The Fallen: How many?

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

If you're the Lion and Luther was your best friend, your battle-brother... almost an adoptive father... would you be so quick to kill him?

 

I? No.

Exactly. So why would the Lion? :)

 

Because I am a human. Lion - primarch. He shouldn't have human weaknesses.

 

Its becoming clear that the Primarchs do share the human emotions in some degree, and remember the Lion feels Loyalty and duty very powerfully. It is what drives him in his war, his service to the Emperor. He must have still felt some loyalty to Luther who, after all, raised him, taught him swordsmanship, language, etiquette etc. AND also saved his life despite attempting to kill him. Remember, he does his Knigtly duty (reference: 'Savage Weapons', Age of Darkness) in battle, and thus sparing Luther, feeling loyal is part of this, it is what makes him who and what he is, the Knight-Lord of Caliban. Without it he is just a paranoid killer. Kinda like Curze. He is a Knight, a Dark Arthurian Knight, sure, but he still holds to a code of Honour.

[Reinen]

Its becoming clear that the Primarchs do share the human emotions in some degree, and remember the Lion feels Loyalty and duty very powerfully. It is what drives him in his war, his service to the Emperor. He must have still felt some loyalty to Luther who, after all, raised him, taught him swordsmanship, language, etiquette etc. AND also saved his life despite attempting to kill him. Remember, he does his Knigtly duty (reference: 'Savage Weapons', Age of Darkness) in battle, and thus sparing Luther, feeling loyal is part of this, it is what makes him who and what he is, the Knight-Lord of Caliban. Without it he is just a paranoid killer. Kinda like Curze. He is a Knight, a Dark Arthurian Knight, sure, but he still holds to a code of Honour.

 

I don't deny that Lion is the worthy character. I feel disappointment that he was killed by the friend-enemy. He is unique primarch, killed by his legion. It's not fair play. :)

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

Its becoming clear that the Primarchs do share the human emotions in some degree, and remember the Lion feels Loyalty and duty very powerfully. It is what drives him in his war, his service to the Emperor. He must have still felt some loyalty to Luther who, after all, raised him, taught him swordsmanship, language, etiquette etc. AND also saved his life despite attempting to kill him. Remember, he does his Knigtly duty (reference: 'Savage Weapons', Age of Darkness) in battle, and thus sparing Luther, feeling loyal is part of this, it is what makes him who and what he is, the Knight-Lord of Caliban. Without it he is just a paranoid killer. Kinda like Curze. He is a Knight, a Dark Arthurian Knight, sure, but he still holds to a code of Honour.

 

I don't deny that Lion is the worthy character. I feel disappointment that he was killed by the friend-enemy. He is unique primarch, killed by his legion. It's not fair play. :P

 

hes not dead! :)

 

They have never retconned the old background, and our oracle claims he is nearby! Until they say 'Lion is dead' then he is alive, just missing

[Reinen]

Really?

 

Human, really... :)

 

 

Because all the other primarchs show emotion. Why would ours be different?

 

Emotions of the Lion are described as difficult and inconsistent. Good literary work. Someone denies it?

[Phoebus]

Because I am a human. Lion - primarch. He shouldn't have human weaknesses.

Shouldn't and does are two different things. Virtually every Primarch has been shown to have human weaknesses: hubris, distrust, familial love, stubborness, etc.

 

Really, man? I understand you practically always. And after all I also write and I read in nonnative language, besides quickly and in dispute with different people.

I appreciate that you communicate much better in English than I would in your language (unless it's Greek ;) ), but I really didn't understand what you were trying to say there. Again, I'm sorry! :(

 

In "Call of the Lion"it is not written that Astelan was banished because quarrel with Belat. The conflict between masters and no more. There are no contradictions.

That's what I thought the ending was implying.

 

Аt what here Сhaos? Astelan is absolutely the fool to admit crimes which didn't make?

I'm going to try to find a specific quote Gav Thorpe made, regarding Astelan's state of mind following ten thousand years in the Warp. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm right. :)

 

A third of a legion ran into psychosis? Gene seed of the Lion the weak? :)

I didn't say they all went insane; I said Astellan perhaps did, or that he was corrupted. Again, I'll try to find the quote.

 

Emotions of the Lion are described as difficult and inconsistent. Good literary work. Someone denies it?

Quite the opposite. I, myself, am pointing out that it's because of these inconsistent emotional states and reactions that the Lion is able to rationally exile Luther on one day and execute Nemiel on another. ;)

[Augustus]

I think the Dark Angels would have been fools not to recruit during the Heresy. Especially since the Lion is somewhat aware or apprehensive about the state of Caliban.

 

Also, Astelan mentioned a civil war on Caliban. According to him some of the younger marines had rebelled. I think his mind is warped, however, and that goals of the 2 factions could be completely different. Nevertheless, I do believe that there would have been a civil war on the planet PRIOR to the Lion arriving. That would deplete the numbers further.

 

We also don't know what happens when the Dark Angels arrive. What if many of the leaders here a speech from Luther and change sides? (I would pop a fuse if this happens)

 

As the first Legion I would say it makes sense for the Dark Angels to be top 5 in size.

[elphilo]

Really?

 

Human, really... :rolleyes:

 

 

Because all the other primarchs show emotion. Why would ours be different?

 

Emotions of the Lion are described as difficult and inconsistent. Good literary work. Someone denies it?

 

I guess im not understanding what you're trying to convey because no where in my statement am I trying to deny anything.

 

Im simply asking why would our primarch be any different to the other primarchs? Why would they all show some type of emotion. Hell look at Lorgar, he displays so many different emotion, why would The Lion be different?

 

I have read the 3 horus heresy stories written about our legion. And the lion displays mostly paranoia, rage and loyalty to his legion and The Emperor. I have no doubt in my mind that he would spare Luther's life out of past loyalties.

[Reinen]

I guess im not understanding what you're trying to convey because no where in my statement am I trying to deny anything.

Im simply asking why would our primarch be any different to the other primarchs? Why would they all show some type of emotion.

 

I will try to explain. :P

There is a difference between the real person and the mythological hero. Emotions of the hero are strongly simplified. Books of BL-authors and codes are written from the different points of view and in various styles. Some texts look as mythology, others are more similar to descriptions of real people in literature. If Lion is only the mythological hero, his emotions can't be compared to my emotions or your emotions.

If the Lion is the character more or less realistic stories, it quite another matter.

When in reality the commander loses fight because has many emotions , he... heh... this is military failure, politely speaking.

Because of my respect to primarch, I will be better to think that Lion had special unknown to me motives.

 

It is possible to refuse a realistic approach to plots and to consider the Lion by a mythological figure. But then to compare his emotions to mine it is analytically incorrect.

It concerns all primarchs.

 

I have read the 3 horus heresy stories written about our legion. And the lion displays mostly paranoia, rage and loyalty to his legion and The Emperor. I have no doubt in my mind that he would spare Luther's life out of past loyalties.

 

'paranoia, rage and loyalty'

It is called 'difficult character'. It's not mythological style.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

The purpose of the Horus Heresy is to remove myth, to illuminate the past, so to speak.

 

And, please, even the best generals lose it sometimes. The Lion was top notch, but even he was susceptible to rage.

[Reinen]

Also, Astelan mentioned a civil war on Caliban. According to him some of the younger marines had rebelled. I think his mind is warped,

 

I consider that here not 'mind warped', but 'nobody wishes to recognize himself wrong'. At any civil conflict all always say that the opposite side is guilty, and they are pure as pigeons. :P

I believe, we here see not mental patalogy, but usual obstinacy and passionate character.

 

I do believe that there would have been a civil war on the planet PRIOR to the Lion arriving.

 

Agree.

[Reinen]

The purpose of the Horus Heresy is to remove myth, to illuminate the past, so to speak.

 

Agree.

It would be desirable, that removal of mythology complicated plots, instead of simplified them.

[Captain Semper]

All excellent points guys, I really like where this thread is going (even psychoanalysing the Lion! :P).

 

That's why I assume they were down to 75% combat strength before getting to Caliban. Remember, it took a decisive defeat the likes of which we never heard the Dark Angels suffering for the Night Lords to lose a quarter of their combat strength. So, without such a defeat, I think the Dark Angels would not necessarily have lost any great number of warriors in any one engagement.

Oh, it very much could be, I'm just hedging my bets that there could be some disastrous defeats on both the Loyalist and the Traitor side that we haven't heard about yet, that's why I'm not willing to go more concrete on my assessment of their fighting strength by the time they get back to Caliban. For all we know, the BL HH series will show that all the legions lost 50% of their men at the Siege of Terra or the aftermath/retreat after Horus' death. I doubt everything fell to 100% pieces for the Traitor legions immediately, so I think it's plausible that the DA could have run headlong into one, etc, who really knows. That's why I'm willing to say that the Dark Angels returning to Caliban could have been anywhere from 40-85% of their total fighting strength when they returned.

 

This is actually a valid point. It is usually mentioned that the Lion was dismayed to find that while he was fighting in the Heresy, a part of his Legion turned from the Emperor. When they say he was fighting do they mean the Thramas Crusade (that took little toll on the Legion's fighting strength) or the (what we are led to beleive) mop up operations after the Siege of the Emperor's Palace ended... Because frankly if that's all the DAs did during the Heresy, they would probably be in top form at the end of it. But if there was another event, an "Iron Cage" equivalent for DAs then the Legion would have suffered serious losses and will alos give the Lion the moral high ground to be dismayed by Luther's boys treason while he was bleeding for the Emperor. Because frankly, with what we know so far, he didn't bleed much. Which if true, is not very heroic in the 30k context but really usefull in the 40k because all these DAs will have a large number of Chapters out there - maybe only second to the UMs Successors - and we know the latter hardly operate as one. ;)

 

What I'm not willing to say is that the Black Library authors haven't thought through the numbers in the remaining Legions on how to deplete them down toward 40K levels before the end of the Heresy series. I think assuming that there were 50-60K Dark Angels running around that could divide to become 50-60 chapters sounds like too much to me and strains the setting's credibility in my mind.

 

Why so? 40k Universe is now a bigger place and in fact more credible than in the early days... Saying that 50,000 marines conquered the Galaxy is really thin even for post human warriors... Saying that the number was around a 1,000,000 is way more credible... Also us having a large amount of primogenitors solves another probelm: how does one Chapter join the ranks of the Unforgiven? It must be a difficult process. Assuming that the High Lords order the creation of a chapter from the DA gene-seed (something that according to fluff does not happen often) how does the Inner Circle gets hold of it? Does the DA Chapter have to provide the officers? This is an unexplored area and it can remain that way if the DA successors are mostly 2nd Founding. That way you get i) 50-60 Chapters already part of the Unforgiven with the Inner Circle holding authority over them (because they were not created by the High Lords, they stem form the original Legion) and ii) You can really play-up the "secret Legion" theme, something that's close to my heart, without needing to bend the 40k lore. The Primogenitors alone could do it! :) Now add to that some later Foundings Chapters (DoCs, Consecrators, GotC) that the Inner Circle managed to penetrate (or in the case of DoCs create) you really have a Legion sized force - even if this is a small Legion by Heresy-era standards.

 

As far as Luther, I think that what you said, Phoebus, played into it, but the Lion knows he's been betrayed and it's by his foster father, and I don't think he really knows how to feel about that. The exile to me was a compromise between his strategic concepting, his devotion to his "father", and his rage at the betrayal. I think it also shows the Lion's emotional side that while it isn't natural for him, he does seem to keep trying to trust others (for good or ill), and seems even more let down because of this. It almost becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy for him.

 

Interesting take... It certainly explains why he trusted Perturabo for no reason... However the "true" behavior for the Lion as far as I'm concerned comes out in the "Lion" novella where he treats all parties involved as potentially treacherous because he doesn't know where their loyalties lie nor whether the leutenants are even true to their Primarchs. This makes sense, the paranoia in a civil war reigns supreme - more so if you're a distrustful peron to begin with. Trusting Perturabo when he knew that Horus, Angron and Fulgrim (or was it Mortarion?) had rebelled in the beginning of Fallen Angels is something so completely out of Character that ruined an otherwise fine representation of the Lion and a generally OK book. It's the case that the ending instead of giving a twist it just ruins the book... I think Gav portrays the DAs far better than anybody else who have wrote a book about them - and no Savage Weapons and The Lord of Crows do not count - the first was not a book but a short story (not ot mention the Lion gets beat up) and the second was not about the DAs but the NLs (with an excellent description of the Lion in the prologue - the best yet!).

 

Nevertheless, I do believe that there would have been a civil war on the planet PRIOR to the Lion arriving. That would deplete the numbers further.

 

This is interesting. What did Astelan mean by "civil war"? I remember that Israfael (sp?) opposed Luther and he was neutralised but not killed.. Maybe he somehow managed to make a comeback with some Marines loyal to him (and the Lion/Emperor) and tried to stop Luther. Although he failed, this could register as "civil war" to Astelan's eyes and have an impact on the Fallen numbers... Or he could be referring to the violent suppression of the strikes and the unrest by the DAs (later to become Fallen).

 

 

As the first Legion I would say it makes sense for the Dark Angels to be top 5 in size.

 

Yeap! The largest are UMs obviously, then the Word Bearers... I'd say the DAs could be 3rd possibly similarly sized to Sons of Horus?

[Augustus]

If I remember correctly Cap'n Semper:

 

Astelan claims that when they found out about the Horus Heresey him and some of the older marines wanted to go to Terra and fight. He then claims the younger marines prevented him from doing so as their orders from the Lion were to protect especially if the Heresey was true.

 

Astelan's side fought and beat the younger marines. When they were about to leave the "rebels" attacked and destroyed a HUGE ship and it crashed in the surface polluting the planet and making any attempt to reach Terra moot.

 

Astelan later claims that these rebels probably reached the Lion and told them their version of what went down on the planet. It is his thinking that the Lion wouldn't believe him or forgive him for the damage to the planet that had him fire on the returning fleet.

 

----

 

I REALLY hope the GW pushes this secret legion theme with the Dark Angels. Cause it totally works. Good work CS

[Hrvat]

Though there is a considerable question would there even be Fallen if Astelan had not fiered on the fleet.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

Though there is a considerable question would there even be Fallen if Astelan had not fiered on the fleet.

 

This is a good point. Though there always would have been a battle, in my opinion, as Luther was too far gone. However, it would have played out very differently. It would be interesting to see how Jonson dealt with the separation of Caliban from the Imperium in a more...dare I say it? peaceful setting.

[Reinen]

Shouldn't and does are two different things. Virtually every Primarch has been shown to have human weaknesses: hubris, distrust, familial love, stubborness, etc.

 

I wrote about mythology in the previous message. There is an answer.

 

I appreciate that you communicate much better in English than I would in your language (unless it's Greek ;) ), but I really didn't understand what you were trying to say there. Again, I'm sorry! ;)

 

Probably, the problem consists not in a language barrier, but in a different approach to the analysis of books.

Suit you my explanations ?

 

That's what I thought the ending was implying.

 

Astelan and Belat together ruined operation. Belat besides appeared as the tale-bearer. I don't think that Lion is very trustful. Quarrel with Belat could become the Lion's inspection reason, about it also told Astelan in AoD. Check showed that the chapter master is really disobedient, he was banished. What here contradictions? If the book isn't pleasant to you, it doesn't mean that in it told lies or it doesn't exist. It is necessary to respect other readers.

In my opinion, this book one of the best books of BL, there is a psychology, the conflict and a choice, instead of simply boring fight.

 

 

I'm going to try to find a specific quote Gav Thorpe made, regarding Astelan's state of mind following ten thousand years in the Warp. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm right. :lol:

 

"Can you believe the word of a traitor? For that matter, is Astelan really a traitor, or the true follower of the Emperor's vision? Do Boreas's actions and his eventual doubts, perhaps conversion even, lend credence to Astelan's arguments? Alternatively, does the fact that Boreas's own experiences of abandonment weaken his resolve and create an unwitting sympathy with Astelan? I could go on, to talk about the Old Legion versus New Legion conflict, or the catalytic role played by the shadowy gene-seed thief (who is the enigmatic Cypher, for those who haven't guessed), but there isn't space. I'm never going to say one way or the other, because it has always been my intent that readers get to decide and debate these issues for themselves"(с) Gav Thorpe

 

You have full authority negatively to estimate acts of the character, but the book plot from it won't disappear.

 

I didn't say they all went insane; I said Astellan perhaps did, or that he was corrupted. Again, I'll try to find the quote.

 

Оne mad fallen deceived two Caplains, including the great master Sapphon? :D

 

Quite the opposite. I, myself, am pointing out that it's because of these inconsistent emotional states and reactions that the Lion is able to rationally exile Luther on one day and execute Nemiel on another. ;)

 

I already wrote about mythology in the previous message.

It would be reasonable ending this senseless dispute. I am tired. I am not the fan of burning, purging and destruction by name of Imperium or Chaos. I am the fan of good books with not primitive plot.

[Reinen]

Though there is a considerable question would there even be Fallen if Astelan had not fiered on the fleet.

 

Very interesting question. I think, Luther manipulated Astelan. Не put idea about firing. Anyway, war all the same would begin. But if firing really didn't begin, Lion would land on Caliban. Possibly, someone would punish, but Caliban wouldn't collapse. IMHO.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

I didn't say they all went insane; I said Astellan perhaps did, or that he was corrupted. Again, I'll try to find the quote.

 

Оne mad fallen deceived two Caplains, including the great master Sapphon? :)

 

What I think Pheobus is meaning here, is that Astelan felt guilt over his actions and so created an alternate history he believes in, though even within the history is inconsistent. He tries to justify his actions and ends up contradicting himself. So, I think the only person deceived here is himself rather than Boreas or Sapphon.

 

This has always been my interpretation of Astelan's claims about the Lion from the start of the debate. Paranoia does exist, its in his genes after all ;) and he increases it with the sense of guilt and failure. For all his faults, Astelan seems to have supported the Emperor and hated el'Jonson (personally, I think it was because he was bitter over not being able to lead the Legion any more and then his quarrel and resentment with el'Jonson led him to interpret the actions of Belat as 'following' and 'shadowing' in order to spy on him)

 

It has been made quite clear that the Lion remained loyal to the Emperor (maybe not Imperium, but def Emperor)

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

Though there is a considerable question would there even be Fallen if Astelan had not fiered on the fleet.

 

Very interesting question. I think, Luther manipulated Astelan. Не put idea about firing. Anyway, war all the same would begin. But if firing really didn't begin, Lion would land on Caliban. Possibly, someone would punish, but Caliban wouldn't collapse. IMHO.

 

Ive always thought Chaos was the final factor in destorying the planet. Considering there is a Chaos Greater Daemon of Nurgle at the heart of the planet....could be the reason for the destruction.

 

In fact...this might be why Nurgle was pleased Tchulcha was taken by Lion, because he sees this as the way to release his favored Daemon...he knows about the Fall, maybe the traitor Marines, or Luther, turn to Nurgle (pretty sure one god could infuse enough power to equal a Primarch, Lion is not the Emp after all, and if necessary one other could help Nurgle)? This could explain Tzenteech's attempt to turn Lion during 'The Lion' as part of a wider scheme between the two gods..

 

So the fact that tchulcha was rescued and Nurgle is happy, is not because he sees it as a way to corrupt Lion, but as a way to release said Daemon.

 

Or maybe my brain is just over thinking these things through :)

[Interrogator Stobz]

I'm just reading Dark Vengeance, while it seems a bit 'generic' about 38.73% into it (gotta love epubs) the RW Sgt mentions he has been told that nearly HALF the legion was left on Caliban and fell. That is a fairly new confirmation of our worst fears, it could of course just be in the telling. Also of note was that all RW were aware of our dark past, not just DW members.

 

Food for thought while my paint dries....toodleooo

[Captain Semper]

If I remember correctly Cap'n Semper:

 

Astelan claims that when they found out about the Horus Heresey him and some of the older marines wanted to go to Terra and fight. He then claims the younger marines prevented him from doing so as their orders from the Lion were to protect especially if the Heresey was true.

 

Astelan's side fought and beat the younger marines. When they were about to leave the "rebels" attacked and destroyed a HUGE ship and it crashed in the surface polluting the planet and making any attempt to reach Terra moot.

 

Astelan later claims that these rebels probably reached the Lion and told them their version of what went down on the planet. It is his thinking that the Lion wouldn't believe him or forgive him for the damage to the planet that had him fire on the returning fleet.

 

----

 

I REALLY hope the GW pushes this secret legion theme with the Dark Angels. Cause it totally works. Good work CS

 

Thanks for reminding me Augustus! I need to refresh my memory - AoD is among my favorite BL books, I certainly think reading it twice is not enough... ;)

 

The best thing about Astelan is half-truths. You don't know what it true and what's a lie - hence the "choosing sides" statement, had a lasting impact on the community - and to some extent still has. He claims to want to go fight for the Emperor but is stopped by some "rebel" DAs. Do we know he was to fight on the loyalist side? Maybe the "rebel" DAs were infact trying to prevent the Lutherian DAs to join the Traitor forces... Who's to say what's what! :) hahahaha!!!!

 

Now this episode you're mentioning is top on my list on intersting subjects for BL to explore... What happened there? We're left in a situation where Luther assumes total control on Caliban supported by virtually all the characters that are on the planet (Israfel being a notable exception). So what happens? Who led the "rebellion" against Luther's forces? Why? How are the Lutheran DAs get informed on the Heresy? Grey Angel is a close call - but there is a sequel so maybe there is the continuation of the story there. And we have Gav's trilogy to look fwd to - more Fallen stuff will be undoubtedly revealed... Excitment hits the roof! :)

 

I'm just reading Dark Vengeance, while it seems a bit 'generic' about 38.73% into it (gotta love epubs) the RW Sgt mentions he has been told that nearly HALF the legion was left on Caliban and fell. That is a fairly new confirmation of our worst fears, it could of course just be in the telling. Also of note was that all RW were aware of our dark past, not just DW members.

 

Food for thought while my paint dries....toodleooo

 

Well, I think this is an in-Universe take. It's what he was told - not necessarily the accurate truth. Also there are other inaccuracies in DV. It says that the RW Sergeant was informed of the Fallen upon his induction to the RW. One can assume he was also DW because of that... Then he says he told his other two squad members upon their induction to the RW, and the text seems to imply that RW is "in the know" as a matter of course. So yeah this book has some good things going for it but mostly in relation to portaying the Chaos Marines psyche and diifferent takes rather than the DAs. Come to think of it, what did Banthazar do in the entire book? Nothing much really.

[Reinen]

What I think Pheobus is meaning here, is that Astelan felt guilt over his actions and so created an alternate history he believes in, though even within the history is inconsistent. He tries to justify his actions and ends up contradicting himself.

 

Alternatives happen different. To justify, it is not necessary to invent nonexistent fight on Altis. Fight really took place. Astelan there battled and finally quarreled with the primarсh.

It acquitted himself and told that Lion was wrong. Primarch, possibly thought that Astlyan is the stubborn fool.

Why to invent superfluous essence? Okkam's razor.

 

So, I think the only person deceived here is himself rather than Boreas or Sapphon.

 

'You were not wrong'© Boreas

'Knowledge is power, guard it well'© Sapphon.

They see that deal with the irreconcilable opponent, at least while he won't change the opinion. Nevertheless, he knows something that can be useful. Usual pragmatical approach.

 

This has always been my interpretation of Astelan's claims about the Lion from the start of the debate. Paranoia does exist, its in his genes after all :) and he increases it with the sense of guilt and failure. For all his faults, Astelan seems to have supported the Emperor and hated el'Jonson (personally, I think it was because he was bitter over not being able to lead the Legion any more and then his quarrel and resentment with el'Jonson led him to interpret the actions of Belat as 'following' and 'shadowing' in order to spy on him)

It has been made quite clear that the Lion remained loyal to the Emperor (maybe not Imperium, but def Emperor)

 

Our interpretations practically coincide.

[Hrvat]

Though there is a considerable question would there even be Fallen if Astelan had not fiered on the fleet.

 

This is a good point. Though there always would have been a battle, in my opinion, as Luther was too far gone. However, it would have played out very differently. It would be interesting to see how Jonson dealt with the separation of Caliban from the Imperium in a more...dare I say it? peaceful setting.

 

Was Luther to far gone? Sure he used warp magic but as it stands we can't be sure would he actually fight Jonson if Jonson didn't attack after Astelan fiered at him because he and other older marines were stopped from joining the fight against Horus by some younger marines who's alligence or agenda we don't know except they were blindly following the order of the primarch to stay put.

 

The more I read about the fall the more it looks to me as a set of accidental circumstances fed upon by paranoina and jelousy rather than some grand corupting scheme that is told in the Codex.

[Reinen]

Ive always thought Chaos was the final factor in destorying the planet. Considering there is a Chaos Greater Daemon of Nurgle at the heart of the planet....could be the reason for the destruction.

In fact...this might be why Nurgle was pleased Tchulcha was taken by Lion, because he sees this as the way to release his favored Daemon...he knows about the Fall, maybe the traitor Marines, or Luther, turn to Nurgle (pretty sure one god could infuse enough power to equal a Primarch, Lion is not the Emp after all, and if necessary one other could help Nurgle)? This could explain Tzenteech's attempt to turn Lion during 'The Lion' as part of a wider scheme between the two gods..

So the fact that tchulcha was rescued and Nurgle is happy, is not because he sees it as a way to corrupt Lion, but as a way to release said Daemon.

Or maybe my brain is just over thinking these things through :)

 

Chaos couldn't corrupt Lion in the usual way. Primarch wasn't ambitious.

But the Chaos could ruin the Lion, he create such circumstances at which Lion will be lost. Powers of Chaos released the demon, probably.

At the same time they split the first legion and got rid of the Lion.

 

'Good work' ;(

 

Persons involved in mutiny on Caliban hardly understood that occurs. I don't think that the chaos purposely rescued them. Everywhere and always it spat on the used material, especially, on the 'semi-loyal' fallen.

 

It would be interesting to see how Jonson dealt with the separation of Caliban

 

and with an ecological disaster...

and with the demon...

and with consequences of fratricide...

 

It is possible to tear off the rebellious heads, but a this way not to solve a difficulty.

 

The more I read about the fall the more it looks to me as a set of accidental circumstances fed upon by paranoina and jelousy rather than some grand corupting scheme that is told in the Codex.

 

Fallen on Caliban weren't the real chaos space marines, some became them later. Ambitions, paranoina and Luther's charisma became the reason of mutiny. Luther was chaosit, it is the truth.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Snip

 

I'm just reading Dark Vengeance, while it seems a bit 'generic' about 38.73% into it (gotta love epubs) the RW Sgt mentions he has been told that nearly HALF the legion was left on Caliban and fell. That is a fairly new confirmation of our worst fears, it could of course just be in the telling. Also of note was that all RW were aware of our dark past, not just DW members.

 

Food for thought while my paint dries....toodleooo

 

Well, I think this is an in-Universe take. It's what he was told - not necessarily the accurate truth. Also there are other inaccuracies in DV. It says that the RW Sergeant was informed of the Fallen upon his induction to the RW. One can assume he was also DW because of that... Then he says he told his other two squad members upon their induction to the RW, and the text seems to imply that RW is "in the know" as a matter of course. So yeah this book has some good things going for it but mostly in relation to portaying the Chaos Marines psyche and diifferent takes rather than the DAs. Come to think of it, what did Banthazar do in the entire book? Nothing much really.

 

That is the simple explanation that came to me too. But the reason I asked is because I'm a bit conerned that although it is a bit of a beginners guide to the DA book, it could actually be the road GW will go down in our new dex. Oh well, we'll get what we're given :)