Is Cypher- in the new chaos codex?

[Vesper]

It's been a long time since I saw such fallacious stuff.

 

They still are Dark Angels, with Dark Angel geneseed. They do not possess any Daemonic influence in their chapter.

In case of the Dark Angels it doesn't even make them perse traitor. There are different cannon versions of what happend at Caliban.

Guess what, the fallen were never part of the DA chapter. They come from the legion. And living in the warp/going all chaosy (like they do), turns them into Chaos marines. Their background, and their current state brand them as typical traitor marines.

 

What has this discussion has to do with pre heresy tech? Dark Angels are even more focused on Plasma Weaponry. If you don't field Assault cannons it would even be more fluffy. Again I do not get what you are hinting at with tech problems? The build up of an army list has options not fixed units with fixed weaponry.

 

As a mather of fact the new Chaos SM Weaponry would make no sence to be in his army as would the use of SM Weaponry, by your logic.

His logic would imply that the fallen got heresy era stuff, like autocannons, and lack lan d speeders and stuff. Along with their potential dealings with Chaos marines, dark mechanicus, and the Chaos gods, picking stuff from the Chaos SM codex would make perfect sense, as some are as corrupted as any CSM.

 

I guess beging part of Dark Angel fluff makes no sence for you to actually put the Fallen in the codex that keeps that fluff in a book?

Alpha Legion.... You like to bring in Legions and Weaponry that has nothing to do with this discussion? Uhm, okay...

Grey knights were created from loyalists who escaped the traitor legions. So they should be in codex CSM.

That's fallacious. The fallen are enemies of the DA, and often pictured as CSM or working along CSM. If you don't get the proximity between those factions... Can't do anything for you.

 

And the fluff also mentions the same opposite of Fallen who do not follow Chaos patrons. Because of this, again, I think this should be in the book/codex/legion fluff they came from: Dark Angels.

Fallacious again, but you're right on one point, some aren't Chaos zealots.

And what ? Many Chaos marines don't worship the gods. The fallen are considered as traitor marines by the Imperium and the DA. They are just like any other CSM.

 

- The Fallen orginate from the Dark Angels as such they are almost the same.

So wrong. DA don't deal with Chaos forces, the Fallen don't have any unity, any military formation.

 

- I truly believe a character such as Cypher cannot be hated by the full chapter

(again, fluff supports this, the only ones who know the detail about the inner war are the 1st compagny)

ALL the "unforgiven" are raised with the sheer hatred of the fallen. Every single one of them. They try to hide the shame of their inner heresy, and to capture/kill the traitors. That's the whole point of the DA fluff.

 

- Cypher has acted as the "Voice of the Emperor" turning Loyalists to his will.

Creating numerous Chaos cults, spreading anti imperial propaganda (that CREED, THE KILLER picture is awesome, btw).

[Iron Sage]

As far as I understand the concept fo the Fallen,they are spread all over the galaxy, having fled, and are most often found in tiny, tiny numbers and indeed often solo. Some become God-Kings on a planet, other usurp planetary governors and live as High Nobillity for a few decades until they can no longer hide their space marine genetics, and then they flee again.

[Killax]

I guess I'll give in, you can call it fallacious.

 

The Fallen originate from the DA Legion, I mention it as a chapter (which it isn't obviously) "The Fallen".

 

His logic would imply that the fallen got heresy era stuff, like autocannons, and lack lan d speeders and stuff. Along with their potential dealings with Chaos marines, dark mechanicus, and the Chaos gods, picking stuff from the Chaos SM codex would make perfect sense, as some are as corrupted as any CSM.

And how would picking stuff from the SM Codex not make sence as some are corrupted as any CSM.

Dark Angels known for their Plasma Weapon specialty cannot gain much from the CSM in that aspect.

 

Grey knights were created from loyalists who escaped the traitor legions. So they should be in codex CSM.

That's fallacious. The fallen are enemies of the DA, and often pictured as CSM or working along CSM. If you don't get the proximity between those factions... Can't do anything for you.

Uhm Did I ever mention Grey Knights to be in the CSM Codex?

I am saying that the Chaos Space Marine codex is mostly focused on Traitor Legions and their Traitor Primarch.

The Loyalists who escaped the traitor legions are loyalist lol.

 

Fallacious again, The fallen are considered as traitor marines by the Imperium and the DA. They are just like any other CSM.

Nope sir, most of the Dark Angels kinda keep the fallen a secret, it's kinda where the DA are also know for, secrets.

 

ALL the "unforgiven" are raised with the sheer hatred of the fallen. Every single one of them. They try to hide the shame of their inner heresy, and to capture/kill the traitors. That's the whole point of the DA fluff.

The whole point of the DA fluff is that they only know parts not the full details, unless they are part of the 1st compagny.

Cypher again has the ability to act Loyal (while he isn't) so how exactly would he be unable to lead a Dark Angel army while he has done it allready?

[Vesper]

His logic would imply that the fallen got heresy era stuff, like autocannons, and lack lan d speeders and stuff. Along with their potential dealings with Chaos marines, dark mechanicus, and the Chaos gods, picking stuff from the Chaos SM codex would make perfect sense, as some are as corrupted as any CSM.

And how would picking stuff from the SM Codex not make sence as some are corrupted as any CSM.

Dark Angels known for their Plasma Weapon specialty cannot gain much from the CSM in that aspect.

 

Alpha Legion can't take SM stuff, when their "thing" is to infiltrate the imperium and steal their toys. The fallen are just closer to CSM than DA. So dex CSM.

 

 

 

Grey knights were created from loyalists who escaped the traitor legions. So they should be in codex CSM.

That's fallacious. The fallen are enemies of the DA, and often pictured as CSM or working along CSM. If you don't get the proximity between those factions... Can't do anything for you.

Uhm Did I ever mention Grey Knights to be in the CSM Codex?

I am saying that the Chaos Space Marine codex is mostly focused on Traitor Legions and their Traitor Primarch.

The Loyalists who escaped the traitor legions are loyalist lol.

I was providing you with an equally fallacious example with the Grey knights. You're right though : loyalists who escaped the traitor legions are loyalists. Then Fallen who escaped the DA are traitors.

 

 

Fallacious again, The fallen are considered as traitor marines by the Imperium and the DA. They are just like any other CSM.

Nope sir, most of the Dark Angels kinda keep the fallen a secret, it's kinda where the DA are also know for, secrets.

Because of their shame, as I said. Then, an imperial who stumble on a fallen will see nothing more than a CSM.

 

ALL the "unforgiven" are raised with the sheer hatred of the fallen. Every single one of them. They try to hide the shame of their inner heresy, and to capture/kill the traitors. That's the whole point of the DA fluff.

The whole point of the DA fluff is that they only know parts not the full details, unless they are part of the 1st compagny.

Cypher again has the ability to act Loyal (while he isn't) so how exactly would he be unable to lead a Dark Angel army while he has done it allready?

That'd be pretty retarded. The DA and their successors try to capture him at all cost and are ready to make every sacrifice to do it. And now he leads some DA ? Yeah, awesome.

[The Colossus]

Regardless of his motives/origins (Huron Blackheart isnt a Traitor Legion Marine, should he be in a loyalist codex- he even had rules allowing him to take loyalist units in his army back in second ed) Cypher is considered a Renegade Space Marine, so he has no place in a loyalist codex.

[Lay]

Was pissed off that he wasn't released in the previous chaos codex. Now crossing my fingers he is finally released in this new chaos codex, and some rules on Fallen Dark Angels. Why sell a model when you have no rules for him? yeah his rules are in the white dwarf but give respect by putting him a codex.

A while ago, a list of 40k releases for 2013 was leaked. Dunno if the list has been discredited by now, but it does mention a Cypher mini. If it's actually a new model, GW might have plans for him.

[Kol Saresk]

Also in "Angels of Darkness", Cypher led a squad of Dark Angels.

 

Well, because he did exactly that, isn't this enough of a reason to let him do exactly this, in a Dark Angel codex with Dark Angel squads?

 

Cypher is, as far as I know not the only commander who follows his own path, there are enough Loyalist who do what they want.

 

Cheers,

Don't read just the first part of the sentence. Please read the whole sentence. Put's it in a whole different light than what you are trying to make it.

 

Also in "Angels of Darkness", Cypher led a squad of Dark Angels on a merry chase and while the cat was away, he broke into their fortress, killed all of their recruits, stole their gene-seed and left their own trap for them to set off. When the Dark Angels came back, they set off a virus that would have killed most of the Imperial population if they hadn't of decided to stay inside and lock the doors so the virus would run its course and the Imperials would survive while they would die a slow death for when their Power Armor ran out of power. Not exactly a defining moment to use to prove Cypher's "innocence".

 

Like I said, he is the true Renegade. Everything he does is for himself. He may help the Imperium from time to time, but him and the DA do not get along at all.

[Sception]

Elements of codex DA that the Fallen shouldn't have access to:

 

land speeders *

Attack Bikes *

Storm Bolters *

Storm Shields *

infantry portable plasma cannons *

Assault Cannons *

whirlwinds *

crusaders *

Interrogator chaplains **

Deathwing special rules **

Ravenwing **

Dark angels special characters (duh)

Scouts (Fallen don't have access to the facilities needed to reproduce)

Combat Squads ***

 

* indicates tech discovered or developed by the imperium after the fallen fled into the warp

** indicates elements developed by the dark angels after the fall specifically to hunt the fallen

*** indicates special rules unique to codex astartes tactics and organization, again developed after the fall.

 

Note that many of those elements, including the raven wing (and it's land speeders & assault bikes) and the death wing (including it's modern-armament terminators and interrogator chaplains), are the defining features of the dark angels codex, and any dark angels army that avoids those elements entirely might as well have been selected from the basic space marine book instead. Likewise, other elements, like the combat squad rules and other rules or options representing codex structure, are likewise very hard to avoid for any list pulled from codex dark angels, and yet make no sense for an army of the Fallen.

 

 

Things in the CSM book that the Fallen should have access to:

 

Autocannons and Combi Bolters on their terminators (this was the heavy gun for terminators at the time of the fall)

Cultists/guard: many fallen settle on primitive worlds to dominate the local population

Legion Organization: squad sizes up to 20 instead of combat squads.

daemonic items/upgrades: the fallen fled into the warp after the fall, spreading them through space & time & exposing them to the corruption of chaos. Many have had to survive in the warp for some time, and many are cannon chaos marines

other chaos factions: Fallen frequently in stories fight alongside other chaos marine factions. Their motives always remain intentionally mysterious, and frequently their actions seem to produce counterproductive results, calling their motives into question. However, that doesn't change the fact that when they fight alongside a larger force, that force is chaos and not loyalist. Note that this is basically exactly the same gimmick as Alpha Legion.

 

 

Even in the versions of their backstory where they were the 'good guys', they're still chased into the warp in the heresy era to survive as renegades and mercenaries. The chaos marine book as the tools to represent that. The Dark Angels book, through it's codex astartes organization and post heresy equipment that the fallen shouldn't have any access to, is very poorly suited to represent them.

 

For instance, fallen terminators. The dark angels book cannot represent them properly because dark angels come with storm bolters, which weren't developed/discovered/made accessible by the imperium until after the fallen had broken off and fled to the warp. In fact, the only equipment option available to dark angels terminators that fallen terminators would have any likelyhood of having are pair lightning claws. In addition, dark angels terminators have special rules based on being members of the deathwing that fallen terminators shouldn't have at all.

 

On the other hand, the chaos marine book can field unaligned terminators with combi weapons & autocannons - just like fallen terminators would have - and can be upgraded with 'veterans of the long war', a special rule that makes perfect sense for fallen.

 

 

That's just one example, one that is echoed when comparing tactical marines to chaos marines - the latter is a better representative of the fallen due to VotLW and legion style organization (max squad 20 instead of combat squads). Havocs are better than devastators at representing fallen because of VotLW and access to autocannons instead of plasma cannons. Likewise, cultists make more sense as a secondary troop option for fallen armies than scouts do. Etc etc.

 

 

Even if GW does put Cypher in the DA book, the CSM book will still be the better book for accurately depicting Fallen on the table.

[luckymutt]

So... If Cypher isn't in the Dex, are the rules for a generic Choas Lord condusive to represent Cypher? I've been wanting to do a Fallen army and been waiting for the rerelease of the Chaos dex for rules. Not going to be happy <_<

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

So... If Cypher isn't in the Dex, are the rules for a generic Choas Lord condusive to represent Cypher? I've been wanting to do a Fallen army and been waiting for the rerelease of the Chaos dex for rules. Not going to be happy :(

Since anyone can dual-wield pistols now, a generic "Cypher" will get to fire both his pistols :D Hopefully some of the purchasable artefacts/weird wargear are similar to Cypher's other skills.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

I think that the best way to deal with Cypher is in an allies supplement as a HQ choice for a Fallen force that can only ally with CSM and IG. Then you can have Fallen Angels as well and a whole 'allied detachment' thing to represent them. Maybe a special rule for Fallen HQ allowing them, even though they would be allies, to be the Warlord for the army.

[Rain]

They will put him in the Dark Angels codex. Just watch. GW has kind of gone off the deep end when it comes to fluff because they think that that's what sells to younger people so they will shove Cypher into the DA codex as an edgy antihero type. Even though as Vesper says it makes absolutely no sense. Not only do the Fallen never congregate in army sized contingents but most of the modern DA arsenal is either post heresy or exists entirely to exterminate the Fallen. Oh well. Maybe next edition they'll let Thousand Sons take some Thunderwolves.

[Killax]

Well as it stands now he isn't in that codex either but there is heaps of rumours about that so he might aswell be.

I am still not a 100% convinced he shouldn't be in the DA dex, on the other side, same goes for him being in the CSM dex.

 

Perhaps GW has the same dilemma, which would make him a WD character.

 

Now as for the Alpha Legion (which is brought up a lot and imho has nothing to do with the Cypher discussion) I understand why it is in the CSM codex.

The whole Legion as it stands became Traitor or got killed now they do resemble parts of The Fallen like any traitor Legion does.

 

Thanks Malisteen for your well summed up post on the items.

 

The best solution would be a specific Codex focussed on the Heresy era SM and because FW is working on something similiar I wouldn't be suprised if GW would follow this trend to in a couple of years.

 

Cheers,

[Captain Idaho]

Anyway, it does make sense Cypher is placed in the DA Codex, since he is integral to their back ground character. There might be Chaotic influence on the Fallen, but that connection can be included in the DA Codex with the rules granted by Cypher and any Fallen rules (whatever they may be).

 

Inquisitor Kryptman is a central figure in the Tyranid background. He still wouldn't make much sense as a special character in the Tyranid book.

 

Not the same thing though. Kryptman was a central figure in the battle against the Tyranids, but the actual character of the DAs is shaped by Cypher and the Fallen Angels. Take away Kryptman from the Tyranids and you still have the big bugs doing exactly what they always did for no loss. Take away Cypher and the Fallen Angels from the DA and you completely change the Chapter.

 

Besides, Kryptman isn't a Tyranid, whilst Cypher IS a DA...

 

Basically Cypher works in both Codex books.

[space wolf]

Just to throw this out there:

 

The Cypher model, has him "gunslinging" two pistols. Now supposedly per the latest DA codex rumors, there is a unit that does just that. Wouldn't it make more logical sense that GW is just recycling the model, as a leader/upgrade character for this new unit. I mean think about it, just because there is evidence of the model still being in use doesn't mean they can't retcon the fluff...

[Sception]

Thanks Malisteen for your well summed up post on the items.

Don't thank me, Killax! Your supposed to get all defensive or condescending or something! Or if you have to acknowledge my unadulterated brilliance (and I suppose sometimes it's hard not to), then you're supposed to do so in a begrudging, backhanded sort of way! ;)

 

I mean, geez. You're giving me some really mixed signals here. :)

[Excessus]

I just feel the urge to say that Cypher doesn't fit in any codex, not even the chaos one!

 

Fallen are separated in space and time(wibbly wobbly) and only gather in meaningful masses when cypher is around. Not all of them is chaos aligned, some still fight for the big E, others just hung up their armour and became a random citizen somewhere, while some try to redeem themselves of the big treachery they did.

 

What I'm hoping for is that they do a WD list with Cypher as a HQ, and a squad of fallen as troops...and possibly one more kind of unit...infiltrators maybe? A small list where no units are "over-the-top" but standard with maybe one or two special rules...

[Kol Saresk]

(wibbly wobbly)

Don't blink! Allonsy!

 

On a more serious note, I'm under the impression that at the moment, there is a huge collaboration between GW, BL and FW. GW comes out with Raptors/Warp Talons that look like FW's Mk IV and Mk III Assualt Squads thrown together with spikes, mutations and pre-made lightning trim. The new anthology, "Treacheries of the Space Marines" seems to serve as huge introduction for some of the new units to showcase themselves in the fluff. So far the Warp Talons are the only ones I haven't found. BL is making cuckoo bucks off of the Horus Heresy, and now Forgeworld is getting in. Where am I going with this? We'll probably see Cypher and the Fallen not in White Dwarf, but in whatever book FW decides to put the Fall of Caliban into. That is where we will find the list. After that, it will be like the Tyrant's Legion or the Siege of Vraks Renegade Army.

[Grim_Reaper46]

Cypher needs to belong in either a Chaos Dex or sorta EoT dex which involves unique armies like renegade guard, 13th SW, zombies and so on. His last updated rules are in a White Dwarf, but it's a pain to go finding to buy that one certain white dwarf. Plain and simple he is a renegade he can easily play in a Chaos or IG. It would make more sense such as if you had a chaos army under the units. You can allowed a couple Fallen Dark Angels but act more like independent characters freelancers. Make some special rules that would either annoy or piss off a Dark Angel player.

 

A army of Fallen Angels would only exist during per-heresy on Caliban. Just having a squad present heck a fire team of Fallen Angels will give the DA a hard on. A whole damn Dark Angels chapter will be there in a heart beat. In the recent fluff from Fallen Angels book- Spoiler Alert**

 

Before the Imperium discovered Caliban, the Lion was on a conquest to destroy all the beast and a other faction on Caliban. The other competitive faction was destroyed, and survivors were all found and killed except one; you guess it -Cypher. He is indeed was the last survivor being anonymous having a reputation for slinging his pistols from the this other faction, but infiltrated the Lions "Knights of Caliban." The Lion himself found out who he was; a mystery not only he spared his life but gave him the Office title Cypher- Keeper of traditions.

 

Regarding the Fallen Angels apparently they where in a catch 22. There was already a civil war brewing within the Dark Angels, Luther, and the Lion before the Great Crusade began. One hand some didn't like the idea Imperium pissing and replacing their traditions originally being "Knights of Caliban" & turning the planet from a gorgeous jungle into a industrial wasteland <_< hole. The other hand they were forced to turn against the Imperium for the secret was there own homeworld- Caliban was corrupted/tainted to begin with from a unique type of chaos. Once the Imperium found out they would destroy their homeworld.