Is Cypher- in the new chaos codex?

[Sception]

Hey did anyone else notice the thunder hammer entry in the picture Kol linked?!?

 

It's thought (along with the scourge) to be a dreadnought option included as a nod to the old model (which had hammer & scourge options). It did not seem to be an option for terminators, although I suppose it could be available to characters.

 

EDIT: as for Cypher, it seems odd to me to put him in the DA book. He makes a lot more sense to me fighting alongside cultists, CSM, and chosen units than he does fighting along, well, anything from the deathwing or ravenwing, and as he was chased out in the heresy days I don't see him or any fallen with him having ready access to storm shields, land speeders, assault rifles, or other post heresy kit.

 

Makes me a bit sad that he's not in the CSM book, since he'd provide another special character, along with Bile, who would make sense fighting alongside any chaos faction. But ah, well.

[Kol Saresk]

Huh, now that you mention it I see it too. And there's a flail and a.......Oh. My. God. I'm going to turn into a girl and scream for five seconds. There is a Power Lance! I can so totally make a Sevatar wannabe now! Awesome! :rolleyes:

[Brother Ambroz]

If it was for a dread though shouldn't it be a seismic hammer?

[Brother Kovash]

As a Dark Angels player, it would make more sense if he were to be included in our upcoming codex. If that would give us the option of playing a full fledged Fallen army, then that would actually give us something unique that the other Loyalist codices don't have.

[Sception]

As a Dark Angels player, it would make more sense if he were to be included in our upcoming codex. If that would give us the option of playing a full fledged Fallen army, then that would actually give us something unique that the other Loyalist codices don't have.

 

Except that, think of all the rather basic things dark angels have that don't make any sense in a fallen army:

 

Land speeders of any variety

 

Scouts - the fallen don't exactly have a post heresy recruitment program that I'm aware of

 

Crusaders & other post heresy tanks

 

Basically the entirety of the ravenwing & deathwing, as their unique rules revolve around being special companies specifically involved in hunting the fallen

 

Interrogator Chaplains (yeah, part of the deathwing, but still needs to be called out inparticular!)

 

All of their special characters

 

 

Most of the things that make Dark Angels Dark Angels, and not just another generic marine variety, are specifically things they have to hunt the fallen, things that make no sense in an army of the Fallen, let alone one that includes Cypher himself.

 

As a Dark Angels player, would you rather have Cypher as an option in the Dark Angels book, one that makes no sense with like a third of the options in there, or would you rather have Cypher as an option in your friends Chaos army to set up awesome rivalry games?

 

 

Actually, could that be it? Could Cypher with a unit of fallen be an option the Dark Angel player buys for a negative points value, and then hands over to his opponent to play for that game? That would be a novel way to run things, certainly... That can't be it, though... What if the DA player was playing against nids, that would make no sense...

[Kol Saresk]

Well they could just make Fallen-wing and it be a Dark Angels army that excludes all of that special stuff. Problem is the aforementioned fact that most of the Fallen are seen either working alongside Chaos or in the thrall of Chaos. I can only think of one instance where I have seen a Fallen that was neither and that was Astellan in Angels of Darkness.

[Emperors Immortals]

Cypher = replace all Codex; Dark Angels special characters, Foc, armoury and wargear options with those from Codex;Chaos Space Marines.

[Kol Saresk]

Cypher = replace all Codex; Dark Angels special characters, Foc, armoury and wargear options with those from Codex;Chaos Space Marines.

Ironically.

[Kristoff]

Could he be a WD-ruled figure able to be a Warlord or FOC-less HQ for either DA or CSM?

[Lepaca]

Since GW is apparently developing mini-armies that can be taken as allies I would guess that we might see a Cypher and the Fallen mini-dex.

[Iron Sage]

Since GW is apparently developing mini-armies that can be taken as allies I would guess that we might see a Cypher and the Fallen mini-dex.

 

Where did you hear this mini-army rumour?

[Killax]

Malisteen are you really implying people would be forced to field them with the above?

Now as other of your posts that does not make sence, at all. If you want to make a fluff list you'll do it.

 

Why would he be in the Chaos Space Marines Codex in the first place?

He's never been part of the traitor legions war against the Emperor or is a full aknowleged Chaos follower.

 

What is known about him is that he is part of an inner war within the Dark Angel Legion, again, for all those who seem to forget it, WITHIN THE DARK ANGEL LEGION.

 

Now to me the following should not be forgotten:

 

1. First there where legions all supporting the Empra.

2. Secondly there where traitor legions who now supported Horus, at this point I would not call them Chaos Space Marines because the Chaos Gods supported these legions but did not change the overall looks or brought huge transformations to the legions (example: Thousand Sons where still made out of flesh and the Death Guard where not bloated zombie-marines yet).

3. Horus was defeated, the traitor legions fled into the warp changing their looks, gods marking their champions with mutations and primarchs who became Daemon Princes making the formerly army know as Space Marines now are Chaos Space Marines.

 

Now if you look at these progression we see 3. is represented in Codex Chaos Space Marines.

 

Cypher and his fallen are still very much Space Marines and even more Dark Angels regardless of their past and the "truth" they follow.

[caboosebe]

Since GW is apparently developing mini-armies that can be taken as allies I would guess that we might see a Cypher and the Fallen mini-dex.

 

Wouldn't we have heard something similar then in our new Codex? Like the Relictors 'using Chaos against Chaos' ?

[Kol Saresk]

Since GW is apparently developing mini-armies that can be taken as allies I would guess that we might see a Cypher and the Fallen mini-dex.

 

Wouldn't we have heard something similar then in our new Codex? Like the Relictors 'using Chaos against Chaos' ?

No, see that is going to be in GK's new FAQ with the rest of the "use Chaos to fight Chaos" individuals.

[Vesper]

Malisteen are you really implying people would be forced to field them with the above?

Now as other of your posts that does not make sence, at all. If you want to make a fluff list you'll do it.

 

Why would he be in the Chaos Space Marines Codex in the first place?

He's never been part of the traitor legions war against the Emperor or is a full aknowleged Chaos follower.

 

What is known about him is that he is part of an inner war within the Dark Angel Legion, again, for all those who seem to forget it, WITHIN THE DARK ANGEL LEGION.

 

Now to me the following should not be forgotten:

 

1. First there where legions all supporting the Empra.

2. Secondly there where traitor legions who now supported Horus, at this point I would not call them Chaos Space Marines because the Chaos Gods supported these legions but did not change the overall looks or brought huge transformations to the legions (example: Thousand Sons where still made out of flesh and the Death Guard where not bloated zombie-marines yet).

3. Horus was defeated, the traitor legions fled into the warp changing their looks, gods marking their champions with mutations and primarchs who became Daemon Princes making the formerly army know as Space Marines now are Chaos Space Marines.

 

Now if you look at these progression we see 3. is represented in Codex Chaos Space Marines.

 

Cypher and his fallen are still very much Space Marines and even more Dark Angels regardless of their past and the "truth" they follow.

 

Come on, seriously, read the fluff before posting things...

 

First : There's far more than the original traitor legions in the Chaos dex.

Then : "He's never been part of the traitor legions war against the Emperor or is a full aknowleged Chaos follower." Wrong. He worked for Chaos before (according to his chat with Abaddon) and during the 13th BC.

Then : "2. Secondly there where traitor legions who now supported Horus, at this point I would not call them Chaos Space Marines because the Chaos Gods supported these legions but did not change the overall looks or brought huge transformations to the legions (example: Thousand Sons where still made out of flesh and the Death Guard where not bloated zombie-marines yet)." Totally false. During the Siege of Terra, all Chaos marines legions got their "actual" look.

Then : "Cypher and his fallen are still very much Space Marines and even more Dark Angels regardless of their past and the "truth" they follow." Wrong again. In most novels, Fallen are hideously mutated. They are basically CSM who focus on pissing off the DA.

 

In conclusion :

"Why would he be in the Chaos Space Marines Codex in the first place? "

Because he always has been. And all the reasons above.

[Sception]

Malisteen are you really implying people would be forced to field them with the above?

Now as other of your posts that does not make sence, at all. If you want to make a fluff list you'll do it.

 

"Now as other of" ... what the what? First of all, it's spelled "sense". Unless you meant since? Honestly, K-man, that sentence was a grammar nightmare, for all I know you meant 'source' or 'sans'. Once again, your barbs cut deep, but let it never be said that Malisteen was an ungraceful adversary. While it hardly seems worth my time to try and bother to parse this out, what would you know, it just so happens I have a couple minutes to completely blow while I wait for my very important business thing to process. So here. Let's see if I can help ya out.

 

No, I'm not implying people will (or even would, since this is all hypothetical) be forced to field those things with fallen, just that those things are kind of everything that defines the dark angels as a faction distinct from other loyalist marine factions. You see, it's a bit silly to put a character into a codex where they don't make sense being used alongside any of that faction's defining characteristics.

 

Why would he be in the Chaos Space Marines Codex in the first place?

Pre heresy tech (autocannons instead of assault cannons, etc)? Precedent? A fallen angels army makes more sense with cultists and cult leaders than it does with deathwing and inquisitor chaplains? Veterans of the long war makes rather a lot of sense for them as a special rule / fluff concept?

 

He's never been part of the traitor legions war against the Emperor or is a full aknowleged Chaos follower.

Except for his participation in the 13th crusade? Sure, maybe he's only pretending to fight for chaos and is secretly trying to help out the imperials, the fluff is left deliberately ambiguous in that regard, but the same could be said of the Alpha legion. Should the Alpha Legion be in the Dark Angels codex?

 

What is known about him is that he is part of an inner war within the Dark Angel Legion, again, for all those who seem to forget it, WITHIN THE DARK ANGEL LEGION.

An inner war that resulted in the fallen being evicted from from the Legion in the Heresy era, before the Dark Angels Legion became the Dark Angels chapter, with chapter organization, combat squads, land speeders, assault cannons, and so on. From that point, the Fallen were left to make their way as renegades, much as other notable non-legion Chaos factions like the Red Corsairs, and like the Corsairs the Fallen have a history of working with the forces of chaos, who are willing to harbor such renegades where loyalist forces are not.

 

I mean, honestly, this is pretty straight forward. The only way Cypher makes sense in a dark angels book is if he's a free character you can give to the opposing side when playing against chaos in exchange for your dark angel army fighting extra super hard that game.

 

Also:

3. Horus was defeated, the traitor legions fled into the warp changing their looks, gods marking their champions with mutations and primarchs who became Daemon Princes making the formerly army know as Space Marines now are Chaos Space Marines.

When the Fallen were defeated by what history would record as the loyalist Dark Angels, their planet Caliban was shattered by a massive warp storm that drew the fallen into the warp and scattered them throughout time and space. So yes, just like the traitor legions who fled to the Eye of Terror, the Fallen escaped judgment by fleeing to the warp, and as such have been exposed to all the same baleful influences as any other chaos marine.

 

 

Really, now, a Google search would help you with this. But I'll spare you the trouble, just because we're such great "friends": here's the Fallen's fluff.

 

But now my very important business thing is beeping and spinning, so I must away. I await your next barely coherent, badly misinformed, and arbitrarily aggressive retort on pins and needles. Pins and needles, my would be nemesis.

[Iron Sage]

Malisteen are you really implying people would be forced to field them with the above?

Now as other of your posts that does not make sence, at all. If you want to make a fluff list you'll do it.

 

Why would he be in the Chaos Space Marines Codex in the first place?

He's never been part of the traitor legions war against the Emperor or is a full aknowleged Chaos follower.

 

What is known about him is that he is part of an inner war within the Dark Angel Legion, again, for all those who seem to forget it, WITHIN THE DARK ANGEL LEGION.

 

Now to me the following should not be forgotten:

 

1. First there where legions all supporting the Empra.

2. Secondly there where traitor legions who now supported Horus, at this point I would not call them Chaos Space Marines because the Chaos Gods supported these legions but did not change the overall looks or brought huge transformations to the legions (example: Thousand Sons where still made out of flesh and the Death Guard where not bloated zombie-marines yet).

3. Horus was defeated, the traitor legions fled into the warp changing their looks, gods marking their champions with mutations and primarchs who became Daemon Princes making the formerly army know as Space Marines now are Chaos Space Marines.

 

Now if you look at these progression we see 3. is represented in Codex Chaos Space Marines.

 

Cypher and his fallen are still very much Space Marines and even more Dark Angels regardless of their past and the "truth" they follow.

 

Come on, seriously, read the fluff before posting things...

 

First : There's far more than the original traitor legions in the Chaos dex.

Then : "He's never been part of the traitor legions war against the Emperor or is a full aknowleged Chaos follower." Wrong. He worked for Chaos before (according to his chat with Abaddon) and during the 13th BC.

Then : "2. Secondly there where traitor legions who now supported Horus, at this point I would not call them Chaos Space Marines because the Chaos Gods supported these legions but did not change the overall looks or brought huge transformations to the legions (example: Thousand Sons where still made out of flesh and the Death Guard where not bloated zombie-marines yet)." Totally false. During the Siege of Terra, all Chaos marines legions got their "actual" look.

Then : "Cypher and his fallen are still very much Space Marines and even more Dark Angels regardless of their past and the "truth" they follow." Wrong again. In most novels, Fallen are hideously mutated. They are basically CSM who focus on pissing off the DA.

 

In conclusion :

"Why would he be in the Chaos Space Marines Codex in the first place? "

Because he always has been. And all the reasons above.

 

I declare a technical knock out. :lol:

[Smurfalypse]

Huh, now that you mention it I see it too. And there's a flail and a.......Oh. My. God. I'm going to turn into a girl and scream for five seconds. There is a Power Lance! I can so totally make a Sevatar wannabe now! Awesome! :lol:

 

 

LMAO awesome.

[Captain Idaho]

Um, actually the role of Cypher in the 13th Black Crusade was far less on the side of Chaos and far more on the side of furthering his own agenda. People keep pointing out his working with Abaddon, but let's not forget how displeased with Cypher Abaddon was eh? If I remember correctly, Cypher's influence caused a surge in loyalty to the Imperium and Emperor which worked against Abaddon's plans. Cypher is a very dubious character serving his own agenda and seems not to want to bring down the Imperium but instead expose the "truth" of the DA Legion's loyalties.

 

Anyway, it does make sense Cypher is placed in the DA Codex, since he is integral to their back ground character. There might be Chaotic influence on the Fallen, but that connection can be included in the DA Codex with the rules granted by Cypher and any Fallen rules (whatever they may be).

[Vesper]

Still don't see the beginning of a reason to put him in it as he always was in the Chaos Codex.

[Sception]

Anyway, it does make sense Cypher is placed in the DA Codex, since he is integral to their back ground character. There might be Chaotic influence on the Fallen, but that connection can be included in the DA Codex with the rules granted by Cypher and any Fallen rules (whatever they may be).

 

Inquisitor Kryptman is a central figure in the Tyranid background. He still wouldn't make much sense as a special character in the Tyranid book.

[Killax]

No, I'm not implying people will (or even would, since this is all hypothetical) be forced to field those things with fallen, just that those things are kind of everything that defines the dark angels as a faction distinct from other loyalist marine factions. You see, it's a bit silly to put a character into a codex where they don't make sense being used alongside any of that faction's defining characteristics.

 

How come you think this makes no sence? Why do you feel forced fielding this stuff in the first place? Do you understand the term "optional"?

 

They still are Dark Angels, with Dark Angel geneseed. They do not possess any Daemonic influence in their chapter.

In case of the Dark Angels it doesn't even make them perse traitor. There are different cannon versions of what happend at Caliban.

 

In the novel Angels of Darkness (Novel) by Gav Thorpe, a different version of Luther's Betrayal is revealed: Astelan, an original member of the Dark Angels who was transported several millennia into the present when the Warp Storm tore Caliban apart, tells this unorthodox version of the events during the Betrayal. Astelan claims that it was the Lion who betrayed the Dark Angels, not Luther. His claim is considered heresy by Interrogator-Chaplain Boreas, and Commander Azrael has Astelan placed in a cell near Luther.

However, in the novel Fallen Angels (Novel), Luther is the one who secedes from the Imperium, claiming the Lion had betrayed them by leaving them on Caliban for centuries, while the Great Crusade continued. His superstitions were furthered when he learned that a cult of Terrans were in the process of a daemonic ritual, which was narrowly stopped by Zahariel, a librarian who Luther had grown fond of. Luther took to reading the books of an order who studied the Warp. He put what he learned into practice - a notable example occurred when the Librarian Israfael attacked him with a bolt of lightning, and it simply dissipated.

source: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Luther#.UGNLyY2Ttpp

 

Pre heresy tech (autocannons instead of assault cannons, etc)? Precedent? A fallen angels army makes more sense with cultists and cult leaders than it does with deathwing and inquisitor chaplains? Veterans of the long war makes rather a lot of sense for them as a special rule / fluff concept?

 

What has this discussion has to do with pre heresy tech? Dark Angels are even more focused on Plasma Weaponry. If you don't field Assault cannons it would even be more fluffy. Again I do not get what you are hinting at with tech problems? The build up of an army list has options not fixed units with fixed weaponry.

 

As a mather of fact the new Chaos SM Weaponry would make no sence to be in his army as would the use of SM Weaponry, by your logic.

 

Except for his participation in the 13th crusade, or the fact that the fallen broke with the rest of their legion because they wanted to follow Horus in the first place? Sure, maybe he's only pretending to fight for chaos and is secretly trying to help out the imperials, the fluff is left deliberately ambiguous in that regard, but the same could be said of the Alpha legion. Should the Alpha Legion be in the Dark Angels codex?

I guess beging part of Dark Angel fluff makes no sence for you to actually put the Fallen in the codex that keeps that fluff in a book?

Alpha Legion.... You like to bring in Legions and Weaponry that has nothing to do with this discussion? Uhm, okay...

 

The codex Chaos Space Marines focusses mainly on the Traitor Legions. The whole Legion, including the Traitor Primarchs.

IF they where to include every renegade chapter it would mark them as either fully Chaos or fully Good Marine (if they where in that codex) leaving no options in between. (Un)fortunatly there are not only white or black chapters/warbands/marine armies.

 

An inner war that resulted in the fallen being evicted from from the Legion in the Heresy era, before the Dark Angels Legion became the Dark Angels chapter, with chapter organization, combat squads, land speeders, assault cannons, and so on. From that point, the Fallen were left to make their way as renegades, much as other notable non-legion Chaos factions like the Red Corsairs, and like the Corsairs the Fallen have a history of working with the forces of chaos, who are willing to harbor such renegades where loyalist forces are not.

 

And the fluff also mentions the same opposite of Fallen who do not follow Chaos patrons. Because of this, again, I think this should be in the book/codex/legion fluff they came from: Dark Angels. For your information the different perspectives:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/The_Fallen#.UGNP4I2Ttpo

 

I mean, honestly, this is pretty straight forward. The only way Cypher makes sense in a dark angels book is if he's a free character you can give to the opposing side when playing against chaos in exchange for your dark angel army fighting extra super hard that game.

The only thing that is pretty straight forward is your one-sighted perspective on The Fallen, where all the fluff supports the fact they are neither fully chaos nor fully dark angel.

 

- The Fallen orginate from the Dark Angels as such they are almost the same.

- I truly believe a character such as Cypher cannot be hated by the full chapter

(again, fluff supports this, the only ones who know the detail about the inner war are the 1st compagny)

- Cypher has acted as the "Voice of the Emperor" turning Loyalists to his will.

 

In my opinion Cypher should be in the Chaos Space Marine Codex if:

- The full Dark Angel chapter was aware of his doings, the inner war and his alignment thus no compagny would accept him as their leader.

 

Cheers,

 

PS if you would like to continue the discussions in other language's that is fine with me to, I know my English isn't perfect.

[Kol Saresk]

Also in "Angels of Darkness", Cypher led a squad of Dark Angels on a merry chase and while the cat was away, he broke into their fortress, killed all of their recruits, stole their gene-seed and left their own trap for them to set off. When the Dark Angels came back, they set off a virus that would have killed most of the Imperial population if they hadn't of decided to stay inside and lock the doors so the virus would run its course and the Imperials would survive while they would die a slow death for when their Power Armor ran out of power. Not exactly a defining moment to use to prove Cypher's "innocence".

 

Like I said, he is the true Renegade. Everything he does is for himself. He may help the Imperium from time to time, but him and the DA do not get along at all.

[Killax]

Also in "Angels of Darkness", Cypher led a squad of Dark Angels.

 

Well, because he did exactly that, isn't this enough of a reason to let him do exactly this, in a Dark Angel codex with Dark Angel squads?

 

Cypher is, as far as I know not the only commander who follows his own path, there are enough Loyalist who do what they want.

 

Cheers,

[Iron Sage]

Also in "Angels of Darkness", Cypher led a squad of Dark Angels.

 

Well, because he did exactly that, isn't this enough of a reason to let him do exactly this, in a Dark Angel codex with Dark Angel squads?

 

Cypher is, as far as I know not the only commander who follows his own path, there are enough Loyalist who do what they want.

 

Cheers,

 

But you could say the same of the Alpha Legion as well, Killax. They too, can be theoretically loyal to the Emperor in their own way according to fluff, though most likely they have fallen etc.

 

Regardless, I dont think this arguement is that important. The sky will remain as cloudy as yesterday if he is included in either codex, but I will repeat what I said earlier, that some WD rules with him might as we make him accessible to both codexes, as that I think would please everyone.