The Fallen: How many?

[march10k]

But 7000-8000 pre-heresy SM, who are it is not known where, it is a big headache.

 

 

"Where" is not the problem, "When" is. However many fallen there are, they're scattered into the future...so the better question is "how many fallen are there NOW." And of those, how many are "out in public," as opposed to hiding in the eye and whatnot. I would guess that, at any given time, there are not more than half a dozen of them "available" to be hunted...

[Phoebus]

Regarding the size of the Dark Angels: http://www.thebolthole.org/forum/viewtopic...0&start=180

 

They are one of the "normal-to-larger-sized legions, with warriors in excess of 100,000 at the outbreak of hostilities."

 

I assume the orbital bombardment killed a great deal of the Fallen. By the time the Lion and Luther fought, the Fallen were probably no longer a cohesive force.

This statement contradicts the codex of 4 editions and some books.

Actually... I quoted two of those Codices.

 

(Codex: Angels of Death, pg 12) The massed guns of the fleet easily disabled Caliban's defense laser batteroes and then scoured the planet, driving the rebel Dark Angels back to their fortress monasteries.

 

Knowing that one surgical strike was all that was needed to end the conflict Lion El'Jonson led an assualt on the greatest of the monasteries himself.

(Codex: Dark Angels, pg 9) Knowing that one surgical strike would end the conflict Lion El'Jonson led an assault on the Tower of Angels - the mighty fortress monastery in which Luther was esconced. ...

Meanwhile the massed guns of the fleet continued to pound the planet, until many monasteries were reduced to miles wide craters ...

And that's pretty much what I stated. That 20,000 (or so) Fallen (the estimate from "Fallen Angels") had to contend with a much larger force of Dark Angels who focused on blasting them from space and directly attacked just Luther's stronghold.

 

It is not necessary to forget that Luther actually won a duel.

The victory of Chaos was prevented not by Lion, but a short enlightenment of mind of Luther.

That is not what happens.

 

Codex: Angels of Death states that Luther was only able to match the Lion thanks to "being enhanced by the dark gods of Chaos." Codex: Dark Angels says the same thing. BOTH Codices state that Luther, "weakened by the long combat, staggered and fell, leaving himself open to a deathblow from Jonson's blade." At that point, the battle is won. The Lion did not want to kill him, though, and Luther was able to launch a psychic attack. Arguing that Luther won anything is semantics and technicalities. The Lion beat Luther, despite his augmented state. Had he been a more cold-hearted individual, Luther could not have stopped him from killing him.

 

By the way, anybody never could answer my favourite question. Why the Lion didn't destroy Caliban from an orbit?

Why he undertook heavy and bloody assault with doubtful result?

Primarсh was the rationalist and the strategist. Emotional actions aren't characteristic for it. The answer is useless to look for in the codex. In this case the imagination and speculation is necessary. :lol:

Because he's not as emotionless as you think. Since the beginning, the Lion has been described as someone who is slow to anger, but once roused expressing quite the fury. In this case, he found out that the Luther betrayed him for a second time. This is the same guy he let live after he almost let him be assassinated at Sarosh. I'm pretty sure the Lion wanted to see him die by his own hand. None of that comes from the Codex. :)

[Reinen]

Codex: Angels of Death, pg 12

 

This codex not for nothing cancelled. In it a logic mistake. If the victory was already gained, why the Lion went on Caliban?

 

Codex: Angels of Death states that Luther was only able to match the Lion thanks to "being enhanced by the dark gods of Chaos

 

It doesn't cancel me told - Luther almost won duel. Using chaos, perfidy, everything, but won. DA From defeat of separated one step. If the sudden attack of conscience didn't happen to Luther, Caliban wouldn't break up, and powers of Chaos more many that could do.

 

Because he's not as emotionless as you think. Since the beginning, the Lion has been described as someone who is slow to anger, but once roused expressing quite the fury. In this case, he found out that the Luther betrayed him for a second time

 

Because of these emotions the legion wasn't lost nearly. I prefer to look for other explanations nevertheless.

In the novella "The Lion" it is told that the Lion knew in advance that on Caliban mutiny. He knew about it even during war with NL. So any sudden anger couldn't be. Yes, I know that is written in the codex. But the codex it's official history of an Chapter. In it characters are strongly simplified.

[Bryan Blaire]

Re: the Lion's emotions: in one of the Codex discussion posts I posited that based on a statement from the 3rd Edition DA Codex, the Dark Angels have periods where "the Dark Angels will allow their tenacity to "overcome their better judgement" (that's actually a quote from the rule)" and that this could actually be something that they inherited from their Primarch. I don't think that's necessarily far from the truth and may actually be a bigger predisposition than the "master strategist" aspect. You can see that somewhat on display here: as Phoebus has said, it appears that despite the Lion giving him chances, Luther continues to back-stab him and upon return to Caliban and seeing what happens, the Lion's better judgement is overcome and he proceeds to let loose, not heeding his "strategic-mindedness" at all, but deciding that (whether it was a good call or not) he was taking care of this himself, damn the consequences, similar to the issue with Perturbo and the siege-engines, as well as the defiance of the Edict of Nikea and

death of Nemiel

. It's not a matter of him knowing it intellectually, it's a matter of him feeling it when he sets his eyes on his homeworld and "those bastard traitors of my foster-father begin firing on my sons, their own brothers!" The Lion loses control of himself, it's shown to happen time and again. I'm not sure what attack of conscience of Luther's you keep talking about (Luther went insane), but the Lion was the one that didn't strike Luther down when he could have. That had nothing to do with Caliban breaking up though, Luther and Chaos had nothing to do with that, the Dark Angels had already sealed the planet's fate with their own weapons. Caliban was going to burst to pieces regardless of who won the duel, the Lion or Luther.

[Captain Semper]

Phoebus, you've done an excellent analysis! This is great and exactly what I was looking for. I think, when the Librarium reopens you should take the test! :D

 

Anyway, I'd go for DAs being 150k strong at the eve of the Heresy, as DAs were a storng Legion numerically. And your 20k upper-end estimate seems too generous for the Fallen - I'd go for the lower-end estimate as the base case i.e. 15k.

 

So the dark purpose of this thread was not to estimate how many Fallen are out there but i) to refute the claim that 1/2 the Legion turned to Fallen (in fact ca 10% was all there was) and ii) that after all were said and done a good 60k Loyal DAs were divided to Chapters. Hence we're looking at something like 60 Primogenitor Chapters! :lol: Of which only three are documented!!!

 

So enough room for GW to come up with new 2nd Founding Chapters and certainly to play up the hidden Legion theme. :yes:

 

So anyone thinks the numbers are wildly off? For example, are there any indications that there were there any more tranfers of DAs to Caliban? More that displeased the Lion and got the silent treatment? :D This could be a source to severly unbalance the above estimates...

[Reinen]

Re: the Lion's emotions: in one of the Codex discussion posts I posited that based on a statement from the 3rd Edition DA Codex, the Dark Angels have periods where "the Dark Angels will allow their tenacity to "overcome their better judgement" (that's actually a quote from the rule)" and that this could actually be something that they inherited from their Primarch. I don't think that's necessarily far from the truth and may actually be a bigger predisposition than the "master strategist" aspect.

 

If Lion aspired to punish at any cost, it would shoot trouble-makers, instead of banished on Caliban. Astelan directly broke the order of primarch and lost operation on Altis.

Such officer according to the logic of things needs to be executed on a place. Astelan was reprimanded and went to prepare recruits.

Оurs primarch simply example of patience! :lol:

And about the primarch-strategist too it is written in the codex.

 

Oh, Nemiel... Yes! Lion killed Nemiil, he should finish off though one obstinate fool.

 

And if it is serious, the primarkh-strategist is pleasant to me more.

[Bryan Blaire]

What I don't think is taken into account is losses incurred on the way to the Siege of Terra, losses at Terra, and losses from action the DA took between leaving Terra and helping to clean up on the way back to Caliban. If they weren't replacing troops, the battle may not have been able to be fought at the 3:1 loyal:Fallen odds given. We "know" that the DA were fighting toward Terra after they "beat back" the Night Lords, we "know" there were still groups of Traitor Marines performing fighting withdrawals that the DA may have encountered and taken losses to. I'm not sure the 50% of the Legion number is accurate, but I don't think it would be wholly unrealistic for the Dark Angels to have returned to Caliban with only 40-50K Marines, in which case the potentially 20K Luther could have had would be something more like 1/3rd of the Legion's strength at that time.

 

Pleasant or not, it's been shown several times that the Lion reacts purely out of emotion for good or ill, and not just to punish, but because he himself doesn't fully understand his own emotions. He's not a pure strategist and his emotions override his judgement. Willfully denying this fact doesn't make a case against it any stronger.

[Reinen]

I have a hypothesis. Certainly, it is speculation, but based on the latest book... and codex... :D

 

All survived forces of a legion returned on Caliban. How many they were, I don't know. However, DA had the Tuchulcha which use increased chances of a victory without big losses. The ratio of forces wasn't of great importance any more. But then something was changed. Probably, Tuchulcha didn't meet expectation of the Lion. Primarсh didn't want to destroy a planet. Why?

I don't know. There were any secret reasons. Lion began land attack. He hoped that Luther's death will stop mutiny therefore decided to battle personally, using the possibilities. It could reduce military losses. That happened further, is described in the codex. Chaos appeared is strong and the Lion almost was lost.

 

Not from the codex: Probably, here again played a dirty trick Tuchulcha.

[Reinen]

Pleasant or not, it's been shown several times that the Lion reacts purely out of emotion for good or ill, and not just to punish, but because he himself doesn't fully understand his own emotions. He's not a pure strategist and his emotions override his judgement. Willfully denying this fact doesn't make a case against it any stronger.

 

Primarсh was showed differently. Paranoid lines of its character were shown also. However, his suspiciousness was combined with trustfulness. Who knew it completely? By the way, I don't know, what emotions forced it to pardon the violator of the order on Altis. Any soft justice.

[Phoebus]

This codex not for nothing cancelled. In it a logic mistake. If the victory was already gained, why the Lion went on Caliban?

Please don't ignore the rest of my post. Codex: Dark Angels (4th edition) says almost exactly the same thing. It's not a case of a Codex being "cancelled"... which, by the way, it wasn't. It was simply updated. A retcon only exists when a newer document contradicts the old one. In this case, as stated already, both Codices say the same thing.

 

It doesn't cancel me told - Luther almost won duel. Using chaos, perfidy, everything, but won.

I'm sorry but, no, he didn't. It's a description that's very simple and to the point: the Lion defeated Luther, decided not to kill him, and Luther hit him with his psychic attack.

 

DA From defeat of separated one step. If the sudden attack of conscience didn't happen to Luther, Caliban wouldn't break up, and powers of Chaos more many that could do.

Sorry, but where's the logic in your argument? Using the same logic, the Lion DEFINITELY won because if he didn't decide to hold his hand, Luther is dead.

 

Because of these emotions the legion wasn't lost nearly. I prefer to look for other explanations nevertheless.

It's your prerogative. The fact of the matter, though, is that fluff states that this is PRECISELY the reason why the Lion went on the surface. :D

 

In the novella "The Lion" it is told that the Lion knew in advance that on Caliban mutiny. He knew about it even during war with NL. So any sudden anger couldn't be. Yes, I know that is written in the codex. But the codex it's official history of an Chapter. In it characters are strongly simplified.

No, he heard innuendo from Curze and it is implied he is warned by the Watchers in the Dark. And even so, this doesn't contradict the prior depiction of his slow-rising anger. That's precisely how he approached his war with Curze. Following "Savage Weapons" and at the beginning of "The Lion", he is brooding and simmering in quiet anger. When he meets Curze again at the beginning of "Prince of Crows", though? :P

[Reinen]

Willfully denying this fact doesn't make a case against it any stronger.

 

Sorry, fighting brother. I didn't understand this phrase absolutely. You doubt my integrity?

[Reinen]

It's not a case of a Codex being "cancelled"... which, by the way, it wasn't.

 

Сompare their texts. Back considerably exchanged and not in sense only additions. The mention that the Lion sleeps in the rock disappeared.

 

I'm sorry but, no, he didn't. It's a description that's very simple and to the point: the Lion defeated Luther, decided not to kill him, and Luther hit him with his psychic attack.

 

Everything is true. Exactly so. But I also didn't speak about Luther's fair play. It is a victory in any ways. We discuss not morals, only the tactical.

 

Sorry, but where's the logic in your argument? Using the same logic, the Lion DEFINITELY won because if he didn't decide to hold his hand, Luther is dead.

 

Logic very simple. It is dangerous to hold a hand. Moral victory it is beautiful, but the legion lost primarch.

 

No, he heard innuendo from Curze and it is implied he is warned by the Watchers in the Dark. And even so, this doesn't contradict the prior depiction of his slow-rising anger. That's precisely how he approached his war with Curze. Following "Savage Weapons" and at the beginning of "The Lion", he is brooding and simmering in quiet anger. When he meets Curze again at the beginning of "Prince of Crows", though? msn-wink.gif

 

It could satisfy the anger on Caliban in Exterminatus-style. Isn't present? :)

But Lion during a duel spared Luther. Probably, the anger came to an end... heh!

[Artemid]

:snip: forgot there was a page 2 -.-

[Phoebus]

If Lion aspired to punish at any cost, it would shoot trouble-makers, instead of banished on Caliban.Astelan directly broke the order of primarch and lost operation on Altis.

Such officer according to the logic of things needs to be executed on a place. Astelan was reprimanded and went to prepare recruits.

Оurs primarch simply example of patience! :D

 

Oh, Nemiel... Yes! Lion killed Nemiil, he should finish off though one obstinate fool.

 

And if it is serious, the primarkh-strategist is pleasant to me more.

I'm not sure I understand you here. You seem to be saying that the Lion should have killed his "trouble-makers". But that's thinking with cold logic, but these characters are meant to have feelings. If you're the Lion and Luther was your best friend, your battle-brother... almost an adoptive father... would you be so quick to kill him? Remember, the Lion also had to have known that Luther ALMOST let him die, but then risked his life to save the Inexorable Reason. In addition, Luther was the second greatest hero of the Legion. If the Lion made it known what Luther had done, it would have been a tremendous blow to morale.

 

Astelan at best could be accused of failing a mission. That's no grounds to execute anyone.

 

Phoebus, you've done an excellent analysis! This is great and exactly what I was looking for. I think, when the Librarium reopens you should take the test! :D

Thanks! :)

 

Anyway, I'd go for DAs being 150k strong at the eve of the Heresy, as DAs were a storng Legion numerically.

Remember, though, that the Word Bearers were the second largest Legion at 150k. Gav himself said they were an average-above average Legion with strength in excess of 100K. As such, I'd say probably between 100-120k (which was the Blood Angels strength).

 

And your 20k upper-end estimate seems too generous for the Fallen - I'd go for the lower-end estimate as the base case i.e. 15k.

That's the thing, though... If Luther got four training cycles in before the destruction of Caliban, that's almost 17k warriors right there. And he specifically had enlarged his original training cadre of 500... so I think it's a minimum of 18k, and probably closer to 20k.

 

So the dark purpose of this thread was not to estimate how many Fallen are out there but i) to refute the claim that 1/2 the Legion turned to Fallen (in fact ca 10% was all there was) ...

Agreed 100%. I think that has always been a thematic statement, not an accurate one.

 

... and ii) that after all were said and done a good 60k Loyal DAs were divided to Chapters. Hence we're looking at something like 60 Primogenitor Chapters! :) Of which only three are documented!!!

Exactly. I agree 100% with this as well. I think the Apocrypha only detailed three Dark Angels Second Founding Chapters precisely because they were closing up their ranks. I think the last thing the Dark Angels wanted was for the Imperium to ask why they all of a sudden only had 60,000 or so warriors, or why they had no home planet. The Dark Angels and the Angels of Absolution, Redemption, and Vengeance are probably named because they were the most senior and thus the "face" of the Secret Legion after Caliban.

 

So anyone thinks the numbers are wildly off? For example, are there any indications that there were there any more tranfers of DAs to Caliban? More that displeased the Lion and got the silent treatment? :D This could be a source to severly unbalance the above estimates...

None are mentioned in "Fallen Angels". I think Astelan and anyone else like him was a case of individuals being sent home. The five hundred who went home with Luther were, IMHO, just for show. No one would have believed Luther was going home "to re-vamp the training program" on his own.

 

What I don't think is taken into account is losses incurred on the way to the Siege of Terra, losses at Terra, and losses from action the DA took between leaving Terra and helping to clean up on the way back to Caliban.

That's why I assume they were down to 75% combat strength before getting to Caliban. Remember, it took a decisive defeat the likes of which we never heard the Dark Angels suffering for the Night Lords to lose a quarter of their combat strength. So, without such a defeat, I think the Dark Angels would not necessarily have lost any great number of warriors in any one engagement.

 

We "know" that ... there were still groups of Traitor Marines performing fighting withdrawals that the DA may have encountered and taken losses to.

Exactly. Groups. Not a cohesive Legion, which is exactly why the Lion believes they'll be a force to be reckoned with in the eponymous novella. :)

 

Pleasant or not, it's been shown several times that the Lion reacts purely out of emotion for good or ill, and not just to punish, but because he himself doesn't fully understand his own emotions. He's not a pure strategist and his emotions override his judgement. Willfully denying this fact doesn't make a case against it any stronger.

Exactly.

[Phoebus]

Сompare their texts. Back considerably exchanged and not in sense only additions. The mention that the Lion sleeps in the rock disappeared.

I HAVE. :)

 

Look at them yourself, man. The two Codices describe the battle almost identically. The only difference being that the 4th edition doesn't mention the Lion hearing the truth about Luther from a merchant ship. Literally the only major difference is the fact that the 4th edition Codex doesn't describe the Lion being in the core of the Rock... but it also doesn't say he isn't.

 

Everything is true. Exactly so. But I also didn't speak about Luther's fair play. It is a victory in any ways. We discuss not morals, only the tactical.

Exactly. And the Lion won their duel. Luther was the one who was too weak to continue, and fell wounded. Ergo, the Lion won. Everything that happens from that point on comes down to morals.

 

Another way to look at it is if you and I got in a fist fight, and after a while you beat me so badly that I fell to the floor, unable to continue. You don't want to kill me, though, so you walk away. And then I take advantage of the situation and stab you in the back. Did I win the fist fight? No. I lost the fight but I subsequently murdered you.

 

Logic very simple. It is dangerous to hold a hand. Moral victory it is beautiful, but the legion lost primarch.

See above. That Luther managed to mortally wound the Lion and cost a Legion their Primarch is irrelevant to who actually won their duel. :D

[Bryan Blaire]

Willfully denying this fact doesn't make a case against it any stronger.

Sorry, fighting brother. I didn't understand this phrase absolutely. You doubt my integrity?

No, it's not a matter of integrity, it's a matter of looking at all the evidence and compiling a complete picture of the primarch to understand why he would forgo the strategically superior option for a rage-blinded hand to hand combat with his betrayer. You stated you find the Primarch-Strategist more pleasant. I simply stated that pleasant or not, the Lion is not a one-dimensional "strategically oriented" character. Denying that the stunted/misplaced emotional response aspect of the Primarch causes just as many actions as his strategically oriented responses makes the Lion a one-dimensional and uninteresting character and also removes a lot of well thought out writing on the part of the Codex and Black Library authors, trying to twist that same misplaced emotionality into "displays of patience" doesn't actually improve your case that the Lion acts purely on emotion, ofttimes with bad results (he pardons Luther because of his emotional attachment, he pardons Astelan's mistakes out of what could really only be fatherly kindness to see past mistakes made, but he punishes him for his failure by making him go train recruits - neither of these is a rational strategic choice).

[Phoebus]

Personally, I thought his exile of Luther was a very rational, calculated choice. He ensured damage to the morale of the Legion as a whole was minimized by sacrificing the morale of five hundred Terrans.

 

That's not to say he doesn't act heatedly and emotionally, though. See Nemiel, or his fight with Russ. :)

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

Lion won the duel, Luther won the fight :D

 

I thought it was said that the Word Bearers numbered near 200K Marines? Personally, I like the idea that we were the 3rd Largest Legion :)

 

Yes, there are a lot more successor chapters than we have listed, hence why I tried my hand at a DA second founding chapter (Angels of Caliban, see sig) that discusses this idea in further detail. I will also agree with the numbers of around 20,000 Astartes on Caliban at the time of the battle, the question remains, though: who survived?

[Bryan Blaire]

That's why I assume they were down to 75% combat strength before getting to Caliban. Remember, it took a decisive defeat the likes of which we never heard the Dark Angels suffering for the Night Lords to lose a quarter of their combat strength. So, without such a defeat, I think the Dark Angels would not necessarily have lost any great number of warriors in any one engagement.

Oh, it very much could be, I'm just hedging my bets that there could be some disastrous defeats on both the Loyalist and the Traitor side that we haven't heard about yet, that's why I'm not willing to go more concrete on my assessment of their fighting strength by the time they get back to Caliban. For all we know, the BL HH series will show that all the legions lost 50% of their men at the Siege of Terra or the aftermath/retreat after Horus' death. I doubt everything fell to 100% pieces for the Traitor legions immediately, so I think it's plausible that the DA could have run headlong into one, etc, who really knows. That's why I'm willing to say that the Dark Angels returning to Caliban could have been anywhere from 40-85% of their total fighting strength when they returned.

 

What I'm not willing to say is that the Black Library authors haven't thought through the numbers in the remaining Legions on how to deplete them down toward 40K levels before the end of the Heresy series. I think assuming that there were 50-60K Dark Angels running around that could divide to become 50-60 chapters sounds like too much to me and strains the setting's credibility in my mind.

 

As far as Luther, I think that what you said, Phoebus, played into it, but the Lion knows he's been betrayed and it's by his foster father, and I don't think he really knows how to feel about that. The exile to me was a compromise between his strategic concepting, his devotion to his "father", and his rage at the betrayal. I think it also shows the Lion's emotional side that while it isn't natural for him, he does seem to keep trying to trust others (for good or ill), and seems even more let down because of this. It almost becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy for him.

[Phoebus]

Oh, it very much could be, I'm just hedging my bets that there could be some disastrous defeats on ... the Loyalist ... side that we haven't heard about yet, ...

HERESY!!! :lol:

 

What I'm not willing to say is that the Black Library authors haven't thought through the numbers in the remaining Legions on how to deplete them down toward 40K levels before the end of the Heresy series. I think assuming that there were 50-60K Dark Angels running around that could divide to become 50-60 chapters sounds like too much to me and strains the setting's credibility in my mind.

Well, consider this: page 7 of Codex: Grey Knights states that "there were barely four hundred Space Marine Chapters commissioned" in the Second Founding.

 

Who formed those Chapters? Certainly not the Salamanders. The Raven Guard were all but annihilated, and we know that they were only able to account for the named Successor Chapters. That's two out nine Loyal legions already.

 

Then you have the Blood Angels, White Scars, and Imperial Fists. They had to have been mauled during the Siege of Terra, though. For the Fists, they also had the potential debacle of the Iron Cage.

 

The Space Wolves had gone through Prospero only created a single Successor... for obvious reasons.

 

So we have the Ultramarines, the Iron Hands, and the Dark Angels. The Iron Hands are kind of a wild card in mind, though. Without their Primarch and their Veterans (whom they lost at Isstvan), I think they lacked direction... and this was complicated by their hot-tempered approach to warfare and the fact that they seem to have struck out as loners after Ferrus was slain. You brought up unstated disasters during the Heresy, and I think the Iron Hands are a perfect candidate for this.

 

Personally, I suspect the Ultramarines and the Dark Angels were the main source of the Second Founding Chapters. Out of all of those, I think the Ultramarines founded the most Successors by far. As in, easily two or hundred or more. Beyond that, I think the Blood Angels, White Scars, and Imperial Fists totalled up to another hundred or so more. Add another sixty by the Dark Angels, and leave the balance to the Iron Hands.

 

Of course, after the Second Founding, the Imperium grew increasingly distrusting toward the Dark Angels... and they probably never ordered more than a single Chapter from their Geneseed, per Founding. As such, the other "mainstream" Legions saw their number of Chapters increase exponentially with each new Founding.

 

At this point, I doubt there are more than 100 Chapters with the Geneseed of Lion El'Jonson in existence out of the 1,000 total Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes. This, despite the fact that other Legions probably have only seen a handful of Successors over the past ten millennia (like the Raven Guard or the Salamander)... or none at all (like the Space Wolves).

[Reinen]

I'm not sure I understand you here. You seem to be saying that the Lion should have his "trouble-makers".

 

Dammned language barrier...

I wanted to tell: Lion too softly punished instigators.

 

If you're the Lion and Luther was your best friend, your battle-brother... almost an adoptive father... would you be so quick to kill him?

 

I? No.

 

Remember, the Lion also had to have known that Luther ALMOST let him die, but then risked his life to save the Inexorable Reason. In addition, Luther was the second greatest hero of the Legion. If the Lion made it known what Luther had done, it would have been a tremendous blow to morale.

 

All this is true. But I spoke about another -- аbout the reasons of irrational act of the Lion.

You say 'that it is emotions'. I assumed 'that any while an unknown intrigue in a plot'. You are sure, what there is a basic difference?

 

Astelan at best could be accused of failing a mission. That's no grounds to execute anyone.

 

I spoke not about "Call of Lion", and about other episode. Astеlan broke the personal Lion's order practically in his presense. He told about it in "Angels of Darkness". It had conditionally good purposes, but it strongly broke discipline.

Nemiel was killed for smaller offense. Lion wasn't very rigid avenger, except separate episodes.

 

In general, on what we argue?

[Reinen]

Look at them yourself, man.

 

Already looked. The same ugly obstinate face. :)

 

The two Codices describe the battle almost identically.

 

Not absolutely.

 

Lion won the duel, Luther won the fight ;)

 

It is well told. :lol:))

 

Brothers, I leave to sleep, while me yet didn't accuse of heresy and instigation. :P

If discussion didn't bother, tomorrow we will continue.

[Phoebus]

If you're the Lion and Luther was your best friend, your battle-brother... almost an adoptive father... would you be so quick to kill him?

 

I? No.

Exactly. So why would the Lion? ;)

 

All this is true. But I spoke about another -- аbout the reasons of irrational act of the Lion.

You say 'that it is emotions'. I assumed 'that any while an unknown intrigue in a plot'. You are sure, what there is a basic difference?

I'm sorry, I think we have a language barrier here. :(

 

I spoke not about "Call of Lion", and about other episode. Astеlan broke the personal Lion's order practically in his presense. He told about it in "Angels of Darkness". It had conditionally good purposes, but it strongly broke discipline.

Right, I'm sorry - now I remember. Personally... I take "Angels of Darkness" with a grain of salt. He is exiled for a different reason in "Call of the Lion". Both stories are written by Gav Thorpe. Why are they so different? Different world names, different Chapter "shadowing" Astelan, different Chapter Master replacing him, etc. I think Astelan is being dishonest there. Either that, or it's a sign of him being insane/corrupted by Chaos. After all, insane people often manufacture the memories that best suit their psychosis.

 

Nemiel was killed for smaller offense. Lion wasn't very rigid avenger, except separate episodes.

Aye, but remember that the situations might have been very different. For instance, Astelan might have disobeyed the Lion in a situation that wasn't life and death. By contrast, Nemiel disobeyed him during a time of rebellion and while they were fighting a foe that could not be defeated by conventional means. And Nemiel was advocating that they not use the only means that COULD defeat their foe.

 

In general, on what we argue?

Mostly, just the character of the Lion and how the battle of Caliban played out. ;)

[Reinen]

If you're the Lion and Luther was your best friend, your battle-brother... almost an adoptive father... would you be so quick to kill him?

 

I? No.

Exactly. So why would the Lion? ;)

 

Because I am a human. Lion - primarch. He shouldn't have human weaknesses.

 

I'm sorry, I think we have a language barrier here. :(

 

Really, man? I understand you practically always. And after all I also write and I read in nonnative language, besides quickly and in dispute with different people.

 

Right, I'm sorry - now I remember. Personally... I take "Angels of Darkness" with a grain of salt. He is exiled for a different reason in "Call of the Lion".

 

In "Call of the Lion"it is not written that Astelan was banished because quarrel with Belat. The conflict between masters and no more. There are no contradictions.

 

I think Astelan is being dishonest there.

Either that, or it's a sign of him being insane/corrupted by Chaos.

 

Аt what here Сhaos? Astelan is absolutely the fool to admit crimes which didn't make?

 

for example:

Lion? Oh, I will to kill Lion!

Luther? No! I organized mutiny!

what for?

on a trick! Oh, I joked! I'm sorry!

 

With such things don't joke.

 

After all, insane people often manufacture the memories that best suit their psychosis.

 

A third of a legion ran into psychosis? Gene seed of the Lion the weak? ;)

Astelan on Tarsis destroyed 3/4 population, it is an established fact.

Yes, he is rebel, but not joker.

 

Good-bye.

[elphilo]

If you're the Lion and Luther was your best friend, your battle-brother... almost an adoptive father... would you be so quick to kill him?

 

I? No.

Exactly. So why would the Lion? :)

 

Because I am a human. Lion - primarch. He shouldn't have human weakness.

Really? Because all the other primarchs show emotion. Why would ours be different?