, the Fallen were probably no longer a cohesive force.

 

This statement contradicts the codex of 4 editions and some books. It is not necessary to forget that Luther actually won a duel.

The victory of Chaos was prevented not by Lion, but a short enlightenment of mind of Luther.

[Reinen]

By the way, anybody never could answer my favourite question. Why the Lion didn't destroy Caliban from an orbit?

Why he undertook heavy and bloody assault with doubtful result?

Primarсh was the rationalist and the strategist. Emotional actions aren't characteristic for it. The answer is useless to look for in the codex. In this case the imagination and speculation is necessary. :lol:

 

So now more than 65,000 Dark Angels and their fleet attack Caliban, which is defended only by ground installations and - at most - 20,000 Fallen. That number roughly corresponds with the 136 Fallen commanders from "Angels of Darkness".

 

I approximately speak about it. To lose usual fight at triple advantage it is impossible. However, the planet is infected with chaos, and it is unusual fight. The heavy are probable are guaranteed all the same.

The fallen had no fleet, it was lost in civil war, including Astelan's battle barge. It was possible to suppress an antiaircraft artillery and to purgе a planet from an orbit. Why the Lion risked itself and came to Angelicasta??