Chaos Assault Marines and Raptors

[Kol Saresk]

I believe that it is reasonably safe to assume that everyone remembers when the rumors where Daemomancers, Warsmiths and Chaos Assault Marines right? I know I went on a few month Hiatus but when I left, I remember the excitement that there would be normal Chaos Assault Marines and the Raptors. The thing is, what now? I assume that the Raptors are still Raptors with the Cults and everything. Problem is, which one is the "Raptor" and which one is the "Assault Marine"? Is it the Warp Talons, who are mutated to the point that they slap on jump packs and do the Warp Spider thing(I just realized how big of a rip off that name is) who are the "Standard Assault Marines"? Or are the Raptors still the "Raptors" with their soon to be outdated concept of avian-like mutations that helped them to fly better?

 

NOTICE: This is virtually a fluff discussion. Please, please, please, please, oh please, do not bring rules into this. If your comment is "We'll have to wait until the Codex is out", that is perfectly fine. Just no rules, no Codex quotes, just fluff. Please.

[PipX]

I would consider Raptors to be more like the basis for the Warp Talons, with Warp Talons being a divergent "evolution". Raptors being more like standard assault marines with adaptations, but the Warp Talons seem to take that further as from what I've gathered they use the warp to implement attacks. I don't know if there is anything out on the fluff for Warp Talons, but maybe they are to Raptors what Possessed are to a normal CSM?

 

If the warp thing turns out to be true I would kind of see Warp Talons also as more of a mix between Warp Spiders and Mandrakes.

[minigun762]

Based entirely on this little blurb from the unit's description on GW, it appears that the talons are going to be the dedicated assault units. Fluff wise, I wonder imagine them having access to more daemonic weapons or powers whereas the raptors will serve a more traditional role, probably using short range assault weapons like flamers and melta.

 

While the Raptors carry a range of different weapon options, such as bolt pistols and chainswords, the Warp Talons feature vicious-looking lightning claws and horned helmets, as well as barbarous wings on their jump packs

[PipX]

Actually on second thought maybe Warp Talons would be considered as Chosen for Raptors, and decided to only dedicate to one type of weaponry?

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

I don't think the position of Raptors has been affected by the Warp Talons - Warp Talons are just a specific divergence, while Raptors hold the same place they always did. Kinda like how Thunderwolves are a (ridiculous) specific divergence of Wolfguard.

[Rain]

If you're asking fluffwise I'm honestly not even sure what the fluff for raptors is anymore. They are apparently just painted in legion or warband colors but are still a cult in of themselves or...something. Honestly the fluff seems to have really been bent over a table for the sake of "cool" units that "strike from the nightmare dimension of the warp" and all that jazz so just do whichever you like but it appears that Warp Talons are just raptors that have mutated to the point that they are always slightly out of phase with material reality.

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah I remember reading up on how the Raptors were separated into different cults back in the IA article days and then 4th came around and because it neither reiterated that fact nor retconned it, 4th edition turned into this big, giant, clusterbomb of... something indescribable. And then A-D-B made a little sense witht he Night Lords Trilogy describing them as mercenaries whose loyalties are prioritized as 1.)Self, 2.)Cult, 3.)Legion/Chapter/Warband and that their colors was determined by the Talonmaster/Cult Leader/Whatever-title-you-want-to-give-him and anyone who did not belong to a cult was simply an Assault Marine. Then it was like GW decided to go "Haha! We're throwing a monkey wrench into this logical line of reasoning!" and introduced the Warp Talons. I just don't know what to think about them. And saying that they're assault specific doesn't exactly help since Raptors are assault-specific anyways so I am just really confused at this point.

[Dammeron]

From what I can discern, the Raptors are the more traditional, self possessed jump pack troops we've come to know and love (whether their background will be altered in the up and coming codex remains to be seen), whereas the Warp Talons are those that more closely resemble the "old school" Chaos ethos that the new codex seems to have gone to pains to resurrect, i.e. Chaos Space Marines that aren't entirely identifiable as marines any more; those that are so tainted, so transformed by the Warp, they are now something else entirely.

 

Personally, I really quite like the idea of having two permutations: one that emphasises the character of Chaos Space Marines as it's evolved since the days of RoC (i.e. the marines themselves being more self possessed and idiosyncratic, rather than simply being tools or puppets of the Warp), another that demonstrates the other extreme (mortals entirely saturated and irredeemably transformed by the power of Chaos).

 

As to whether the Raptors still function as a distinct "cult" with noted distance from the original legions remains to be seen; it's entirely possible that this particular facet of the fluff has been shifted to the Warp Talons, who seem far more specifically "cultish" in nature.

[Ifrit446]

I know that I'm entering the fray abit late, and albeit, entering with little to no information on the Talons...But somewhere I had heard that the Talons were formed in the Night Lords Legion and are "legion-specific" to them, hence all of the terrorising armor and helmets etc.

 

Also, I like how you already updated your sig Kol Haresk :down:

[Rain]

They are mutated. It's not so much about them being assault specific, all jump pack marines are assault specific, the idea with Warp Talons is just that they have been tainted by the warp to the point that they continually phase in and out of the warp kind of like daemons far from a warp locus. Which kind of begs the question of how they don't suffer instability like daemons or need to be summoned and blah blah blah but it's just a game. Again, honestly I'm not too thrilled by all of the gimmicky comic book villain warp mutant stuff but whatever.

[Trevak Dal]

I think Warp Talons are like what the Bleeding Eyes were in ADB's Night Lords books with their natural predatory instincts multiplied several magnitudes. They are Badass Raptors, to use Borderland's terminology. Raptors are a cut above normal Chaos Space marines (as are other Cult troops), and the Warp Talons are something...more. They're at one with the warp where most creatures would be ripped apart, emerging from it to strike at their victims and and it could be argued that they are (or were) Possessed Raptors that became a truly bonded (and stable) symbiotic entity without the random mutational flare ups (represented by the chart you'd roll on for Possessed Chaos Space Marines).

 

They are not Raptors, nor Astartes, Nor Daemon. They are all three. Whoever their joined selves had been at one point no longer matters; they are now a singular being.

 

Of course that's just my opinion, I might be wrong...

 

Edit:

 

I say that they are more "stabilized Possessed Chaos Space Marines" and I'm sure the question "Well what happened to their Strength 5?" Well, I figure that the extra bit of strength was due to the recent possession causing the Astartes physiology to be in flux (along with the changing/random abilities, it could be considered to be the one 'stable' thing about possessed is that they're stronger than average marines)

 

In the process of this "stabilization" and "integration" between Daemon and Host, I figure there would be a couple months of down time, where a chrysalis is formed around the entity, perhaps under the scrutiny of Cult leaders, or perhaps with the assistance of Warpsmiths and Dark Apostles. Upon their rebirth, they are one being and given that the host in this hypothetical situation was Raptor cults-they go about doing what they did before and preyed on enemies using their newfound powers.

[Kol Saresk]

That is news to me that the Warp Talons are Night Lords specific. Which is really weird since the fluff has gone leaps and bounds to show that the Raptors have their origins in the Night Lords Legions and IIRC was partly why they were the "Raptor Legion" of 3.5 with the option to gain two more Fast Attack slots. Not too sure what to think of this new development. Only time will I guess...

 

And yeah, as soon as I saw your message, it was updated.

[Ifrit446]

I think Warp Talons are like what the Bleeding Eyes were in ADB's Night Lords books with their natural predatory instincts multiplied several magnitudes. They are Badass Raptors, to use Borderland's terminology. Raptors are a cut above normal Chaos Space marines (as are other Cult troops), and the Warp Talons are something...more. They're at one with the warp where most creatures would be ripped apart, emerging from it to strike at their victims and and it could be argued that they are (or were) Possessed Raptors that became a truly bonded (and stable) symbiotic entity without the random mutational flare ups (represented by the chart you'd roll on for Possessed Chaos Space Marines).

 

They are not Raptors, nor Astartes, Nor Daemon. They are all three. Whoever their joined selves had been at one point no longer matters; they are now a singular being.

 

Of course that's just my opinion, I might be wrong...

 

I hope you're not wrong, what you just described is the most badass thing that I've thought about in our codex so far :down:

[Trevak Dal]

Thanks man.

 

In regards to the initial question, I think that Raptors are Chaos Space Marines that are driven towards predatory flight (sort of like Dark/Evil Blood Angels-they feel more at home in the air than on the ground) the gods reward them with gifts that change them, but for all intents and purposes, they are essentially "Chaos Assault Marines" just they keep to themselves because they're the Jump-Jocks and screw all those Ground Pounders anyways.

 

Those who are REALLY dedicated, well they volunteer for possession...and after trials and many battles they get made into Warp Talons through the theoretical bonding process so that Warp Talons are *Now* the cult that Raptors previously were. Again, this is mostly spit-balling on my part.

[Emperors Immortals]

Far as I can tell, Raptors are still (or again) aerial borne assault based chaos marines mostly originating from the Night Lords chapter and who now work as mercenaries for other warbands and may or may not be a dedicated cult to a minor deity/warp presence since the time of the Heresy.

 

Warp Talons appear to be warp-mutated assault marines who have been touched by chaos and may be dedicated to Chaos Undivided and walk towards the daemonic, probably diverged from CSM and not Raptors sometime after teh Heresy.

 

So Raptors = original cult, Talons were touched by chaos after then, probably also are defecting SM and other non-raptor cult CSM. IMO, fluff-wise the are both as deadly, but the Talons can never approach the Raptors "lightness" - they are heavy boned and Raptors are light boned.

[Kol Saresk]

The cruel terror troops known as Raptors consider themselves the elite of the Chaos Space Marine warbands. Their murder squads epitomise what has become the Assault Marines of the Traitor Legions. When a pack of Warp Talons emerges from the Warp, it appears to those on the battlefield below as if daemonic warriors have literally burst out from nothingness into fiery, vengeful life.

 

If I had to go by this, the Raptors are now basic Chaos Assault Marines and the Warp Talons are the new "Raptors". To be honest, I'm not too sure what to think about this. The Raptors still have their ego-trip, but they have been relegated from "elites" to "better than average" while the Warp Talons I guess are possessed Raptors. I just don't really see why GW needed to make two identical units. Both are Fast Attack Choices and both have the exact same stats.(see pic below) I guess Raptors probably have the option to take Plasma guns and melta guns like before and Warp Talons are strictly Close Combat. I'd rather the Warp Talons be some sort of Elite unit like the Sanguinary Guard or something. Just seems like a waste to have two of the exact units in the same spot with such minor variations and most of it being in the fluff. Well, moving on, if I ever build them, I will probably get the ForgeWorld MkIV Assault Squad, steal the jump pack, take some wings form some Furies and make a twisted mirror vision of the Sanguinary Guard. Except I can have more. They're great models, but I think of Raptors needing to be aerodynamic and nothing about those jump packs even whisper aerodynamic.

 

http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=152923&d=1348443272

[AekoldHelbrass]

Let's take a look at history... As I see it of course, feel free to correct me.

 

As I understand, in Legions assault troops were elite, veterans, specialized in close combat. They had to be veterans, they had to be better than others, because their job was to strike hard into critical places, and win the victory for their Legion.

 

Than after Heresy Guilliman wrote his codex, and said that assault squad is the next step after a scout. So all the headstrong youth who think they are invincible will die fast, and only worthy enough will survive to go to tactical squads, and then only veterans will become devastators.

 

Legions fell apart, and we got warbands. Raptors become arrogant cult of elite shock troops. And there were assault chaos marines, those from traitor chapters and new recruits who were not accepted into Raptor cult.

 

Now I will reference codexes to back-up my arguments.

 

In CSM 3.5 Raptors were really good, they could take veteran skills and had Hit-and-Run builtin.

In Gavdex they still used the name "Raptor", but became simple assault marines, nothing special about them (had to use Mark of Khorne to represent they are veterans). And other codexes became more and more close-combat oriented, and before new codex arrived Space Wolve's "scouts with jump packs" are better than our "Raptors", and BA novice assault marines under priest can slaughter squad of "Raptors" in 1 turn. While Raptors from 3.5 can still make their way through both of them.

 

And now new codex arrives, representing all those aspects (kind of):

1. "Raptors" are now lower cost than skyclaws of wolves, and they are "quantity over quality" unit. In my opinion they are not worth the name "Raptor", they are simple chaos assault marines.

2. "Warp Talons". Those are elite even for Raptors, so I'd say they are Raptor Chosen.

3. And hopefully marks and veteran skill will make "Raptors" from 1 cost more but make them elite again, so they will become worth of name "Raptors". And of course model-wise they should use jumps packs of True Raptors: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_Custom...ain_873x627.jpg

[Caffeineated Chaos]

Umm, Devastators aren't vets. Space marines had to serve time as devs and assault before they can become tacs. I've read that they become devs after scouts, even before assault, so they can get used to the sounds and sights of the battle from a safer distance.

[Verythrax Draconis]

Warp Talons are 8pts more expensive, what it means? Some Daemonic weapons or powers?

[Caffeineated Chaos]

Warp Talons are 8pts more expensive, what it means? Some Daemonic weapons or powers?

I think they might get a random power chart like the new possessed. And Lightning Claws.

 

Btw has anyone considered how nasty warp talons would be w/ vets of long war and MoS? That'd mean against loyalist marines, we'd have I5 AP3 reroll wounds, and first round of close combat reroll attacks.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Warp Talons are 8pts more expensive, what it means? Some Daemonic weapons or powers?

I think they might get a random power chart like the new possessed. And Lightning Claws.

 

Btw has anyone considered how nasty warp talons would be w/ vets of long war and MoS? That'd mean against loyalist marines, we'd have I5 AP3 reroll wounds, and first round of close combat reroll attacks.

 

But at what cost?

[Kol Saresk]

Another 8 pts a model and a non-variable weapon load out. Quite possibly the most locked in unit out of the Codex I have seen yet.

[Xenith]

Raptors are what you make of them.

 

Do you want them to be mercenaries, or regular assault marines in a less corrupt legion/chapter?

 

The warp effects everyone in different ways.

 

Raptors were always jump pack marines (who were rare during the heresy) whose arrogance at being pack equipped made them see themselves as above others. How that works in your warbands fluff is up to you: Have they dedicated themselves to a god?

[AekoldHelbrass]

Umm, Devastators aren't vets. Space marines had to serve time as devs and assault before they can become tacs. I've read that they become devs after scouts, even before assault, so they can get used to the sounds and sights of the battle from a safer distance.

 

Well... Looks like I'm spending too much time with BA and SW, who has veteran devastators....

[Phoros]

I think that the Warp Talons might make a shooting/area-of-effect attack with the Blind rule when they Deep Strike?