The future of the Rifleman

[corlinjewell]

So, after reading Dark Guard's recent tourney report (as well as other posts in this sub-forum and the army list reviews), I have noticed that there seems to be less AV 10-11 spam in this edition than in 5th, which will require higher strength anti-tank weapons than the autocannon. Does this mean that the Rifleman dread is no longer the go-to variant on Dreadnoughts? I was curious, because I was thinking about picking up a dread kit, and didn't want to spend the extra twenty or so on the Forgeworld arms if I didn't have to. Also, which variants seems to be the most useful now?

[dswanick]

So, after reading Dark Guard's recent tourney report (as well as other posts in this sub-forum and the army list reviews), I have noticed that there seems to be less AV 10-11 spam in this edition than in 5th, which will require higher strength anti-tank weapons than the autocannon. Does this mean that the Rifleman dread is no longer the go-to variant on Dreadnoughts? I was curious, because I was thinking about picking up a dread kit, and didn't want to spend the extra twenty or so on the Forgeworld arms if I didn't have to. Also, which variants seems to be the most useful now?

Well, a proper "Rifleman" dreadnought should be TL Lascannons and TL Autocannons - and they're still just as useful in 6th as they were in 5th.

[Ming]

My local group never really jumped on maxing on dreads.

 

Overall though, if you can be comfortable getting your units where they need to be (on foot), a rifleman dread can be a great place for points. Overall everyone is enamored on how shooting (plasma) is so important, almost to the point of ignoring the assault phase. Dreads give you a means to have armor that shoots and can assault.

 

Dreads can snapfire, some dreads(rare) have ability to shoot aircraft. Dreads can contest objectives. If you weigh 2 razorbacks or a pred vs a dread, the dreadnaught can become the all-around best choice depending on your metrics. Right now I'd chock lower dread counts to the presence of new units, and how people are looking to try them out.

 

The concept also creates some path to interesting things...imagine not bringing the rifleman dreads for a while, the local meta switches to other firepower / weapons in response, and then you bring the dreads back at the next tournament, catching some players off-guard.

[Captain Idaho]

I had really good experiences with the Assault cannon and Twin Linked Autocannon version instead. The sheer volome of fire it puts down intimidates most opponents into disproportionately concentrating on the Dread (a plus in it's self), but when they don't it never ceases to take a toll on enemies.

 

I'll not lament the Rifleman's passing if it does, but I still think it has a place since there will always be some lighter vehicles around.

[DarkGuard]

The 40K Rifleman build (2x TL-AC) does seem to be declining IMO. As some of you have already read in my tournament report and subsequent posts, armies don't seem to running the amount of AV10-11 that was warranted for the Rifleman's inclusion. Therefore, it has limited impact when going up against AV12 and AV13, and obviously it can't touch AV14. Many times I found myself wishing I'd have taken my Devs, or more missiles etc. Furthermore, when you consider the MEQ nature of 40K, the Rifleman has little impact against the foot element of those armies.

 

It had its place, and is still good against Deldar and any Marine lists that still spam low AV transports. But I'd prefer MLs in a balanced, all round competitive build.

[Kua]

But he has an new role against flyers now, who still are AV 10–12. And with 4 TL snapshots you hit 1.22 times on average. Not ideal if you have real AA units but rises the rifleman’s value again.

[DarkGuard]

As you've said, it's not ideal. I've hardly hit against fliers with my Rifleman, and for his point value I'd rather get a Stormtalon or Aegis Line with a quad gun which can do his role of anti-ground vehicles in edition to anti-flyer.

[Reichfaust]

I loved (and still love) the Rifleman, although I only ever had one pair of TL-AC arms. I often run two Plasma-riflemen (PlasCan & TL-Autocannon), and I had a lot of success with them in 5th--they're still capable of putting 3 S7 shots a piece into vehicles, and a LOT more threatening to any and all infantry).

 

And even though the once ubiquitous Rifleman may be declining, I am very keen to start a small allied GK detachment just to take a Psifleman... Four TL S8 shots for 5 points? Yes please! :D

[maturin]

Dreads can contest objectives.

 

Wait....is this true? I thought vehicles couldn't be denial units. Did I miss something in the walker section?

 

As 6th is still very young and the meta is still shifting rapidly, I think it's a bit too early to declare the Rifleman "dead". People seem to be shifting to infantry-heavy forces, but as a reult I think AV12-13 spam will be a very viable list type, and with dreads we can fill both HS and Elites with armored units. And as previously mentioned they have a useful secondary role as AA support...

[Ming]

I'll try to check on dreads able to contest (deny in new language) this evening. You'd think with special character / named walkers they might (including the few rare HQ walkers), just need to verify actual language....I'm likely wrong...I think of them in the same vein as Monstrous Creatures.

 

Tracked/wheeled vehicles (except bikers), skimmers, flyers cannot deny.

[DarkGuard]

Dreadnoughts definitely can't deny, unless they have a special rule that says otherwise (like Grand Strat in C:GK).

[Ming]

Dreadnoughts definitely can't deny, unless they have a special rule that says otherwise (like Grand Strat in C:GK).

 

Yep, I went home, grabbed the BRB and a frosty pint, and confirmed...deny is for "all vehicles", in the appendix walkers are classed as vehicles.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Ah, but C:SM armies with a MOTF can move them to Heavy Support, and vehicles in the HS slots CAN score in the Big Guns Never Tire mission. But that's about the only time it's applicable.

[roryokane]

A mite convoluted, ne? ^_^

I've been looking at this with some interest, especially as the Contemptor is now out - and the Mortis-pattern seems to be ridiculously good at AA (Skyfire and Interceptor at BS5 with twin assault kheres assault cannons or autocannons or whatever you feel like putting on there AND a carapace-mounted Cyclone Missile Launcher?)! However, according the Forgeworld 6th Ed. FAQ, the Mortis-pattern dreadnought (which is a rifleman dread, right?) gets Skyfire and Interceptor when stationary, just like the Contemptor-Mortis version, it just doesn't have the improved BS and all the other Contemptor gubbins. Since no-one seems to use whirlwinds any more, and certainly not the Hyperios version, this might give rifleman dreads a new lease of life as dedicated AAA, as well as the more traditional role of blatting light vehicles and eldar/guard/tau units with 4+ saves (most Aspect warriors etc).

Though I'd like to hear what people think of a "rifleman contemptor" build - worth the points? I certainly think the twin kheres assault cannon and cyclone missile launcher combination would make an excellent close-support/AA unit (12 S6 Rending shots? Yes please!) with some long range firepower in the form of two krak/frag missiles a turn... what do people think?

[maturin]

There's no question the Mortis Contemptor is one of C:SM's greatest AA assets. I recently ran a Kheres-AC contemptor at a 6-game tourney, in a dread-heavy list, and there's no question it was the most effective of any of my dreads (Bray'arth, and regular Contemptor), although I didn't meet any flyers that weekend.

 

The problem with the Kheres armnament is the 24" range. While the cyclone goes some way toward mitigating it, it makes an already expensive unit quite a bit pricier. And if you're expecting enemy flyers to come in on turn 2 then your contemptor must stay stationary on turn 1 to get skyfire/interceptor....which will place him out of range unless your opponent decides to fly right up to you.

 

So yes, I've been wondering if a TLAC or TLLC mortis contemptor would be worth it. My qualms are that there are other, cheaper ways to get AC or LC fire, and twin-linking isn't really needed with the mortis' BS5. The real value in the mortis is in its ability to take Kheres AC's (present no where else) and the BS5 stat.

 

I guess I'm still on the fence....a regular rifleman might be almost as good, for quite a bit cheaper.

 

The other thought that did occur to me is to take 2 multi-meltas. Again, only 24" range...but where else are you going to find skyfire/interceptor capable multimeltas? ;)

[roryokane]

Good point. Pretty good melta-spam there. bye-bye enemy vehicles...

The Contemptor Mortis just looks so badass as well. I'd imagine it'd draw quite a lot of firepower - which, as it's somewhat hardier than a Dreadnought, is probably not TOO risky. AV 13 on the front isn't invincible (watch out for those lascannons!) but it's pretty damn good with the atomantic shielding as well. Stick it next to a tactical squad on an objective, and they'd be very hard to shift, I'd imagine. Even snapfiring with the assault cannons when charged would statistically do something! But I agree, the limited range on the assault cannons is still the build's biggest weakness, even with the added missile launchers (which make the already intimidating model that much more so)...

I'd LOVE to see an animated contemptor - I don't suppose anyone's any good at modding DoW2? ;)

[Axagoras]

My contemptor is 2 Kheres assault cannons and a cyclone, it has only died 2 times, once was after being fired on for 5 turns by a vindacator, and 1 because I fought a friend who proxied an attack bike and I forgot it had a multi melta and walked up to it. With intercepter and skyfire it killed 5 chaos terminators who deep struck behind it. For 215 points it is the best vehicle a marine can use.

[roryokane]

Good to hear. I really like the model, and the Kheres AC's (can I abbreviate that to KAC? :P) spit out a huge volume of firepower. Even if you don't rend, some terminators will roll 1s eventually...

Also, regarding the double-melta for AA duty -I'd argue that 12 rending shots are better than 2 melta shots at over 12", and even at under 12", some flyers (e.g. Thunderhawks) have the Ceramite shielding rule so you don't get your extra D6 to penetrate. Whereas, a rending assault cannon hit will automatically be a penetrating hit (S6+6 (to rend) +D3 (for rending) against the AV 12 Thunderhawk, and with 12 of them, you really ought to rend at least once. I agree, 24" is still shortish for AA, but useful, I'd imagine, with Skyfire and Interceptor.

Plus I quite like the imagery of an Ultramarine Mortis-Contemptor bracing itself, pointing its guns skywards, watching them take a second or two to spool up to firing speed, and then spit out a torrent of shells at an oncoming traitor Thunderhawk, which then crashes out of the sky and explodes in an enormous fireball, cooking the traitors inside... :D

[roryokane]

Good to hear. I really like the model, and the Kheres AC's (can I abbreviate that to KAC? :P) spit out a huge volume of firepower. Even if you don't rend, some terminators will roll 1s eventually...

Also, regarding the double-melta for AA duty -I'd argue that 12 rending shots are better than 2 melta shots at over 12", and even at under 12", some flyers (e.g. Thunderhawks) have the Ceramite shielding rule so you don't get your extra D6 to penetrate. Whereas, a rending assault cannon hit will automatically be a penetrating hit (S6+6 (to rend) +D3 (for rending) against the AV 12 Thunderhawk, and with 12 of them, you really ought to rend at least once. I agree, 24" is still shortish for AA, but useful, I'd imagine, with Skyfire and Interceptor.

Plus I quite like the imagery of an Ultramarine Mortis-Contemptor bracing itself, pointing its guns skywards, watching them take a second or two to spool up to firing speed, and then spit out a torrent of shells at an oncoming traitor Thunderhawk, which then crashes out of the sky and explodes in an enormous fireball, cooking the traitors inside... :D