New Possessed

[Feste]

And still being able to attack that round, albeit only hitting on 5s is a vast improvement on what we had.

I think for me this is the biggest thing. Taking a wound isn't a massive problem, it's standing around like a fool that's annoying.

[Iron Sage]

And still being able to attack that round, albeit only hitting on 5s is a vast improvement on what we had.

I think for me this is the biggest thing. Taking a wound isn't a massive problem, it's standing around like a fool that's annoying.

 

Exactly.

[Brother Ambroz]

Correct me if I'm wrong. But I believe we're now the only marine codex that gets an AP2 @ initiative close combat weapon these days(except maybe Calgar's PFists and other such unique character nonsense). New boons chart gives us a chance(however slight) to recover the lost wound if a 1 is rolled. And still beig able to attack that round, albeit only hitting on 5s is a vast improvement on what we had.

 

For now. The way these new daemon weapons are sounding, it sounds like it's going to be initiative 1 for ap 2. The only daemon weapon that is AP 2 besides Drachnyen is the axe and axes are usually unwieldy...

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Lol, but its obviously how a DAEMONIC weapon, in my opinion at least, SHOULD work. I totally fail to see the issue to say the least. With great power comes some modicum of risk. And yes, rolling a 1 is a risk, and frankly if you are so blind that you can`t even see the obvious, that daemon weapons got better that is, then I dont know what to say. Your statement that they didnt get better is certainly very categorically false and borderline silly.

 

In your opinion. In my opinion, they should work precisely as they did in 3.5, where the roll is taken after the combat to see if it bites you. That applied the risk as well as the benefit without actively inflicting an advantage to every other faction in the game regardless of cost or effectiveness, which is perfectly daemonic enough. While I can appreciate that you might be helplessly naive or subject to some form of pathological optimism where you cannot help but see that a glass is always and only half-full, I would like to remind you that while the glass may very well be half-full, it makes no difference if what it's half-full of is cat piss.

[Bearingtheword]

While I do think its appropriate for a Daemon wep to have a chance to come back and bite you in the <_<: , I don't think the chance of it happening one out of six times I use it appropriate. If I had a hammer that smashed my hands one out of six times I tried to drive in a nail, I would be looking for a new tool, not to mention a good doctor. It should be more like the Perils of the Warp, where if you roll snake-eyes it bites you once, with an armour save, and the more ones you roll (i.e on 6 attacks you roll 1,1,2,1,6,5 then you'd take the number of 1's minus 1 in wounds with an armour save allowed. In the example you'd have 2 wounds) the greater the possibility of being hurt....Greater risk for greater reward and all that...

 

~BtW

[Smurfalypse]

While I do think its appropriate for a Daemon wep to have a chance to come back and bite you in the <_<: , I don't think the chance of it happening one out of six times I use it appropriate. If I had a hammer that smashed my hands one out of six times I tried to drive in a nail, I would be looking for a new tool, not to mention a good doctor. It should be more like the Perils of the Warp, where if you roll snake-eyes it bites you once, with an armour save, and the more ones you roll (i.e on 6 attacks you roll 1,1,2,1,6,5 then you'd take the number of 1's minus 1 in wounds with an armour save allowed. In the example you'd have 2 wounds) the greater the possibility of being hurt....Greater risk for greater reward and all that...

 

~BtW

 

You need a better perspective on it. If you had a hammer that could build half the house with one stroke, would you take the shot in the hand one out of every six times?

 

These things and Chaos in general are about power with risk, each person who worships the Chaos Gods seeks the power they bring and has to balance out the risk with that. Sometimes it works out in your favor, sometimes it doesnt.

[Brother Ambroz]

I'd take the bad 1D6 roll to see if it hurts you if we can keep the AP2 at initative.

[Feste]

While I do think its appropriate for a Daemon wep to have a chance to come back and bite you in the <_<: , I don't think the chance of it happening one out of six times I use it appropriate. If I had a hammer that smashed my hands one out of six times I tried to drive in a nail, I would be looking for a new tool, not to mention a good doctor. It should be more like the Perils of the Warp, where if you roll snake-eyes it bites you once, with an armour save, and the more ones you roll (i.e on 6 attacks you roll 1,1,2,1,6,5 then you'd take the number of 1's minus 1 in wounds with an armour save allowed. In the example you'd have 2 wounds) the greater the possibility of being hurt....Greater risk for greater reward and all that...

 

~BtW

 

You need a better perspective on it. If you had a hammer that could build half the house with one stroke, would you take the shot in the hand one out of every six times?

 

These things and Chaos in general are about power with risk, each person who worships the Chaos Gods seeks the power they bring and has to balance out the risk with that. Sometimes it works out in your favor, sometimes it doesnt.

Also, if that hammer was a giant sword, the house was a Galactic Empire, and the 'you' was a crazed 10,000 year old superhuman that getting hurt might not be a massive concern.

 

Do we know the cost of them? At 40pts still I'd be happy with them, but I know some others around here wouldn't. If they take 10pt cut in cost, will that change your mind?

[Smurfalypse]

While I do think its appropriate for a Daemon wep to have a chance to come back and bite you in the ;): , I don't think the chance of it happening one out of six times I use it appropriate. If I had a hammer that smashed my hands one out of six times I tried to drive in a nail, I would be looking for a new tool, not to mention a good doctor. It should be more like the Perils of the Warp, where if you roll snake-eyes it bites you once, with an armour save, and the more ones you roll (i.e on 6 attacks you roll 1,1,2,1,6,5 then you'd take the number of 1's minus 1 in wounds with an armour save allowed. In the example you'd have 2 wounds) the greater the possibility of being hurt....Greater risk for greater reward and all that...

 

~BtW

 

You need a better perspective on it. If you had a hammer that could build half the house with one stroke, would you take the shot in the hand one out of every six times?

 

These things and Chaos in general are about power with risk, each person who worships the Chaos Gods seeks the power they bring and has to balance out the risk with that. Sometimes it works out in your favor, sometimes it doesnt.

Also, if that hammer was a giant sword, the house was a Galactic Empire, and the 'you' was a crazed 10,000 year old superhuman that getting hurt might not be a massive concern.

 

Do we know the cost of them? At 40pts still I'd be happy with them, but I know some others around here wouldn't. If they take 10pt cut in cost, will that change your mind?

 

40pts is a deal for how they currently work in our codex IMO. Lately my Chaos Lord has been ripping squads to pieces.

[Urdokadin]

Well at least with Ahriman or getting the master of deception ability you can infiltrate them or outflank. Personally I think the way to go now is to run a "pink tide". Putting 90 cultists on the table is only around 300 points. Just having that many models on the table forces target priority issues. In an edition where shooting is becoming prominent, the only really efficient way for people to gut massive hordes like that out of terrain (or from behind an aegis...) is to assault them out of it.

Possessed I think have a very real utility as a counter assault unit running behind the blobs.

[Feste]

Well at least with Ahriman or getting the master of deception ability you can infiltrate them or outflank. Personally I think the way to go now is to run a "pink tide". Putting 90 cultists on the table is only around 300 points. Just having that many models on the table forces target priority issues. In an edition where shooting is becoming prominent, the only really efficient way for people to gut massive hordes like that out of terrain (or from behind an aegis...) is to assault them out of it.

Possessed I think have a very real utility as a counter assault unit running behind the blobs.

Ironically I think Possessed might be very useful against those 90 Cultists you just mentioned. I get the feel that they're being geared for light infantry assault rather than a anti-heavy role. I think 2 of their randoms are pretty good against the light infantry, and with Fear they can do a number on that sort of unit.

[Urdokadin]

Well with being ap3 a third of the time, I think they have utility enough against everything in power armor and down. Even though they lack grenades, slaanesh definitely comes ahead in my book, feel no pain from the icon makes them fairly durable.

[Smurfalypse]

Well at least with Ahriman or getting the master of deception ability you can infiltrate them or outflank. Personally I think the way to go now is to run a "pink tide". Putting 90 cultists on the table is only around 300 points. Just having that many models on the table forces target priority issues. In an edition where shooting is becoming prominent, the only really efficient way for people to gut massive hordes like that out of terrain (or from behind an aegis...) is to assault them out of it.

Possessed I think have a very real utility as a counter assault unit running behind the blobs.

Ironically I think Possessed might be very useful against those 90 Cultists you just mentioned. I get the feel that they're being geared for light infantry assault rather than a anti-heavy role. I think 2 of their randoms are pretty good against the light infantry, and with Fear they can do a number on that sort of unit.

 

For the price though, they still arent all that great of an option. I would personally rather have Mutilators pulling up the rear on foot if you are looking for a good counter attack unit.

 

Better save, better weapons, more versitile, much cheaper, also has the option to deepstrike if you decide that you need it. Just my two cents, as much as it pains me to say it :*(

[Urdokadin]

Mutilators aren't fleet and are SnP, they will be out run by their escorts. Now if you can deep strike off icons without scatter still....I'd say the new raptors would be the go to unit, they're faster overall than both those units, provide a significant defensive bonus with the blind ability and are always ap3. Toss some rhinos going up the field with dirge casters preventing overwatch, I can see this army needing it's components to all combo off one another for net bonuses; it's equivalent to how necrons are a book full of choices that only really shine when paired with XYZ to become brilliant.

[Smurfalypse]

Mutilators aren't fleet and are SnP, they will be out run by their escorts. Now if you can deep strike off icons without scatter still....I'd say the new raptors would be the go to unit, they're faster overall than both those units, provide a significant defensive bonus with the blind ability and are always ap3. Toss some rhinos going up the field with dirge casters preventing overwatch, I can see this army needing it's components to all combo off one another for net bonuses; it's equivalent to how necrons are a book full of choices that only really shine when paired with XYZ to become brilliant.

 

S&P doenst slow you down, you still move your six inches. They would act in exactly the same way as a possessed would in this senario.

[Iron Sage]

Lol, but its obviously how a DAEMONIC weapon, in my opinion at least, SHOULD work. I totally fail to see the issue to say the least. With great power comes some modicum of risk. And yes, rolling a 1 is a risk, and frankly if you are so blind that you can`t even see the obvious, that daemon weapons got better that is, then I dont know what to say. Your statement that they didnt get better is certainly very categorically false and borderline silly.

 

In your opinion. In my opinion, they should work precisely as they did in 3.5, where the roll is taken after the combat to see if it bites you. That applied the risk as well as the benefit without actively inflicting an advantage to every other faction in the game regardless of cost or effectiveness, which is perfectly daemonic enough. While I can appreciate that you might be helplessly naive or subject to some form of pathological optimism where you cannot help but see that a glass is always and only half-full, I would like to remind you that while the glass may very well be half-full, it makes no difference if what it's half-full of is cat piss.

 

Helplessly naive and/or pathological optismism? Excuse me, but are you 14 years old having recently learned a new word which you don`t really know what means, or the mental equalent of said age group? Dont insult people or project childish personal attacks when they are speaking facts, that is A), and B ) is that you should try not to spew nonsense in general, which you have obviously done here, kid. If you want to debate, then debate with reason and dont resort to High School imbecile rethoric.

 

The fact is that Daemon weapons are better now. We still dont know their costs, but they do work better now, and everyone but you have the eyes to see that. You write as if +D6 attacks with decent AP on top of an attack profile is no big deal at all, while the rational among us would deem that pretty decent.

[Sception]

I don't view the warp talons blind as a particularly meaningful ability. It's very short range, meaning you're already risking deep strike mishap by even trying to use it - something worth doing if you're, say, vanguard vets and actually get to charge that turn, but not really worth it just for blind. Even if you do land on target, it's just an initiative test to ignore it, anyway. All in all, not worth it, imo. Better off just deploying, or landing behind some LOS blocking terrain and jumping out to charge next turn. That's more reliably than counting on a 1/3 chance of being slightly protected only from the closest enemy units.

 

Not that warp talons will necessarily be gad. A unit of assault marines with lightning claws is somewhat threatening on its own. I just think their 'signature ability' is a bit underwhelming - way more risk than reward.

[Brother Ambroz]

The fact is that Daemon weapons are better now. We still dont know their costs, but they do work better now, and everyone but you have the eyes to see that. You write as if +D6 attacks with decent AP on top of an attack profile is no big deal at all, while the rational among us would deem that pretty decent.

 

In some ways they're better and in other ways worse. Unless I'm not seeing something, all the daemon weapons except abby's sword are now AP3 or higher except for the axe (which is likely unwieldy). Therefore we lose our AP2 initiative attacks.

 

S&P doenst slow you down, you still move your six inches. They would act in exactly the same way as a possessed would in this senario.

 

True it doesn't slow you down but you are also unable to run or fleet which possessed would likely be doing and cultists would likely run as well.

[Iron Sage]

The fact is that Daemon weapons are better now. We still dont know their costs, but they do work better now, and everyone but you have the eyes to see that. You write as if +D6 attacks with decent AP on top of an attack profile is no big deal at all, while the rational among us would deem that pretty decent.

 

In some ways they're better and in other ways worse. Unless I'm not seeing something, all the daemon weapons except abby's sword are now AP3 or higher except for the axe (which is likely unwieldy). Therefore we lose our AP2 initiative attacks.

 

S&P doenst slow you down, you still move your six inches. They would act in exactly the same way as a possessed would in this senario.

 

True it doesn't slow you down but you are also unable to run or fleet which possessed would likely be doing and cultists would likely run as well.

 

 

You may be right. Still a lot of attack potential though, which I think really should be stressed. That and the fact that you may now launch your profile attack at ws 1, which is a pretty big change from Thorpe-dex. Have you seen the daemon weapon stats by the way? Like you, I too think that not all of them will end up being ap 2, but I sincerly think some of them will be.

[Ammonius]

I don't view the warp talons blind as a particularly meaningful ability. It's very short range, meaning you're already risking deep strike mishap by even trying to use it - something worth doing if you're, say, vanguard vets and actually get to charge that turn, but not really worth it just for blind. Even if you do land on target, it's just an initiative test to ignore it, anyway. All in all, not worth it, imo. Better off just deploying, or landing behind some LOS blocking terrain and jumping out to charge next turn. That's more reliably than counting on a 1/3 chance of being slightly protected only from the closest enemy units.

 

Not that warp talons will necessarily be gad. A unit of assault marines with lightning claws is somewhat threatening on its own. I just think their 'signature ability' is a bit underwhelming - way more risk than reward.

I agree.

The best case scenario that I can think of for the blind effect is if you have a unit that has an Icon, and is already locked in melee, and you drop in the Warp Talons close enough to force a blind test, without risking the scatter. However, that's a lot of things that have to go right all at once. Now, if Warp Talons got a Hammer of Wrath that also inflicted blind, they would be super dangerous.

[Smurfalypse]

I don't view the warp talons blind as a particularly meaningful ability. It's very short range, meaning you're already risking deep strike mishap by even trying to use it - something worth doing if you're, say, vanguard vets and actually get to charge that turn, but not really worth it just for blind. Even if you do land on target, it's just an initiative test to ignore it, anyway. All in all, not worth it, imo. Better off just deploying, or landing behind some LOS blocking terrain and jumping out to charge next turn. That's more reliably than counting on a 1/3 chance of being slightly protected only from the closest enemy units.

 

Not that warp talons will necessarily be gad. A unit of assault marines with lightning claws is somewhat threatening on its own. I just think their 'signature ability' is a bit underwhelming - way more risk than reward.

I agree.

The best case scenario that I can think of for the blind effect is if you have a unit that has an Icon, and is already locked in melee, and you drop in the Warp Talons close enough to force a blind test, without risking the scatter. However, that's a lot of things that have to go right all at once. Now, if Warp Talons got a Hammer of Wrath that also inflicted blind, they would be super dangerous.

 

 

Unless our Icons can be used for them to deepstrike in, if that is the case you can be very precise with it and force as many units as possible to roll their I-test.

[Brother Ambroz]

You may be right. Still a lot of attack potential though, which I think really should be stressed. That and the fact that you may now launch your profile attack at ws 1, which is a pretty big change from Thorpe-dex. Have you seen the daemon weapon stats by the way? Like you, I too think that not all of them will end up being ap 2, but I sincerly think some of them will be.

 

Yeah being able to attack period after failing to control the weapon is a big (and welcome) change. I've just seen what other people have linked. Hopefully there are more we haven't seen yet or they just didn't include all the weapon stats.

[Ammonius]

I don't view the warp talons blind as a particularly meaningful ability. It's very short range, meaning you're already risking deep strike mishap by even trying to use it - something worth doing if you're, say, vanguard vets and actually get to charge that turn, but not really worth it just for blind. Even if you do land on target, it's just an initiative test to ignore it, anyway. All in all, not worth it, imo. Better off just deploying, or landing behind some LOS blocking terrain and jumping out to charge next turn. That's more reliably than counting on a 1/3 chance of being slightly protected only from the closest enemy units.

 

Not that warp talons will necessarily be gad. A unit of assault marines with lightning claws is somewhat threatening on its own. I just think their 'signature ability' is a bit underwhelming - way more risk than reward.

I agree.

The best case scenario that I can think of for the blind effect is if you have a unit that has an Icon, and is already locked in melee, and you drop in the Warp Talons close enough to force a blind test, without risking the scatter. However, that's a lot of things that have to go right all at once. Now, if Warp Talons got a Hammer of Wrath that also inflicted blind, they would be super dangerous.

 

 

Unless our Icons can be used for them to deepstrike in, if that is the case you can be very precise with it and force as many units as possible to roll their I-test.

...

Yeah, the best case scenario that I can think of for the blind effect is if you have a unit that has an Icon, and is already locked in melee, and you drop in the Warp Talons close enough to force a blind test, without risking the scatter. However, that's a lot of things that have to go right all at once. Now, if Warp Talons got a Hammer of Wrath that also inflicted blind, they would be super dangerous.

[Trevak Dal]

Hmm, the good news is Possessed with Jump packs = Count as Warptalons! Huzzah, I just saved myself $33! Thanks GW!

[Bearingtheword]

Hmm, the good news is Possessed with Jump packs = Count as Warptalons! Huzzah, I just saved myself $33! Thanks GW!

 

 

Now that is a good, no great, idea!

 

As to this whole optimist or pessimist bs being thrown around....to each their own. You can stick to your overabundant fan boi optimism, or You can stick to your anti-gw pessimism. Me? I'll stick to my cynical realism thank you very much. ;)

 

(yes that was dripping with sarcasm as some peeps seem to be getting a bit to wound up on both sides of this discussion, so some levity was called for)

 

~BtW