The Fallen: How many?

[Captain Semper]

Snip

 

I'm just reading Dark Vengeance, while it seems a bit 'generic' about 38.73% into it (gotta love epubs) the RW Sgt mentions he has been told that nearly HALF the legion was left on Caliban and fell. That is a fairly new confirmation of our worst fears, it could of course just be in the telling. Also of note was that all RW were aware of our dark past, not just DW members.

 

Food for thought while my paint dries....toodleooo

 

Well, I think this is an in-Universe take. It's what he was told - not necessarily the accurate truth. Also there are other inaccuracies in DV. It says that the RW Sergeant was informed of the Fallen upon his induction to the RW. One can assume he was also DW because of that... Then he says he told his other two squad members upon their induction to the RW, and the text seems to imply that RW is "in the know" as a matter of course. So yeah this book has some good things going for it but mostly in relation to portaying the Chaos Marines psyche and diifferent takes rather than the DAs. Come to think of it, what did Banthazar do in the entire book? Nothing much really.

 

That is the simple explanation that came to me too. But the reason I asked is because I'm a bit conerned that although it is a bit of a beginners guide to the DA book, it could actually be the road GW will go down in our new dex. Oh well, we'll get what we're given ;)

 

Keep the colors flying Stobz, we'll get a good one in the end - you'll see... :)

[Nistro]

from all my years playing and reading the "old fluff" i kinda stopped playing at the start of 5th ed so not sure what GW added, the RW have always known about the fallen as along with the DW they are tasked with tracking them down and "scouting" the fallen out i alwys put that down to the fact that is why both the DW and RW do not follow the usual company organisation charts, bus as i said its been many years for me im still getting back into it all and with 2 kids reading all the fluff aint easy.

 

but for this thread in one of the DA HH books it states that the DA legion had increased troop training to the point where they where producing troops faster than any other legion i think will have to go back and look but if im right u can bet your arse caliban was full to bursting with troops all loyal to Luther and troops who believe they had been left behind by the lion

[Reinen]

The best thing about Astelan is half-truths. You don't know what it true and what's a lie - hence the "choosing sides" statement, had a lasting impact on the community - and to some extent still has. He claims to want to go fight for the Emperor but is stopped by some "rebel" DAs. Do we know he was to fight on the loyalist side? Maybe the "rebel" DAs were infact trying to prevent the Lutherian DAs to join the Traitor forces... Who's to say what's what! laugh.gif hahahaha!!!!

 

Therefore this book is one of the best.

It is interesting to read, how the character accused of mutiny and treason, agitates sincerely for ideas of Imperium. Madness? No, Dark Angels! :D

[Ordo Machinum]

Couple of things:

1) I was not participating in the conjecture on the Fallen, merely trying to get everyone onto the same page so that the discussion might be fruitful. If everyone isn't starting from the same place, then it's hard to get anywhere, even with the same directions.

2) The Horus Heresy doesn't seem to be being written with any kind of "garbling" involved, IMO. For once, we seem to be getting the straight up story. Make of that what you will, but I'd there is an insistence of "garbling" and there is no agreement on the "garbled" portions, then you also can't have fruitful discussion.

 

Now, Archangel, specifically where did you get the "only 1/3rd of the Fallen survived the battle at Caliban" value from? Also, I doubt seriously that the Dark Angels ever numbered in the 250K Marines range.

I was simply going to the other extreme from Gav's 25,000 estimate to when you mentioned the BA being around 150,000+. The 1/3rd Fallen survival was just a benefit of the doubt concerning previous discussions regarding how many Fallen could have survived, how many were actually left behind on Caliban, etc. Most discussions previously infer the DA had more survivors. These amounts were simply conjectural.

 

I actually don't have a problem with a Fallen army in the "end times" of the game, but they wouldn't really fit, IMO, at say M37.982. That's just one reason I'd like to see the time line for the game system edge forward just a little bit.

YMMV. In a universe where a living corpse is sustained by thousands of psykers sacrificed to it and where fluff is rewritten and reinterpreted time and time again, there is room for just about anyone's philosophy.

 

It would and wouldn't be nice. GW's not going to be rebranding the game to 41K. Maybe a fluffy reason for the clock stopping prior to it is some backrush of warp/imperial conflict - maybe a result of the Final Battle of Mankind - that in-game cannot be seen. It's reverberating echoes ripple through the preceding millennia causing fluff changes, new events with subtle differences, whatever that the universe is constantly having a seizure as it is in its final death throes. Kind of similar to the "life flashes before you eyes" at the moment of death sort of thing.

[Mortemer]

I just think that as the Lion is paranoid (though loyal) this paranoia has "infected" his legion too. I don't think that there is a significant chaos corruption. Most probably it's what the loyal DA said afterwards in order to explain what happened in Calliban with their Fallen brothers.

Surely afterwards some Fallen might be corrupted by chaos I think that most still cling to the same paranoia that caused the civil war back in Caliban. Unfortunately neither the Fallen, nor the Loyal/Unforgiven can understand how they are afflicted. This affliction though shows the nature that their primarch "gifted" to his legion.

 

In general I would say that this civil war was just a big/bad misunderstanding of everyone about evryone else's motives/actions.

[Augustus]

We should probably discuss the OP topic ;)...or CL will come in and lay down the law on this thread.

 

Established in print.

 

Dark Angels have chapters at around 1000 marines.

 

Some? of these are placed into Orders with some being over 5,000 marines.

 

in 50 years, luther had 19 training cycles. If we take a low estimate at 3500 marines for each cycle thats 66500 TOTAL caliban marines minus the original knights entering.

 

So if the //assumption// of a 120-150k size legion is believed to be true. At most half to a third would have been Caliban marines.

 

Now...what do with these made up numbers?

 

I think its really impossible to tell as of now how many Fallen there were.

 

Odds are Luther continued to recruit new marines. But if Astelan is to be believed there was a civil war PRIOR to the Lion arriving any number could have been slain.

[Bryan Blaire]

If Lion is only the mythological hero, his emotions can't be compared to my emotions or your emotions.

If the Lion is the character more or less realistic stories, it quite another matter.

When in reality the commander loses fight because has many emotions , he... heh... this is military failure, politely speaking.

Because of my respect to primarch, I will be better to think that Lion had special unknown to me motives.

 

It is possible to refuse a realistic approach to plots and to consider the Lion by a mythological figure. But then to compare his emotions to mine it is analytically incorrect.

It concerns all primarchs.

Um, no. Just plain no.

 

Almost all mythologies have their heroes and gods portrayed with very real and humanly understandable and relatable emotions. They would have almost no value if they did not.

 

If you refuse to look at all the evidence presented in a work as having influence on the characters in the work, then that is an analytical failure. Denial of evidence does not invalidate that evidence. The Lion is a creature of emotion and those emotions get in the way of his reasoning. It causes him to do "bad" things and does ultimately result in his own downfall at the hands of his betrayer.

 

I have read the 3 horus heresy stories written about our legion. And the lion displays mostly paranoia, rage and loyalty to his legion and The Emperor. I have no doubt in my mind that he would spare Luther's life out of past loyalties.

 

'paranoia, rage and loyalty'

It is called 'difficult character'. It's not mythological style.

It's called a well written, multi-dimensional character that all literature should have. The Lion is not just some myth, and even myths have emotive reasons fully displayed in them.

 

You are trying to remove a portion of the fully legitimate analysis of the Lion for no other reason than that you seem to refuse to acknowledge him in that fashion. You have to defend that, no one else has to prove that the Lion acted out of emotion when that's fully evident.

[Ordo Machinum]

We should probably discuss the OP topic ;)...or CL will come in and lay down the law on this thread.

 

Established in print.

 

Very true, may his blessed Crozius never lose its golden weight! :P

 

Has anyone, or can we, made/make a list sources of such references so we can all be on the same page? (page numbers would be nice too)

[Reinen]

We should probably discuss the OP topic ;)...or CL will come in and lay down the law on this thread.

 

I already hear his steps! :P

 

Dark Angels have chapters at around 1000 marines.

 

Some? of these are placed into Orders with some being over 5,000 marines.

 

in 50 years, luther had 19 training cycles. If we take a low estimate at 3500 marines for each cycle thats 66500 TOTAL caliban marines minus the original knights entering.

 

So if the //assumption// of a 120-150k size legion is believed to be true. At most half to a third would have been Caliban marines.

 

Now...what do with these made up numbers?

 

I think its really impossible to tell as of now how many Fallen there were.

 

Odds are Luther continued to recruit new marines. But if Astelan is to be believed there was a civil war PRIOR to the Lion arriving any number could have been slain.

 

It is the convincing version.

 

Has anyone, or can we, made/make a list sources of such references so we can all be on the same page? (page numbers would be nice too)

 

I will look for them too.

 

It's called a well written, multi-dimensional character that all literature should have.

 

Should have, but often has no. One-dimensional characters exists. Otherwise boring books wouldn't exist.

 

You are trying to remove a portion of the fully legitimate analysis of the Lion

We discuss not me.

[Bryan Blaire]

Why so? 40k Universe is now a bigger place and in fact more credible than in the early days... Saying that 50,000 marines conquered the Galaxy is really thin even for post human warriors... Saying that the number was around a 1,000,000 is way more credible... Also us having a large amount of primogenitors solves another probelm: how does one Chapter join the ranks of the Unforgiven? It must be a difficult process. Assuming that the High Lords order the creation of a chapter from the DA gene-seed (something that according to fluff does not happen often) how does the Inner Circle gets hold of it? Does the DA Chapter have to provide the officers? This is an unexplored area and it can remain that way if the DA successors are mostly 2nd Founding. That way you get i) 50-60 Chapters already part of the Unforgiven with the Inner Circle holding authority over them (because they were not created by the High Lords, they stem form the original Legion) and ii) You can really play-up the "secret Legion" theme, something that's close to my heart, without needing to bend the 40k lore. The Primogenitors alone could do it! :P Now add to that some later Foundings Chapters (DoCs, Consecrators, GotC) that the Inner Circle managed to penetrate (or in the case of DoCs create) you really have a Legion sized force - even if this is a small Legion by Heresy-era standards.

I think it's just my natural tendency to recall the "smaller" Legions and feel like the Imperium had to grow a lot of Space Marines again, rather than acknowledge newer things like 400+ Second Foundings. It just "feels" like too many to me. The Heresy and Siege of Terra just have more impact IMO if the loyal Legions went from 900,000 strong down to around 50,000 strong only and those then got split, with the Imperium building more. 50-60 DA Second Foundings just feels wrong to me for some reason, like it's just too much Unforgiven out there.

 

Interesting take... It certainly explains why he trusted Perturabo for no reason... However the "true" behavior for the Lion as far as I'm concerned comes out in the "Lion" novella where he treats all parties involved as potentially treacherous because he doesn't know where their loyalties lie nor whether the leutenants are even true to their Primarchs. This makes sense, the paranoia in a civil war reigns supreme - more so if you're a distrustful peron to begin with. Trusting Perturabo when he knew that Horus, Angron and Fulgrim (or was it Mortarion?) had rebelled in the beginning of Fallen Angels is something so completely out of Character that ruined an otherwise fine representation of the Lion and a generally OK book. It's the case that the ending instead of giving a twist it just ruins the book... I think Gav portrays the DAs far better than anybody else who have wrote a book about them - and no Savage Weapons and The Lord of Crows do not count - the first was not a book but a short story (not ot mention the Lion gets beat up) and the second was not about the DAs but the NLs (with an excellent description of the Lion in the prologue - the best yet!).

It just seems to me that a person that emotionally stunted would find some comfort in "family" and keep wanting to trust them. However, look at what the Lion's had: his own gene-father snubs him over Horus (which is how he seems to see it), his foster father is involved in a plot to blow up his gene father, some of his brothers have betrayed his "family", etc. I think it would have driven him to the "final state" of not really being able to trust anyone, but prior to Perturbo, he could have still been stubbornly clinging to some hope that he'd figure out this trust stuff, so he tried it again. At one point, he basically nominates a more human emotional touchstone, again, in direct reaction to him realizing that he just can't do this. I don't know that the Lion's state is always one of no trust, but rather a non-understanding of emotion, he tries, but just doesn't get it.

 

Ive always thought Chaos was the final factor in destorying the planet. Considering there is a Chaos Greater Daemon of Nurgle at the heart of the planet....could be the reason for the destruction.

 

This could explain Tzenteech's attempt to turn Lion during 'The Lion' as part of a wider scheme between the two gods..

Was it a Nurgle demon for sure? I don't remember if this is stated. For some reason I always have pictured it as a demon of Tzenteech because it's called Ouroborus, and the post-Heresy Thousand Sons symbol is the ouroborus. The ouroborus is also semi-associated with alchemy, which is sometimes considered mystical in nature and feeds into the knowledge/magic concept of Tzenteech as well.

 

To justify, it is not necessary to invent nonexistent fight on Altis. Fight really took place. Astelan there battled and finally quarreled with the primarсh.

That's not what he said. No one believes that Astelan invented the fight. It is believed that he purposefully mentally altered his own interpretation of the results so he didn't have to view his betrayal of the Lion and the Emperor as a betrayal. It's more like he said "I didn't betray them, they betrayed me!" and then he presents his own twisted interpretation of events as fact, when it is his own warped mind that invented this new means of thinking about it in that fashion.

 

All things being equal, Astelan invented an alternate interpretation of events and told himself that his new lie was the truth until he himself believed it. People do this in the real world all the time, so it's a very believable occurrence. It allows him to view the situation without having to accept any blame for himself or his actions.

 

 

I was simply going to the other extreme from Gav's 25,000 estimate to when you mentioned the BA being around 150,000+. The 1/3rd Fallen survival was just a benefit of the doubt concerning previous discussions regarding how many Fallen could have survived, how many were actually left behind on Caliban, etc. Most discussions previously infer the DA had more survivors. These amounts were simply conjectural.

Ah, alrighty. Just wasn't sure if the 1/3rd number was stated in a Codex or book I hadn't seen/acknowledged. I think really we have to establish a starting number before we can discuss how many may have actually survived, but that's just me. The biggest problem with establishing a starting number is that I don't think we really have good facts on just how many of Luther's created Marines were filtered out to the Legion fleets and how many remained behind.

[elphilo]

If Lion is only the mythological hero, his emotions can't be compared to my emotions or your emotions.

If the Lion is the character more or less realistic stories, it quite another matter.

When in reality the commander loses fight because has many emotions , he... heh... this is military failure, politely speaking.

Because of my respect to primarch, I will be better to think that Lion had special unknown to me motives.

 

It is possible to refuse a realistic approach to plots and to consider the Lion by a mythological figure. But then to compare his emotions to mine it is analytically incorrect.

It concerns all primarchs.

Um, no. Just plain no.

 

Almost all mythologies have their heroes and gods portrayed with very real and humanly understandable and relatable emotions. They would have almost no value if they did not.

 

If you refuse to look at all the evidence presented in a work as having influence on the characters in the work, then that is an analytical failure. Denial of evidence does not invalidate that evidence. The Lion is a creature of emotion and those emotions get in the way of his reasoning. It causes him to do "bad" things and does ultimately result in his own downfall at the hands of his betrayer.

 

I have read the 3 horus heresy stories written about our legion. And the lion displays mostly paranoia, rage and loyalty to his legion and The Emperor. I have no doubt in my mind that he would spare Luther's life out of past loyalties.

 

'paranoia, rage and loyalty'

It is called 'difficult character'. It's not mythological style.

It's called a well written, multi-dimensional character that all literature should have. The Lion is not just some myth, and even myths have emotive reasons fully displayed in them.

 

You are trying to remove a portion of the fully legitimate analysis of the Lion for no other reason than that you seem to refuse to acknowledge him in that fashion. You have to defend that, no one else has to prove that the Lion acted out of emotion when that's fully evident.

 

Thank you for stating quite eloquently of what I wanted say. :)

[Phoebus]

There is a difference between the real person and the mythological hero. Emotions of the hero are strongly simplified. Books of BL-authors and codes are written from the different points of view and in various styles. Some texts look as mythology, others are more similar to descriptions of real people in literature. If Lion is only the mythological hero, his emotions can't be compared to my emotions or your emotions.

If the Lion is the character more or less realistic stories, it quite another matter.

In reality, though, most mythology focuses on characters who convey human emotions. The main difference is that they convey them with extremes. So, for instance, Achilles demonstrates extreme rage both when his slave, Briseis, is taken from him and when his ward, Patroclus, is slain. Odysseus shows great arrogance, challenging Poseidon and mocking the sea-god's blinded son. Practically no mythology shows heroes without human traits. These include the relcutance to kill someone dear to you... or the immediate rage that leads you to kill someone ostensibly loyal to you.

 

The Horus Heresy continues with this trend.

 

When in reality the commander loses fight because has many emotions , he... heh... this is military failure, politely speaking.

Because of my respect to primarch, I will be better to think that Lion had special unknown to me motives.

I can respect that. I just don't agree with it. :)

 

Probably, the problem consists not in a language barrier, but in a different approach to the analysis of books.

Suit you my explanations ?

No, I generally understand what you're trying to convey, but in this specific instance I have not been able to. It doesn't have to do with your approach to analysis. :(

 

Astelan and Belat together ruined operation. Belat besides appeared as the tale-bearer. I don't think that Lion is very trustful. Quarrel with Belat could become the Lion's inspection reason, about it also told Astelan in AoD. Check showed that the chapter master is really disobedient, he was banished. What here contradictions? If the book isn't pleasant to you, it doesn't mean that in it told lies or it doesn't exist. It is necessary to respect other readers.

I'm not trying to disrespect anyone. I assumed that the ending of "Call of the Lion" was the situation that prompted Astelan's recall to Caliban. Perhaps this happened before the campaign where Astelan crossed the Lion. I just find it awkward that Gav Thorpe wrote two different stories that accomplish basically the same thing (getting Astelan into trouble) without referencing each other in any way. Given that Astelan is inconsistent and doesn't provide proof for most of his accusations, I thought that "The Call of the Lion" might have been the true story behind his exile.

 

"Can you believe the word of a traitor? For that matter, is Astelan really a traitor, or the true follower of the Emperor's vision? Do Boreas's actions and his eventual doubts, perhaps conversion even, lend credence to Astelan's arguments? Alternatively, does the fact that Boreas's own experiences of abandonment weaken his resolve and create an unwitting sympathy with Astelan? I could go on, to talk about the Old Legion versus New Legion conflict, or the catalytic role played by the shadowy gene-seed thief (who is the enigmatic Cypher, for those who haven't guessed), but there isn't space. I'm never going to say one way or the other, because it has always been my intent that readers get to decide and debate these issues for themselves"(с) Gav Thorpe

The plot will not disappear. But, like you said, I have full authority to not believe Astelan when he says he was exiled for disobeying the Primarch. ;)

 

Оne mad fallen deceived two Caplains, including the great master Sapphon? ;)

There are varying degrees of insanity. Some insane people talk to imaginary friends. Other people are so traumatized that they suppress memories or even re-invent memories to better cope with their condition.

 

Is that so difficult to believe? Astelan was a superhuman warrior sworn to serve the Emperor. He found himself disgraced and exiled. He turned against his Primarch and was subsequently cast through space and time by the forces of Chaos. For ten thousand years, he's been experiencing things we could not possibly imagine before being deposited back in the material universe.

 

Yeah, I think there's room for Astelan to be slightly unhinged. ;)

 

I am the fan of good books with not primitive plot.

Me, too. :)

[Reinen]

...

 

Brother Phoebus!

It is discussion interesting to me, but it was beyond this subject. Probably, it is necessary to create other subject.

 

Me, too. smile.gif

 

It is good.

[Sviar]

Since I have not yet(I am on my way to) read every DA book, I have some silly questions.

 

Do Da have any clue how many the fallen are? Reading this topic the it is clear that it is not stated in the fluff. But is it written in the fluff that the Inner circle knows how many to hunt? Otherwise lets say that DA caught every fallen, but they have no idea that they did so they keep hunting something that is not there.

 

Angels of Absolution consider themselves absolved of their own sins during the Fall of Caliban.

 

Is it widespread in the AoA, or do AoA have their own Inner circle? How much do they know? Because AoA sometimes fight alongside the DA and if they know the common DA marine would know after a few joined campagnes.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

Since I have not yet(I am on my way to) read every DA book, I have some silly questions.

 

Do Da have any clue how many the fallen are? Reading this topic the it is clear that it is not stated in the fluff. But is it written in the fluff that the Inner circle knows how many to hunt? Otherwise lets say that DA caught every fallen, but they have no idea that they did so they keep hunting something that is not there.

 

Angels of Absolution consider themselves absolved of their own sins during the Fall of Caliban.

 

Is it widespread in the AoA, or do AoA have their own Inner circle? How much do they know? Because AoA sometimes fight alongside the DA and if they know the common DA marine would know after a few joined campagnes.

 

Presumably the AoA only have the Inner Circle knowing.

 

There is the book of Salvation that Ezekiel carries, I believe it has the names of all the Fallen, or at least those Astartes on Caliban, and they just strike out the name when they repent.

[Bryan Blaire]

Presumably the AoA only have the Inner Circle knowing.

 

There is the book of Salvation that Ezekiel carries, I believe it has the names of all the Fallen, or at least those Astartes on Caliban, and they just strike out the name when they repent.

Unfortunately, it only bears the names of all those Fallen who have been captured by the Dark Angels, and per the 4th Ed DA Codex, the names are often written in their own blood.

 

Sviar, you have actually hit on why the "endless/mystic hunt" is a theme for the Dark Angels in my mind. It isn't written anywhere that I've seen that the Dark Angels/Unforgiven actually do know how many Fallen there are, so they will have to hunt from now until the last Unforgiven dies, and even then, the task will not be complete (because they could have just not survived long enough for the Chaos Gods to spit the last Fallen out).

[Augustus]

I think Boreas said they have a list of the first 300 to swear loyalty to Luther with Astelan being at the top.

[Phoebus]

Are you guys sure that the initial Inner Circle didn't have the EXACT same discussion we had, to include zingers like,

 

"Assuming Luther managed to get four full training cycles, each with an optimal 4,212 Astartes - per that traitor Zahariel's report - they could not have more than 16,848 recruits... not counting their training Chapters."

"That's not bad. We can do an Official Countdown of the Unforgiven. We can have interactive Fallen Holo-Displays in every Inner Circle Sanctum, it will be fun!"

"But what if Zahariel was lying, sire? Maybe there were more of them!"

"!@#$%^&!!!! I guess we'll be hunting them forever now, won't we?!?"

 

:)

[Captain Semper]

;)

 

OK, to recap:

 

The destruction of Caliban alone cast enough shadow on the numbers of alive Fallen... Trying to guess how many are out there is a next to impossible task. Trying to workout how many there were at the peak is a much more manageable task - as this thread has shown. However, things that cannot be quantified are:

 

1. The casualties of the "Civil War" on Caliban as described by Astelan. ALL such casualties should be taken out of the total amount of Fallen - as the previous calculation assumed that all DAs on Caliban once the Heresy started (and therefore the Legion became isolated) counted as Fallen.

2. The casualties the Fallen suffered from the bombardment of the DA fleet. This would have been devastating and a very large number of Marines on the ground would have died.

3. The casualties of the landing of the DAs - in principle this could be quantifiable if the DAs had the time for a body count but...

4. ...Caliban fell apart! Some Fallen scattered to time and space but one cannot exclude the possibility that some died in the event itself. Furthermore

 

So the above make the exact calculation of the fallen impossible both from an in-Universe and out-of-Universe perspective. We can of course estimate the order of magnitude but that's only to get a rough idea of whether the Fallen were 10% of the Legion or 50% of the Legion. It seems closer to the former than the latter woth 20k an absolute maximum. Not much use for an Interrogator Chaplain but OK for us I guess... :D

 

However this creates another question: How large was the Legion? To which again there is no definite answer todate. An estimate could be that at the peak they were 120k at best. From there one has to take out the casualties suffered (and presumably not replenshed since the Legion was isolated) in the Thramas Crusade and the mop-up operations in the aftermath of the Siege of the Emperor's Palace. However the Thramas Crusade was only 3 years long and give the speed with which the DAs could relocate ;) it makes you wonder how come they were not on Terra earlier? It is reasonable to assume that they had other engagements and possibly other casualties before they allowed themselves to go back.

 

But of course this is purely an assumption. Based on what we do know the DAs would probably have suffered minimal casualties throughout this period and the Legion could still be close to 100k or in the adverse scenario 80k.

 

So before the Caliban showdown and assuming the so-called "Civil War" on Caliban had negligible casualties (no way of knowing really - could be wildly off here) we had 80k loyalists (at worse) vs. 20k (at best). Then the bombing started and the invasion and the planet was broken up... That undoubtedly killed some loyalists too... still at least 50k loyalist survivors sounds plausible. In fact a number north of 60k could be easily argued when considering how devastatingthe orbital bombardment must have been...

 

So: 60k means 60 Second Founding Chapters in which no High Lords of Terra were involved - they all stemmed from the original Legion and probably headed by the Lion's senior staff - his Inner Circle! That's the Legion right there - at 50% of it's original strength maybe but probably increasing as future Foundings came about!

[Reinen]

I think Boreas said they have a list of the first 300 to swear loyalty to Luther with Astelan being at the top.

 

 

not 300.

136 names.

 

page 85, in in the edition of the 98th year:

 

'For ten times a thousand years we have hunted the Fallen Angels that almost destroyed the Lion and his Legion, wherever they might be. We do not know how many of you there are, or where we might find you. But we have that list, and it contains the names of the hundred and thirty-six Space Marines who first swore allegiance to Luther when he rose against our primarch. Your name, Commander Astelan, is at the top of that list. We have been hunting you for a very long time, and now we shall learn the truth from you.'©AoD

 

 

;) Inconvenient document! And it is impossible to call the lawyer.