Did Lorgar not get the memo?

[Gree]

I'm sorry if this has been covered before, but I could find no mention of it on any search engine here. But this queston has been bugging me.

 

The Great Crusade’s atheistic beliefs were not a secret at all. So why didn’t Lorgar get the memo? I find it very hard to believe that Lorgar never noticed for decades on end the rest of the Imperium stamping out religion and officially condemning it. I find it rather hard to believe none of his brothers ever came to talk to him about it.

 

Or was Lorgar just choosing to be willfully ignorant of the blindingly obvious?

[Ubermensch Commander]

I'm sorry if this has been covered before, but I could find no mention of it on any search engine here. But this queston has been bugging me.

 

The Great Crusade’s atheistic beliefs were not a secret at all. So why didn’t Lorgar get the memo? I find it very hard to believe that Lorgar never noticed for decades on end the rest of the Imperium stamping out religion and officially condemning it. I find it rather hard to believe none of his brothers ever came to talk to him about it.

 

Or was Lorgar just choosing to be willfully ignorant of the blindingly obvious?

 

The second part. His father, his liege lord, his god, The Big E himself, had even personally refuted it to Lorgar according to their conversation in The First Heretic if my memory serves.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Lorgar changed the definition of god from deity in heaven (or equality such as Olympus) to a being who eclipses the power of all of those around him. However, that was... not exactly the brightest move and he failed to communicate his intent to the rest of the Imperium. As a result, TFH.

[Rain]

Well, Lorgar's point was that the Emperor's denial of godhood did not actually deny his godhood. In other words, if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it doesn't matter if it's wearing a nametag that says "Hi! My name is Not a Duck". This is actually a pretty valid point as the Emperor essentially is a god in the 40k sense of it, and Lorgar who always saw religion as a source of identity, unity, and metaphysical meaning thought that he really hit the jackpot as here was proof of his ideas, here was the very being with the power and vision that vindicated Lorgar's fanaticism and conviction and then--whoops that being ends up thinking that ole gold-skin is kind of a schmuck. Needless to say Lorgar was a little distraught.

[Theodus]

The way I see it, is it's a sort of grey area between the two - there's a lot of interlocking factors that are difficult to account for. Most of all I think we have to remember it is a part of who Lorgar is. Each of the Primarchs represent aspects of the Emperor, the Emperor used religious ideology himself earlier in his life, he himself had been seen as Saint George among other figures. This use of divinity as a tool for use was represented in Lorgar. Now we have to factor in where Lorgar was raised, on a planet that was deeply religious and as part of that religious system. Religion and believing in something almost blindly had been bred into, it was all he knew. Now a great figure arrives, he tells Lorgar that he is his father and that Lorgar shall be in command of a Legion of super-soldiers during a campaign to reunite humanity. This man can perform what Lorgar understands as miracles, he can do what divine beings can do.

 

It's unclear if at this point Lorgar and the Emperor had a talk about the status of the Emperor's divinity, but I'm guessing that they did not. Ergo when the Emperor reels him in later - rather more forcefully it's difficult for Lorgar to understand. He believes in the Emperor, with all his heart and nothing - not the condemnation of his Brothers, nor the word of his Father can convince him otherwise. The Emperor says he is not a God, what kind of a majestic being could be so mighty but yet so modest as to deny his own divinity? Because Lorgar has belief, what he sees the Emperor as is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

To Lorgar the Emperor is a God in all but name, assuming the title is just a formality and one that he can't understand why he won't accept. Obviously, finally his faith is transferred onto those Chaos Gods who will accept his venerations. From my reading the entirety of the way through it's complex, Lorgar doesn't understand, it is literally against all he knows and his own biology to be able to understand why the Emperor cannot seem to see what is obvious. It doesn't matter what his brothers say against it, he like as not was not explained to at the beginning why the Imperial truth was so vital by the Emperor and by the time it was hammered home to him it was not something he could accept, it had become as natural to him as breathing or as flying to The Angel.

 

I don't think Lorgar was just wilfully ignorant his interactions with divinity and the Emperor changed his understanding of things, he was a zealot - so was the Emperor, only the Emperor was a zealot on his own terms.

[Wade Garrett]

The Emperor didn't do himself any favors when he attended several weeks of religous festivals the people of Colchis threw in his honor after he and Magnus landed, and never thought to bring up "By the way, I am not a god and all this devotion and being worshipped makes me a bit uncomfortable." Although since by that point he'd had to deal with Angron and Curze, Lorgar's planet of Emperor Worship was probably seen as a nice relaxing break.

 

It's stated in one of the other Heresy novels (the exact one escapes me ATM) that while the Emperor stamped out religion in favor of the Imperial Truth, he tolerated different beliefs among his sons. For instance, the Space Wolves refer to him as the Allfather, think he'll take them to his side if they fall in battle, and also believe in Heaven (Uppland) and Hell (the Underverse). So the Word Bearer's Legion Cult wasn't the problem, it was when they started spreading it to every planet they conquered (which was slowing their progress) that the Emperor decided to be an enormous jerk about the whole thing.

[Legatus]

Well, the story did make more sense when the Emperor did not have an atheistic message and when he had no problem with Lorgar spreading the Imperial cult and only chastised him for not liberating enough worlds.

[Siege40k]

I will point out that the big E didn't say "Hey, I'm Saint George"....he was simply the guy who slew the dragon...and then those who witnessed it named him Saint.

 

The Emperors issue was that, throughout history, he never corrected those who marked him as devine....be it the English or Lorgar.

[Blood Angel Scout]

It is the principle of The Last Church short story set at the beginning of the Great Crusade, possibly as the primarch project is being instigated. Forgive if this is considered to contain spoilers:

 

Basically priest said he was saved from death by "God" , Emperor says "not "God", it was me and lack of knowledge/understanding made you believe in a higher power", priest realises the truth and chooses to die with his beliefs as a final :) you to the Emperor.

 

That is the basis of the Emperor's Imperial Truth, explain the "myth" through scientific proof> logic over emotion, reduce the source of strength to the entities of Chaos.

 

That's the key to it all though, the Emperor's perception of what the Chaos "Gods" are to him, a tangible enemy to combat whereas the majority of humanity still live in the fear of Old Night, superstitions or rituals, and also the Chaos "Gods" view of him as the Anathema, the object they cannot control, which could be intrepretated as their recognition of the threat to their existence.

 

Lorgar's been brought up in a religious culture therefore, those influences around him shape his perceptions of his "visions" to that of an arriving "God" and not the arrival of his father> a similar misunderstanding to the priest in the Last Church.

 

Yet therin lie another of the differences between humans and primarchs, the human lies down in the flames because there is no such thing as a "god", the primarch lights the fires of the Heresy

[thelastonestanding]

I will point out that the big E didn't say "Hey, I'm Saint George"....he was simply the guy who slew the dragon...and then those who witnessed it named him Saint.

 

The Emperors issue was that, throughout history, he never corrected those who marked him as devine....be it the English or Lorgar.

 

This doesn't pertain to the discussion at all, and is just me being pedantic, but Saint George wasn't English and he slew the dragon in the middle east. We just happen to have him as our patron saint now.

 

But in regards to Lorgar, I think he just believed what he wanted to believe. Even when the Emperor made it pretty clear he wasn't a god, Lorgar just took it as more proof that he was... because Lorgar's stupid like that. I can't see it being that big an issue until their veneration of the Emperor began to take a toll on the pace of the crusade, hence the beat down.

[A D-B]

EDIT: For clarity.

 

I'm sorry if this has been covered before, but I could find no mention of it on any search engine here. But this queston has been bugging me.

 

The Great Crusade’s atheistic beliefs were not a secret at all. So why didn’t Lorgar get the memo? I find it very hard to believe that Lorgar never noticed for decades on end the rest of the Imperium stamping out religion and officially condemning it. I find it rather hard to believe none of his brothers ever came to talk to him about it.

 

Or was Lorgar just choosing to be willfully ignorant of the blindingly obvious?

 

You can break it down like that, or any one of a hundred ways. But at its core, it's even simpler. Yeah, it has a great deal of philosophical potential behind it, and yeah, the Imperium's scale means expeditionary fleets were largely isolated and able to do whatever they want. But even simpler than all of the metaphysics and the nature of the warp and the philosophy of religion is a simpler truth:

 

Lorgar was religious. He thought he was right, and everyone else was wrong and/or ignorant. That's what a lot of religious people think (especially in power), because that's what it means to believe something. I'm not saying anyone who believes is automatically a douche about it. Far from it. But that's what belief is: it's saying "I believe X is the truth, not A, B or C."

 

I'm not being flippant, or snide, or disrespectful. It's literally the same thing we see religious leaders doing now, and throughout history. The belief your religion is "right" empowering and entitling you to force that religion's beliefs and laws on other people. Republican politics are dominated right now by Mitt Romney's (and the general Christian) beliefs. It doesn't matter that some of their policies of governance are based on their own religious laws, because they think their religious laws are right, and everyone should follow them whether they heed the religion or not.

 

Look at the movements and protests demanding Sharia Law in non-Muslim countries, or the famous "Behead those who insult the Prophet" posters. That's another slice of the attitude that it just doesn't matter what non-believers think. The non-believers are wrong, so enlightenment will be imposed on them, no matter what, because the believers are certain they're right.

 

Look at the Crusades, historically speaking. Look at something like the Albigensian Crusade, with the Massacre at Beziers. 20,000 people slaughtered, under the orders of the pope's representative, with the words: "Kill them all, God will know His own." Murdering them all meant nothing - it didn't matter what the victims believed, all that mattered was that the Catholic Church believed its stance was right, so God would look kindly on any of the people massacred unfairly. The reality, of course, is that 20,000 people were murdered over fiction.

 

In this light - since this is how religion, politics and war have always mixed - it's much easier to understand Lorgar's perspective. Like every religious leader, he thought he was right. You could even argue he had more evidence than any religious leader in the history of humanity, since by any stretch of the imagination, it's hard to argue that the Emperor isn't a god. Sure, we have the rulebooks. But in context? A creature so powerful it genetically engineers the conquest of the whole galaxy and almost no living being can look at it because of the agonising radiance of its presence?

 

There's a man in the States with a very good chance of running the most powerful nation in the world, and he believes God lives on a planet called Kolob, and that God Himself changed his mind about the purity of black people only 40 years ago. Compare that with Lorgar, who was raised with the psychic knowledge that a being powerful enough to be a god was real, then he met that god, and was given an army of invincible angels to conquer the galaxy in that god's name. One of these men has every reason to believe his faith and impose it on others.

[Henricus Divis]

This kind of arrogance is why I've always :D hated Lorgar. Damned fanatic with no redeeming features who gets told he's wrong has a tantrum like a toddler, then starts a civil war which almost destroys the galaxy because he was told no by daddy. The Emperor should have given up on him as a lost cause when he found him on Colchis and wiped the planet cleaned. Rant over.

[Captain Semper]

Having no redeeming features could also be a reason for liking him. :D I'm not saying he doesn't have any - mind you....

[Henricus Divis]

A cookie if you can name five redeeming features of Lorgar, by which I mean features which would be consider good by a Loyalist not a Traitor :D

[Captain Semper]

Well, for one thing he takes his time with the Crusade, trying to convert people rather than slaughter them as other (even loyalist) Legions were doing in case of disagreement. That makes him a bit more human and humane... He also makes sure they continue to be loyal after he leaves by creating a stable and pius society if Monarchia is anything to go by.

 

But I like this challenge and I'll revert when I'm off work! :D

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

1. He was loyal to his father, in hs own way.

2. He was loyal to his soldiers.

3. He left the planets he conquored loyal to the Emperor and not piles of rubble and corpses.

4. He went to outside sources (magnus) after being rejected by his father, only to be turned away. (imagine how things might have been different if magnus just talked to him about the creatures of the warp, and not left him like a arrogant prick). he could have just went straight to "omicidal maniac"

5. When he found a new faith, he attempted to enlighten his brothers about it. he could have squandered the powers solely on himself.

 

WLK

[Henricus Divis]

Excellent points however the UM already did all that without the religious fanaticism but as promised a cookie: http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?um=1&hl...9,r:4,s:0,i:149

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Excellent points however the UM already did all that without the religious fanaticism but as promised a cookie: http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?um=1&hl...9,r:4,s:0,i:149

 

well you didnt say anything not covered by another legion, just 5 redeeming features about Lorgar. (and Guilliman did number 5?!! kidding, i guess the codex may be seen in that light)

 

and thanks, NOM NOM NOM NOM NOM

 

WLK

[Captain Semper]

The Wolf stole my cookie! :lol:

 

:P

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

The Wolf stole my cookie! :lol:

 

:P

 

no, technically i EARNED your cookie.

 

you were given a simple task, and in true dark angel fashion, decided to complete in under your own conditions. I simply came in and did the task required, thus EARNing cookie goodness!

 

:)

 

WLK

[NDC-OSPREY]

Someone has put it down already but I compiled this list of redeeming features so I'm going to write them ^_^

 

1. He originally appears to be one of the more caring and humane Primarch's, who has time and genuine affection for humans and the marines under his command, alongside Vulkan and perhaps Russ and Guilliman. He loses this trait once dedicated to Chaos but the Imperial Lorgar has this trait IMO.

 

2. Leaves worlds functional, intact and able to be of use to the Imperium

 

3. Is hugely loyal to the Emperor, the Imperium and Humanity in general. Lets not forget he wants to 'enlighten' humanity of Chaos and see's Chaos as the power that can save Humanity from extinction

 

4. Has a desire to improve himself, and humanity. He just see's faith and religion as the best vehicle for this due to his upbringing. The intent can't be seen as bad!

 

5. Inspires great Loyalty and belief from others

 

6. He gave Guilliman and good smack (it was a sucker punch but who cares :D )

 

I personally find Lorgar to be one of the more interesting and human Primarch's, especially after reading First Heretic. Now the heresy wasn't a good thing at all, but many of his intentions where good.

[Billuriye]

Here is to hope that he'll get the memo second time since he's been duped by warp and the his craving for enlightened humanity wasn't delivered and no Chaos Gods give a crap. I guess that's why he's screaming under burning sky "BWAAAH Horus ded" or "i was promised".

[Captain Juan Juarez]

The thing about Lorgar that really bugged me, other than his existence, is that he tried to use "Denying divinity is a sign of the divine.." as evidence that the Emperor was a God/Divine Being/Big Celestial Hoo-Haa.

 

That sort of logic feels so playground that I'm tempted to pull my wifes pigtails - except she doesn't have any, because she's not real.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

The thing about Lorgar that really bugged me, other than his existence, is that he tried to use "Denying divinity is a sign of the divine.." as evidence that the Emperor was a God/Divine Being/Big Celestial Hoo-Haa.

 

That sort of logic feels so playground that I'm tempted to pull my wifes pigtails - except she doesn't have any, because she's not real.

 

this part never bothered me, but i grew up Catholic and was force fed the "works in mysterious ways" crap.

 

now imagine a being that does godly things try pulling that. its more believable to me.

 

WLK

[A D-B]

The thing about Lorgar that really bugged me, other than his existence, is that he tried to use "Denying divinity is a sign of the divine.." as evidence that the Emperor was a God/Divine Being/Big Celestial Hoo-Haa.

 

That sort of logic feels so playground that I'm tempted to pull my wifes pigtails - except she doesn't have any, because she's not real.

 

That's the only slice of Lorgar's reasoning that didn't sound too credible to me (or rather, that I couldn't quite get my head around, either). I had to mention it a little in The First Heretic so as not to conflict with previous stuff (I think it gets a single sentence), but it was always something I struggled to really get a handle on, whereas the rest of his reasoning made sense to me, in the context of the setting.