Did Lorgar not get the memo?

[Captain Juan Juarez]

The thing about Lorgar that really bugged me, other than his existence, is that he tried to use "Denying divinity is a sign of the divine.." as evidence that the Emperor was a God/Divine Being/Big Celestial Hoo-Haa.

 

That sort of logic feels so playground that I'm tempted to pull my wifes pigtails - except she doesn't have any, because she's not real.

 

That's the only slice of Lorgar's reasoning that didn't sound too credible to me (or rather, that I couldn't quite get my head around, either). I had to mention it a little in The First Heretic so as not to conflict with previous stuff (I think it gets a single sentence), but it was always something I struggled to really get a handle on, whereas the rest of his reasoning made sense to me, in the context of the setting.

 

I think the big problem with it is that it doesn't give any sort of basis for it in the thinking displayed by Lorgar, nothing about how he thinks it's one of many signs and instead seems to be some major idea that people should look and say "Wow, you're right!".

 

It's like the scolded child having to get the last word, even if it's just saying something petty or nonsensical and I suppose given the events regarding Monarchia - memory don't fail me now! - that's exactly how it could easily be seen though the cold light of history.

 

It still really bugs me though.

[E.G.J.]

The thing about Lorgar that really bugged me, other than his existence, is that he tried to use "Denying divinity is a sign of the divine.." as evidence that the Emperor was a God/Divine Being/Big Celestial Hoo-Haa.

 

That sort of logic feels so playground that I'm tempted to pull my wifes pigtails - except she doesn't have any, because she's not real.

 

That's the only slice of Lorgar's reasoning that didn't sound too credible to me (or rather, that I couldn't quite get my head around, either). I had to mention it a little in The First Heretic so as not to conflict with previous stuff (I think it gets a single sentence), but it was always something I struggled to really get a handle on, whereas the rest of his reasoning made sense to me, in the context of the setting.

 

I think the big problem with it is that it doesn't give any sort of basis for it in the thinking displayed by Lorgar, nothing about how he thinks it's one of many signs and instead seems to be some major idea that people should look and say "Wow, you're right!".

 

It's like the scolded child having to get the last word, even if it's just saying something petty or nonsensical and I suppose given the events regarding Monarchia - memory don't fail me now! - that's exactly how it could easily be seen though the cold light of history.

 

It still really bugs me though.

 

Provided I am following the discussion correctly, I can't say that I have a problem with Lorgar's logic. As has been pointed out, Lorgar is religious and therefore if he is looking at the Emperor as a god and worshiping him as such, then to Lorgar that is a foregone conclusion. The Emperor is a god. Therefore if the Emperor was to say he actually was divine, then Lorgar would be right. If the Emperor denied his divinity, then to Lorgar that would simply be understood as something a perfect being would do and therefore he would still be right. If the Emperor's divinity and perfect nature is understood as absolute truth (as Lorgar sees it), then everything the Emperor does is confirmation of that fact even if he denies it.

 

As an analogy, consider Julius Caesar. He was lauded, honored, given consul-ships, dictatorship, and finally was made dictator for life. At each juncture he denied that he wanted to be tyrant or king and argued that he was acting in the best interest of the Republic (i.e. preserving/saving the Republic). In spite of his denials several senators believed otherwise, decided to conspire against him, and we all know how that turned out. Now, if Lorgar had been a Roman senator (let's call him Lorgatus), then the most analogous position he would have taken would be that whatever Caesar did, he did for the good of the Republic. Therefore, if he said that he wasn't trying to be tyrant, then not only was that true, but he must have done so for the good of the Republic. If Caesar actually had become a tyrant, then Lorgar would have reasoned that he did so to preserve the Republic because only one man could hold it together (and not, for example, because of personal ambition). If, as actually happened, Caesar was assassinated, Lorgar would likely have been one of the first people to suggest deification as a means to make Caesar a symbol or embodiment of the preservation the Republic. He would also likely have accused the conspirators of wishing the end of the Republic.

 

In any case, similar to how "Roman" Lorgar sees everything Caesar does as striving to preserve the Republic, so everything the actual Lorgar sees the Emperor do confirms his divinity. The problem for Lorgar is that this seemingly unassailable "truth" is shattered at Monarchia. It would be as though Caesar became tyrant and told "Roman" Lorgar that he spits and urinates on everything the Republic stands for....to me this revelation of the truth, or the shattering of Lorgar's truth, is at the heart of his quest for a "new" truth, but also what drives him to exact a form of vengeance or penance on those who took his previous reality away from him.

 

I hope I didn't misinterpret what you guys were talking about. If so, apologies for the verbage.

[Azarias]

E.G.J. summarizes things perfectly. What we have in Lorgar is an example of the fundamentalist's logic, yes, but we have its positive elements as well as its negative ones. After all, Lorgar sincerely believes that the truth of the universe lies in a metaphysical relationship. And his pursuit of that aim is selfless, in that he's doing it not for himself, but because he believes it is right and good. If you look at the epigraph to Aurelian, you see this logic play out. He's merely seeking the truth, and whatever results from its pursuit is necessary. If he ascends to daemonhood, it's not because he was ambitious. If a world must burn, it's not because he's being malicious. It's what the truth demands. If he ignores the antitheistic Imperial Truth, it's not because he's being purposefully and intentionally naive, but because he's so focused on the idea of the Emperor as a god that to suggest otherwise would be, to him, puerile.

 

You can see something similar with the stances made by the Catholic Church and, say, their views on female clergy. The people who say that they need to modernize fail to understand the way that the Church views itself: it has no need to conform to the logic of the mundane world, because the mundane world will pass away. The Church, with its own sense of logic, theology, and understanding, views itself as eternally present. Hence, dogma like the virgin birth, the trinity, and an all-male priesthood are not to be altered by developments in western culture, such as feminism.

 

As I've said elsewhere, it's the multitude of viewpoints that gives WH40K any sense of merit beyond mere escapist pleasure. Lorgar's theism is given the same amount of attention and legitimacy as Curze's dichotomy of nihilism and draconian justice and Guilleman's secular meritocracy. Angron's rage is not a one-dimensional foaming-at-the-mouth tantrum, but rather a psychologically complex and personally understandable reaction to his own life. Leman Russ is barbaric, sure, but sincerely so, and with a charismatic exuberance and a primal joi de vivre. To view any of these stances as reprehensible or "arrogant" is not necessarily incorrect, as such a judgment merely reflects your own biases. But, and I think this is the really important part of the Horus Heresy series as a whole, we have to understand that each Primarch is given a sense of legitimacy that allows for a plurality of views and opinions, each equally legitimate in their own right. Now part of this is the nature of the setting (e.g., Lorgar's right: there are gods), but part of this is the writers' doing - though some have done it better than others.

 

As a concluding aside, if anyone must attack Lorgar's viewpoint (or any other Primarch's for that matter) then don't engage in a reductio absurdem by comparing him to a spoiled child. It cheapens the portrayal and it's a misleading description. Rather, examine his view as something serious. And only then make serious critiques.

[Henricus Divis]

The Wolf stole my cookie! B)

 

;)

 

Apologies here is your cookie: http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?start=108&a...r:9,s:108,i:102

[Blood Angel Scout]

As a concluding aside, if anyone must attack Lorgar's viewpoint (or any other Primarch's for that matter) then don't engage in a reductio absurdem by comparing him to a spoiled child. It cheapens the portrayal and it's a misleading description. Rather, examine his view as something serious. And only then make serious critiques.

 

I understand your point about it cheapening the portrayl of their acts, but essentially the traits shown by the traitorious primarchs are the acts of a spoiled child in that they are used to getting their own way and when they are presented with a scenario/challenge to their authority that doesn't conform with their expectations, their reaction is to go in a "huff" and focus their talents on trying to get their own way until it becomes their only goal, instead of taking on board the message to adapt, grow..."mature"?

 

Come to think of it, are there any examples of the Loyalist primarchs who were admonished in a similar fashion? Only comparisons I can think of in this instance (at the moment) is where the primarchs are presented with this type of scenario/challenge to their authority came from those within their legion i.e. Amit/Sanguinius, Sigismund/Dorn, Thiel/Guilliman or the chaplain the Lion kills as a more extreme example.

 

I've more to flesh out in this post but attentions of a 4 month old mean I've not got the time to do so just now

[Kol Saresk]

So what would that make the Loyalists? The momma boys who kept their skeletons in the closet?

[Lord_Caerolion]

This kind of arrogance is why I've always :) hated Lorgar. Damned fanatic with no redeeming features who gets told he's wrong has a tantrum like a toddler, then starts a civil war which almost destroys the galaxy because he was told no by daddy. The Emperor should have given up on him as a lost cause when he found him on Colchis and wiped the planet cleaned. Rant over.

 

My favourite way of explaining it: Imagine you're the Pope. Now, after managing to lead a massive war, and turn the entire world to your religion, God actually arrives, proving you right. Not only that, he tells you that you're actually his son, and that he wants you to spread his message across the stars. You lead the planet in weekslong celebrations, during which God says absolutely nothing to mention that he's actually not a God. Suddenly, after years of crusading, God gets your least-favourite brother to smash up your prized possession, and says "That's for not realising I'm not a God! Go be secular, you've wasted your entire life. Now, go be a good boy and imitate the brother I've just given you every reason imaginable to hate."

 

You're honestly telling me that you wouldn't be absolutely shattered in that situation? Literally everything Lorgar thought about his place in life has just been irrevocably destroyed, everything he was so certain about turning out to be an utter lie.

[Kol Saresk]

This kind of arrogance is why I've always :) hated Lorgar. Damned fanatic with no redeeming features who gets told he's wrong has a tantrum like a toddler, then starts a civil war which almost destroys the galaxy because he was told no by daddy. The Emperor should have given up on him as a lost cause when he found him on Colchis and wiped the planet cleaned. Rant over.

 

My favourite way of explaining it: Imagine you're the Pope. Now, after managing to lead a massive war, and turn the entire world to your religion, God actually arrives, proving you right. Not only that, he tells you that you're actually his son, and that he wants you to spread his message across the stars. You lead the planet in weekslong celebrations, during which God says absolutely nothing to mention that he's actually not a God. Suddenly, after years of crusading, God gets your least-favourite brother to smash up your prized possession, and says "That's for not realising I'm not a God! Go be secular, you've wasted your entire life. Now, go be a good boy and imitate the brother I've just given you every reason imaginable to hate."

 

You're honestly telling me that you wouldn't be absolutely shattered in that situation? Literally everything Lorgar thought about his place in life has just been irrevocably destroyed, everything he was so certain about turning out to be an utter lie.

No, of course not! Who would be upset about the fact that they sweated and bled over a lie for decades, maybe even centuries? That they slaughtered and murdered innocents for a lie?

[A D-B]

E.G.J. summarizes things perfectly. What we have in Lorgar is an example of the fundamentalist's logic, yes, but we have its positive elements as well as its negative ones. After all, Lorgar sincerely believes that the truth of the universe lies in a metaphysical relationship. And his pursuit of that aim is selfless, in that he's doing it not for himself, but because he believes it is right and good. If you look at the epigraph to Aurelian, you see this logic play out. He's merely seeking the truth, and whatever results from its pursuit is necessary. If he ascends to daemonhood, it's not because he was ambitious. If a world must burn, it's not because he's being malicious. It's what the truth demands. If he ignores the antitheistic Imperial Truth, it's not because he's being purposefully and intentionally naive, but because he's so focused on the idea of the Emperor as a god that to suggest otherwise would be, to him, puerile.

 

You can see something similar with the stances made by the Catholic Church and, say, their views on female clergy. The people who say that they need to modernize fail to understand the way that the Church views itself: it has no need to conform to the logic of the mundane world, because the mundane world will pass away. The Church, with its own sense of logic, theology, and understanding, views itself as eternally present. Hence, dogma like the virgin birth, the trinity, and an all-male priesthood are not to be altered by developments in western culture, such as feminism.

 

As I've said elsewhere, it's the multitude of viewpoints that gives WH40K any sense of merit beyond mere escapist pleasure. Lorgar's theism is given the same amount of attention and legitimacy as Curze's dichotomy of nihilism and draconian justice and Guilleman's secular meritocracy. Angron's rage is not a one-dimensional foaming-at-the-mouth tantrum, but rather a psychologically complex and personally understandable reaction to his own life. Leman Russ is barbaric, sure, but sincerely so, and with a charismatic exuberance and a primal joi de vivre. To view any of these stances as reprehensible or "arrogant" is not necessarily incorrect, as such a judgment merely reflects your own biases. But, and I think this is the really important part of the Horus Heresy series as a whole, we have to understand that each Primarch is given a sense of legitimacy that allows for a plurality of views and opinions, each equally legitimate in their own right. Now part of this is the nature of the setting (e.g., Lorgar's right: there are gods), but part of this is the writers' doing - though some have done it better than others.

 

As a concluding aside, if anyone must attack Lorgar's viewpoint (or any other Primarch's for that matter) then don't engage in a reductio absurdem by comparing him to a spoiled child. It cheapens the portrayal and it's a misleading description. Rather, examine his view as something serious. And only then make serious critiques.

 

Beautiful stuff.

 

I hesitated to throw in that "Only the divine deny their divinity" line, but I couldn't entirely ignore previous lore on the subject (it is, in fact, a direct quote from previous lore). I just toned down its presence in the overall deal; it's an absolutely minimal slice of his complete reasoning in The First Heretic, Aurelian, and Betrayer.

 

On a very similar note, this is why I can't stand the "multiple personalities" take on Konrad Curze - for the exact reasons you detailed, Azarias. It cheapens the source material (Heart of Darkness; Apocalypse Now) and it cheapens the character's own narrative arc. Curze does what he does because he believes it's necessary, and the only way to achieve achieve the difficult ambitions he's aiming for. He does what he does because it matches his understanding of human psychology and morality, and how humanity as a gathering of sentient animals can most effectively be herded, controlled, and ruled. That's what led to his downfall, his madness, his vulnerability to Chaos. He doesn't do it because it's easy, or funny, or he overtly enjoys it with a big smile.

 

In a universe where thinking those things (and doing them...) leaves you hollow and vulnerable to the predations of malicious gods, he was a ripe and tempting target.

 

Just saying "There was Chaos Curze and Good Curze" cheapens the entire process so badly it almost makes me choke.

[Henricus Divis]

This kind of arrogance is why I've always :tu: hated Lorgar. Damned fanatic with no redeeming features who gets told he's wrong has a tantrum like a toddler, then starts a civil war which almost destroys the galaxy because he was told no by daddy. The Emperor should have given up on him as a lost cause when he found him on Colchis and wiped the planet cleaned. Rant over.

 

My favourite way of explaining it: Imagine you're the Pope. Now, after managing to lead a massive war, and turn the entire world to your religion, God actually arrives, proving you right. Not only that, he tells you that you're actually his son, and that he wants you to spread his message across the stars. You lead the planet in weekslong celebrations, during which God says absolutely nothing to mention that he's actually not a God. Suddenly, after years of crusading, God gets your least-favourite brother to smash up your prized possession, and says "That's for not realising I'm not a God! Go be secular, you've wasted your entire life. Now, go be a good boy and imitate the brother I've just given you every reason imaginable to hate."

 

You're honestly telling me that you wouldn't be absolutely shattered in that situation? Literally everything Lorgar thought about his place in life has just been irrevocably destroyed, everything he was so certain about turning out to be an utter lie.

No, of course not! Who would be upset about the fact that they sweated and bled over a lie for decades, maybe even centuries? That they slaughtered and murdered innocents for a lie?

 

There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.....

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

This kind of arrogance is why I've always :P hated Lorgar. Damned fanatic with no redeeming features who gets told he's wrong has a tantrum like a toddler, then starts a civil war which almost destroys the galaxy because he was told no by daddy. The Emperor should have given up on him as a lost cause when he found him on Colchis and wiped the planet cleaned. Rant over.

 

My favourite way of explaining it: Imagine you're the Pope. Now, after managing to lead a massive war, and turn the entire world to your religion, God actually arrives, proving you right. Not only that, he tells you that you're actually his son, and that he wants you to spread his message across the stars. You lead the planet in weekslong celebrations, during which God says absolutely nothing to mention that he's actually not a God. Suddenly, after years of crusading, God gets your least-favourite brother to smash up your prized possession, and says "That's for not realising I'm not a God! Go be secular, you've wasted your entire life. Now, go be a good boy and imitate the brother I've just given you every reason imaginable to hate."

 

You're honestly telling me that you wouldn't be absolutely shattered in that situation? Literally everything Lorgar thought about his place in life has just been irrevocably destroyed, everything he was so certain about turning out to be an utter lie.

Thank you. Thank you so very much ;)

[Captain Idaho]

See, I don't think Lorgar really is upset with the Emperor as much as he lets on. He knows the Emperor never lied to him.

 

Lorgar, for years (many, many years) was been going around utterly convinced of something fundamental to his and everyones existance, telling others about that fundamental element and dedicating everything he ever was or will be to propagating that element. He did this in the face of his peers believing otherwise, thinking he was right.

 

Now imagine finding out, publicly, and by that I mean in front of billions, that you are wrong. That everything you did was wrong and unwanted. That you were the fool. That you didn't know better in the end and just should have listened.

 

That would ruin any man or Primarch.

 

When Lorgar went and looked for divinity, he was actually looking for redemption and vindication. Not from the Gods themselves but from everyone who judged him wrong after the Emperor's censure.

 

Now, when Lorgar responded with "only the truly divine deny their divinity", it wasn't petulance, it was furthering "the lie", his lie. A lie created to protect him from judgement. It was desparate but not unreasable when you put it against the back ground of what I said above.

[Billuriye]

See, I don't think Lorgar really is upset with the Emperor as much as he lets on. He knows the Emperor never lied to him.

 

Lorgar, for years (many, many years) was been going around utterly convinced of something fundamental to his and everyones existance, telling others about that fundamental element and dedicating everything he ever was or will be to propagating that element. He did this in the face of his peers believing otherwise, thinking he was right.

 

Now imagine finding out, publicly, and by that I mean in front of billions, that you are wrong. That everything you did was wrong and unwanted. That you were the fool. That you didn't know better in the end and just should have listened.

 

That would ruin any man or Primarch.

 

When Lorgar went and looked for divinity, he was actually looking for redemption and vindication. Not from the Gods themselves but from everyone who judged him wrong after the Emperor's censure.

 

Now, when Lorgar responded with "only the truly divine deny their divinity", it wasn't petulance, it was furthering "the lie", his lie. A lie created to protect him from judgement. It was desparate but not unreasable when you put it against the back ground of what I said above.

 

Yup. Lorgar is pathetic. From his bitter and unwarranted projections on Guilliman to soppy "dad's gonna kill me".

[A D-B]

Deleted, yo.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@Billuriye: I have to ask, are you deliberately being close minded on Lorgar, or have you just not read/listened to the latest material on him?

 

Because before his transformation in the HH series, i would have agreed with you. But after actually getting his side of the story, I've been forced to change my long held opinion on him.

 

WLK

[Rain]

Thing is, Lorgar was kinda, y'know, right. I mean the Emperor really was a god in the setting definition of it. His psychic presence guides ships and keeps Chaos at bay, he can kill superhumans with a mere thought, and he orchestrated and led the conquest of most of the galaxy. This is where the comparison to real world religion breaks down I think. Yes, as ADB said, people have done all kinds of nastiness for all kinds of poorly supported reasons, but their god was never actually there with them giving obvious and unambiguous evidence of his existence and nature and sending them on their missions of genocide. The Emperor was.

[Wade Garrett]

If you think about it, the Word Bearers are right in more ways than one.

 

Follow the Imperial Truth, or as I prefer to call it, the Imperial "Great Big Comforting LIE!" your entire life, and then when you die, you become the equivalent to a platter of cheese cubes and meatballs on a toothpick for every nasty thing in the Warp for all eternity.

 

Follow the Word of Lorgar, and maybe, MAYBE, if you're very talented and lucky, you ascend to daemonhood and get to be one of those picking the tasty tidbits off the Great Warp buffet forever, instead of the tasty tidbits themselves.

 

(Ignoring the issue of whether it's "you" or "a newly born puppet of the Dark Gods that has your memories and some aspects of your personality" that is engaged in said eternal snack time)

[Gree]

@Billuriye: I have to ask, are you deliberately being close minded on Lorgar, or have you just not read/listened to the latest material on him?

 

Because before his transformation in the HH series, i would have agreed with you. But after actually getting his side of the story, I've been forced to change my long held opinion on him.

 

WLK

 

Did he really need to take fifty years to complete said transformation though?

[Ubermensch Commander]

@Billuriye: I have to ask, are you deliberately being close minded on Lorgar, or have you just not read/listened to the latest material on him?

 

Because before his transformation in the HH series, i would have agreed with you. But after actually getting his side of the story, I've been forced to change my long held opinion on him.

 

WLK

 

Well I cannot speak for Billurive, but I have read the latest works on him and he is still a pathetic, simpering, hyproctical idiot who serves cosmic blasphemies just out of some need to kneel before something.

 

He carried out conflicts for a secular empire with a secular message for years and years. He could not possibly have been ignorant of this fact. He and Magnus are mentioned as debating philosophy, ethics, and other intellectual matters so it certainly fell under his list of interests.

The Emperor is shown as giving much leeway for his wayward sons/lieutenants in their mannerisms and minds.

Indulging in Lorgar's celebrations when he first met him is consistent with the patience shown by the Emperor during the early stages of the Crusade, such as allowing independent states on Terra to exist or adopting defeated armies into the Imperial fold during Deliverance Lost.

The Emperor likely expected his gene-enhanced son to be introduced to the Imperial cause and accept its message. Then, when he didn't get it, the Emperor personally denied his divinity to Lorgar. Again, Lorgar's psychoses impeded any understanding. Every method is used to convince Lorgar to abandon his insanity. This problem is compounded by the Word Bearer's slow progress in the Crusade and the brutal pogroms being perpetuated in the name of religion by the Legion. Their actions are the opposite of what the Emperor desires.

 

Lorgar should never have been "crushed" by Monarchia because any 10 year old could have seen where things were heading. Monarchia, compared to the atrocities Lorgar himself participated in, was a mild slap on the wrist. If the PERSONAL DENIAL from the object of veneration and an EMPIRE WIDE MESSAGE of anti-theology couldn't penetrate Lorgar's dense skull, then public rebuke remained the only method left short of just gutting the worthless scum, a method suggested by some of Lorgar's erstwhile brethren. Hollow faith is not an excuse for stupidity nor is wounded pride an excuse to betray your kin.

 

Lorgar's own failings brought punishment down on his head, nothing else. At the moment of crisis, his professed "faith" is revealed to be hollow. Rather than accepting the word of his God/Liege-lord/Father to change his ways, he turns to the scum who openly had been lying to him his entire life. If he truly had "faith" he would have been met the decrees of his "god."

 

Continuing the events presented in The First Heretic, after proclaiming himself to be a follower of truth and decrying the violence and brutality of the Emperor...he follows the Chaos Gods. No double checking, no shopping around for other gods, not even double checking the validity of what is being told to him, even ignoring the warnings of his own sons, Lorgar happily falls to his knees and begins to "worship" the gods.

 

Thus, for Lorgar, the Emperor is apparently not worth worshiping but the beings whose very presence demands bloodshed and makes reality warp are apparently top grade divinity. This directly contradicts his supposed objections to the Emperor as presented in TFH. Pathetic, hypocritical weakling.

 

Lorgar's side of the story is a pile of excuses and shifted blame to justify his own failings. He fails as a Primarch, a brother, and a self proclaimed philosopher and seeker of truth.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I'm not saying i agree with Lorgar, just that he isnt the simpering weakling you propose he is.

 

but i'm already getting involved with my hourly magnus debate, so i'm checking out here.

 

WLK

[Wade Garrett]

[This problem is compounded by the Word Bearer's slow progress in the Crusade and the brutal pogroms being perpetuated in the name of religion by the Legion. Their actions are the opposite of what the Emperor desires.

 

Do you have any sources that the Word Bearers conducted "brutal pogroms in the name of religion" before they fell to Chaos? I've read The First Heretic, Age of Darkness, Age of Heresy, and Anthony Reynolds Dark---- trilogy and in none of those is anything like that even hinted at. Unlike the Emperor, who had his Thunder Warriors kill every member of the clergy and level every holy site on Terra (source: The Last Church, by Graham McNeil).

 

And by "scum who were lying to him his whole life" I assume you mean Kor Phereon, the man who raised him, and is arguably more of a father to him than Emps ever was, and Erebus, who was apparently considered trustworthy enough by Emps himself that he was allowed to travel from Legion to Legion setting up the Chaplain program. For comparison, the Emperor put ANGRON and KONRAD CURZE in charge of armies of superhumans who had loyalty to their gene father bred into them at a cellular level, and then acted surprised when wacky hi jinks ensued.

[Ubermensch Commander]

[This problem is compounded by the Word Bearer's slow progress in the Crusade and the brutal pogroms being perpetuated in the name of religion by the Legion. Their actions are the opposite of what the Emperor desires.

 

Do you have any sources that the Word Bearers conducted "brutal pogroms in the name of religion" before they fell to Chaos? I've read The First Heretic, Age of Darkness, Age of Heresy, and Anthony Reynolds Dark---- trilogy and in none of those is anything like that even hinted at. Unlike the Emperor, who had his Thunder Warriors kill every member of the clergy and level every holy site on Terra (source: The Last Church, by Graham McNeil).

 

And by "scum who were lying to him his whole life" I assume you mean Kor Phereon, the man who raised him, and is arguably more of a father to him than Emps ever was, and Erebus, who was apparently considered trustworthy enough by Emps himself that he was allowed to travel from Legion to Legion setting up the Chaplain program. For comparison, the Emperor put ANGRON and KONRAD CURZE in charge of armies of superhumans who had loyalty to their gene father bred into them at a cellular level, and then acted surprised when wacky hi jinks ensued.

 

The Word Bearers Index Astartes and the Collected Visions Artbooks both mention religious inspired oppression as a point of contention with the Word Bearers.

 

The issue with Lorgar's condemnation of the Emperor's censure of his Legion is that Lorgar is proclaiming he was somehow betrayed, that he is a truth seeker who has been deceived and wrongfully scorned.(The First Heretic) Yet the Emperor kept his stance on religion quite above board. In bright glowing neon lights. When revealed to have been deceived his whole life by Kor Phaeron, Lorgar is understandably enraged...and then drinks the kool aid with nary a glance back.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Oh really? Has it not been pointed out that the Emperor failed to mention anything on his stance while he was with Lorgar on Colchis? Above the board with glowing neon lights indeed.

 

Also. IIRC Lorgar was already looking into the Dark Gods (as the great entities of the Warp with Magnus) before Kor Phaeron and Erebus told him that they had let the old faith live. So when they do tell him, he uses his mind of a primarch and puts two and two together and decides that it's worth looking into.

 

Finally, I'm kind of tired of people saying that Lorgar being upset over the Emperor's censure is childish. Again and again it has been said this is what Lorgar dedicated his entire life to. He lived and breathed his faith in the Emperor and raised his legion to do the same. He took so much extra time and effort into putting that same faith into the worlds he conquered that he got into the trouble at all. Don't dismiss that out of hand; anyone who's ever mastered any art knows that it requires time and dedication to make something truly worthy and Lorgar cared enough about the Emperor that he turned every single world he conquered into a work of art, many many masterpieces of faith and each and every one was dedicated not to himself, but to the master of mankind.

 

And how does the Emperor respond? With brute force and pure humiliation. This is a primarch, who has spent his entire life creating cities, worlds and even entire star systems with a care that no-one else could come close to, and the person he dedicated it all to tells him it means nothing.

 

To top it all off, the main concern the Emperor has is not that he's been leaving a vital element out or that he's failed to adequately protect the places he's built up. No, that's not what really matters. The issue is that he's not going fast enough. The Emperor has the greatest fighting force in the galaxy. There is truly nothing that can resist the Legions, so the Imperium can spend as much time as it wants conquering the Milky Way. But despite that, the master of mankind has decreed that his most dedicated follower must speed things up and he must be humiliated in the process. Why? Because the Emperor can, that's why.

 

 

 

 

 

 

So yeah, Lorgar is totally weak and pathetic. He's the real moron here, right? <_<

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

This is a primarch, who has spent his entire life creating cities, worlds and even entire star systems with a care that no-one else could come close to, and the person he dedicated it all to tells him it means nothing.

 

i agree with you 100%, but this statement isnt accurate. Guilliman is noted as leaving systems in better order than he found them in.

 

WLK

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

I agree (and I did consider that). However, Lorgar did his with an artist's touch, as opposed to the almost production line of Guillimann and the Ultramarines. I don't want to give the wrong impression with this, Guillimann's specialty as a primarch was most definitely government and he most definitely much more effective than Lorgar and indeed left the worlds he conquered not only improved and self-sustaining but on a very short road to giving back to the Imperium. Lorgar stayed with the world until it reached the point of giving back to the Imperium, which was much longer than necessary, but it allowed him to put that much more effort and craft into the world. Look at Monarchia, it would have been a beacon of everything that was good about the Imperium in the year 40k.

 

TL;DR - Guillimann was much more effective but was a wash and repeat kind of guy, almost like a power gamer using only the most optimal list, for the good of the Imperium. Lorgar was the guy who created art with his wolds, or the guys like Guiturasmus who create absolutely awesome and fluffy armies, but at the cost of a horrendous amount of time for the Imperium.