Congratulations, Heretics and Traitors . . .

[Azekai]

Angry Rant Time

Well, after going over all the leaked material, I can say with a certain degree of certainty that CSMs have, indeed, become the 6th edition Tyranids. Instead of getting our time in the sun and going crazy ape bonkers with fun new toys and thrashing some smarmy GK face, things went from outdated to . . . new and somehow no better.

Our new codex actually changes/nerfs the few good things we had, while offering new units that are at best lackluster or at worst, tripe. Our psychic powers are meh, we certainly have nothing on the level of 'stackable' hammerhands or JoWW. Arguably even the silly IG pysker powers are better than ours. :down:

 

Our HQ options seem overcosted and gimmicky, and lacking the tools that actually allow CC monsters to function. No eternal warrior in sight with the possible exception of Abbadon, crappy invuln saves, and 'lolrandom' powerups that cannot be relied upon and have a chance of actually screwing you over.

 

Heck, strong parallels can even be made between the 'nidzilla' phenomenon and what is happening with our Daemon Princes. Both carnifexes and DPs were undercosted in the previous iteration of the rules, so GW hit them with the nerf bat. Hard.

 

Some of the new daemon engines seem alright, but again, same thing went for the nids- some shiny new things that are pretty decent, and to even have a chance you darn well better field those tervigons/forge fiends/whatever. Are they awesome? No, but by god, if you don't want to be tabled, you take them.

 

--------

I could go on, but in summary, it feels like we got the short end of the stick as GW grapples with with the beast known as 6th Edition. Although I have complete faith that they will hit their stride in a month or three and turn out a nice, face-smashingly dangerous Codex: Dark Angels. :angry:

 

Edit: By the way, please feel free to argue with me- I would love to eat crow on this one. It just feels like deja vu.

[greatcrusade08]

rumours are all well and good, i prefer to wait until the book is in my hands before i can agree with you.

 

there may be a few easter eggs to balance out the nasties

[Lepaca]

I for one will propably cancel my preorder for the codex and continue count-as-ing as Space Wolves.

If it turns out the new codex is a lot better than I think I can still spend the 40€ at some later point.

[Iron Sage]

This is a silly topic on the grounds that it is in every way pre-mature to judge the new codex abillity to compete with other codices. We lack way too much data to categorically say that it will suck.

[Warsmith Aznable]

Nothing stands out to be like GK Paladin-cheese, but I never wanted that for Chaos Marines. I wanted more viable units in the codex, and it seems to me that we're getting them. Multiple lists that work, and bringing the flavor back to Chaos, that's all I really wanted. And crazy psycho killer robot lists alongside our own codex flyer. And a way to build a Warsmith.

 

I'm going to be very happy with this new book, even if I don't win a significant amount more than I was back in 5th edition, just on modeling alone.

[HJL]

so... your throwing a wobbley based on rumours on the internet... :/

[minigun762]

I'm asking that we step back and realize we are raging against an unreleased product of which we have snippets of information to make a decision.

 

I can only speak for myself but after years of Chaos codex rants, I'd like to give the new one a fair chance before beginning to beat upon a new dead horse.

[Azekai]

so... your throwing a wobbley based on rumours on the internet... :/

It is not simply rumor- there are many leaked pages out there, including points costs and psyker powers, most notably, though some special rules elude me. I do not have the whole codex in front of me, true, but with the information available, I fail to see how we can hold a candle to other recent 'revamped' armies.

 

Furthermore, many of these rumors are damnably accurate- I chuckled when I heard about a chaos-dragon flier, and then bam- hellturkeys everywhere. :angry:

 

I'm asking that we step back and realize we are raging against an unreleased product of which we have snippets of information to make a decision.

 

I can only speak for myself but after years of Chaos codex rants, I'd like to give the new one a fair chance before beginning to beat upon a new dead horse.

Perhaps I am being a prophet of doom, and I would love to be wrong . . . but I aim to abort that horse. :down:

[greatcrusade08]

the rumours to me make this dex comparable to codex space marines.. so whilst its easy to say dexes like C:BA, C:SW and C:GK are all going to be better, we have to remember that C:SM has a few unique options that can make it very competative.

[Magnus Thane]

Wow... judging a book before its been out...

Sorry but I feel 0 empathy for this thread.

For years I've seen the Chaos players rant about wanting a new codex and now the last few weeks i've seen tons of ranting about the new codex being awful, non competitive, too mutated, etc etc... before the codex is out.

 

I'm starting to get the feeling it'll never be good...

[Urauloth]

Nothing stands out to be like GK Paladin-cheese, but I never wanted that for Chaos Marines. I wanted more viable units in the codex, and it seems to me that we're getting them. Multiple lists that work, and bringing the flavor back to Chaos, that's all I really wanted.

 

I agree, I'm really happy with the leaks from this book so far and I'm looking forward to getting hold of a copy.

[Hellios]

I think we really need to wait and see what lists pop up and how they do before we cry. I will say my feelings at the moment are meh. I'm not sure this codex will be better (excluding updating it for 6th ed so we have AA and so on.) but I'm also not sure it will be weaker than the current dex. It looks like they listen to some of the problems with the chaos dex, although from what I've seen I think they solutions could have been implemented differently.

 

All I can say is (Once more I'm holding final judgement until I see the models in person.), is that I would have gone in another direction with the daemon engine models. I'm more of a living machine kind of daemon engine guy than a mechanical creature daemon engine kind of guy. At the I prefer the FW daemon engines but even then I have to say it took a while for the Greater Brass Scorpion to grow on me.

[KingDeath]

Paladins stoped being good a long time ago ( actualy, they were never cheese ).

What the current codex brings we will see once it is released. Especialy the rather cheap but durable ( either trough numbers or stats ) troops might be useful.

[Smurfalypse]

How many games have you play tested to see how noncompetitive it is? Just curious. . .

 

There are a TON of bright spots in the rumors, though I could sit here and list them I wont change your mind because you are set in your thought process already.

[Azekai]

There are a TON of bright spots in the rumors, though I could sit here and list them I wont change your mind because you are set in your thought process already.

 

Hey, even the 'nids got cool stuff like the Doom o' Malantai. Some stuff does sound fun . . . the warpsmith comes to mind.

But set in my ways? No.

Viciously pessimistic? Certainly.

[Iron Sage]

How many games have you play tested to see how noncompetitive it is? Just curious. . .

 

There are a TON of bright spots in the rumors, though I could sit here and list them I wont change your mind because you are set in your thought process already.

 

chaos space marines, our staple unit, seems good and very customizable now. You have to pay one point per model to make them have their old LD; but then they happen to get Hatred: Space Marines as well.

Plague Marines are up one point, but get plagueknives and will therefore butcher puny stuff that assaults it and not become bogged down which sometimes happened in the gav dex. I say they are as good as before. So no change there.

Sons. No change.

What we know of Slaneesh cult marines makes them sound like they are way, way better than before. So there is another positive.

Next, the Warsmith looks pretty good. Looks like it has a lot of options to make it better as well. Positive again.

All the Special Warlord traits in the new dex are WAY better than those in the Rule Book. Only sucks if you roll Black Crusader when not playing Space Marines, but thats the only situational one if I remember correctly from the scan. Surely thats VERY positive?

Possessed. Seems weak. Hope we are missing something on it. But they suck less than before at the very least, though still not positive.

Defiler. More expensive they all say. Going to cost around 200 points. But it now comes with +5 Invul and It Will Not Die, so I dont know if its worse at all. I think its decent.

Fiend thing. Sounds very, very useful. Thats a positive factor again.

Dragon has an awsome anti infantry weapon, and 170 points is not that expensive. IMO positive. Havocs: Better, and clearly so. Positive again.

Icons? Most of them are actually very good! Some are not so good.

Dread: Better now. Can now be used. Clearly positive,

Mauler fiend. Seems very agressive and good.

Daemon Prince: Going to be expensive and very much so, but we dont yet know its options, only that its going to cost a lot. So Unknown on Daemon Prince.

Raptors: Better now according to rumours.

Terminators. From what we have heard, they will be decent at least.

Mutilators: underwhelming.

Warp Talon: Jury is still out and no judgement yet. 30 points jump infantry with lightning claws.

Dark Apostle: We dont know all its options, so its an unknown.

Sorcerer: We know its dirt cheap and comes with a force weapon for 60 points. Positive surely?

Bikes anyone? 90 for 3 including champ and then 20 points per model? Lol, thats ridiculously cheap !

 

So yes indeed, Smurf, you are very correct.

 

 

Edit: And guys....Ahriman....Seriously? Way better than before.

[Urdokadin]

The sky is falling! Save yourselves! The end cometh! Ones will be rolled!

 

Seriously, wait for the book to be in your hands. This internet bandwagon of hatred honestly is getting old. There's plenty to be excited about, cultists are back! Don't like the models in the new release? Thank the warp there's a massive lineup of things you can convert to your pleasing.

This hobby has so many elements to it beyond the rules that it feels like something is lost in translation at the sheer joy of knowing your army is yours to convert and paint. At no point does anyone force you to purchase or even like a particular aspect of a mini or rules associated with it. The whining comes off as about as mature as a kid crying at Christmas he didn't get everything he wanted. Make yourself happy, GW doesn't do that for gamers. Gamers do it for themselves.

Moreover, if you compare, people complain at EVERY release. Everything is always so OP or broken or makes unit x from codex y look like tripe. They design this game to not be balanced, new codexes have fresh design ideas in them. By it's very nature every codex is an experiment in game design. Take it for what it is.

[Smurfalypse]

There are a TON of bright spots in the rumors, though I could sit here and list them I wont change your mind because you are set in your thought process already.

 

Hey, even the 'nids got cool stuff like the Doom o' Malantai. Some stuff does sound fun . . . the warpsmith comes to mind.

But set in my ways? No.

Viciously pessimistic? Certainly.

 

Viciously pessimistic. . . Frigging awesome, just to let you know I am totally stealing that phrase and using it as often as possible <_<

[Kol Saresk]

To be honest, looking at a bunch of pictures that are spread out through the Codex which leave many gaps in between and saying that those snippets are concrete evidence to say "It sucks" is like looking at a bunch of bolts, washers and nuts and sayign that you are looking at a car when in reality you are looking at pieces from a lawnmower. Until we know the entirety of the Codex, it is too premature to form an opinion of it. At least, that's my opinion.

[zyl-]

I wish they would experiment with balancing things. They've only had about 30 years to do it.

[Smurfalypse]

How many games have you play tested to see how noncompetitive it is? Just curious. . .

 

There are a TON of bright spots in the rumors, though I could sit here and list them I wont change your mind because you are set in your thought process already.

 

chaos space marines, our staple unit, seems good and very customizable now. You have to pay one point per model to make them have their old LD; but then they happen to get Hatred: Space Marines as well.

Plague Marines are up one point, but get plagueknives and will therefore butcher puny stuff that assaults it and not become bogged down which sometimes happened in the gav dex. I say they are as good as before. So no change there.

Sons. No change.

What we know of Slaneesh cult marines makes them sound like they are way, way better than before. So there is another positive.

Next, the Warsmith looks pretty good. Looks like it has a lot of options to make it better as well. Positive again.

All the Special Warlord traits in the new dex are WAY better than those in the Rule Book. Only sucks if you roll Black Crusader when not playing Space Marines, but thats the only situational one if I remember correctly from the scan. Surely thats VERY positive?

Possessed. Seems weak. Hope we are missing something on it. But they suck less than before at the very least, though still not positive.

Defiler. More expensive they all say. Going to cost around 200 points. But it now comes with +5 Invul and It Will Not Die, so I dont know if its worse at all. I think its decent.

Fiend thing. Sounds very, very useful. Thats a positive factor again.

Dragon has an awsome anti infantry weapon, and 170 points is not that expensive. IMO positive. Havocs: Better, and clearly so. Positive again.

Icons? Most of them are actually very good! Some are not so good.

Dread: Better now. Can now be used. Clearly positive,

Mauler fiend. Seems very agressive and good.

Daemon Prince: Going to be expensive and very much so, but we dont yet know its options, only that its going to cost a lot. So Unknown on Daemon Prince.

Raptors: Better now according to rumours.

Terminators. From what we have heard, they will be decent at least.

Mutilators: underwhelming.

Warp Talon: Jury is still out and no judgement yet. 30 points jump infantry with lightning claws.

Dark Apostle: We dont know all its options, so its an unknown.

Sorcerer: We know its dirt cheap and comes with a force weapon for 60 points. Positive surely?

Bikes anyone? 90 for 3 including champ and then 20 points per model? Lol, thats ridiculously cheap !

 

So yes indeed, Smurf, you are very correct.

 

 

Edit: And guys....Ahriman....Seriously? Way better than before.

 

 

There are some things that bug me I admit. The Daemon Prince MUST take a mark really erks the crap out of me as a purist Word Bearer player, means I probably will never run one. Possessed are indeed very poor sounding from the pics that were leaked, in fact i would say that they are overall worse than they were before unless there something that is being missed. To be honest, that is about all that really gets me, I even think Mutilators will find their place and do okay for themselves. Just a feeling, but we will see. <_<

 

One thing I think we all can agree on is a bit of excitement about the possibility of it all.

[Narse]

I also think this codex screams of a nerf....

 

I don't think it will be completely unplayable though, so i'll continue...

[khurdur]

well lads, I myself am an ex-disgruntled chaos general, I played some loyalist blood angels during the gavdex era, and I'm VERY excited about the new book. I don't think there is any need to be so pessimistic about the rumours. Our book was rather poor, and this can ONLY be a turn for the better. But, lets look at the rumours logically, and I think I'm fairly unbiased to see thing as they are, but remember these are still rumours, solid yes at this advanced stage, but still there many thing we don't know.

 

Lets see:

 

chaos marines-cheaper, and ability to take marks(that can't be lost) and icons, and veteraon of the long war for laughs. I think they are better.

Plague marines-used to kick ass, I think they still will from what we saw with poisoned weapons. still a solid choice.

Ksons-as before, so perhaps still not an awesome choice.

Noise marines-cheaper and with salvo shots...definately better

Berzerkers-just as much slaughter, and counter-attack, for 3-4 points less, ignoring AP4 and hatred for marines-awesome. Much better.

Mutilators-so/so, but give them a mark and they'll be fine.

termies-same as before, so fairly solid

 

Possessed. Better than before, but still expensive. Meh I'd say

chosen-solid I'd say as before

dreadnought-better than before-more options and more controllable

 

Forgefiend-good I'd say...8 S8 shot anyone?? but not broken

Maulerfiend-even better, true only AV12 but runs like hell

Defiler-worse I'd say. 195p is just too much for an AV12 shooting platform, even with a 5++

Land raider-the same I think.

Oblits-unknown, but I think I saw they keep all the weapons, for 5 points less, and can take a mark. Meaning, MoTZ and a 4++, meaning they can shoot it out with most gunlines. A definate thumbs-up.

The helldrake seems interesting, but I can't help comparing it to the stormraven that just shoots so much harder, for only 30 points more and can transport men to boot. Though our S10 drive-by seems interesting. I'll reserve judgement for when I'll see the book, but it seems average, not hardcore.

 

Warp talons seem ok.

Raptors are better.

Bikes are much better.

 

And HQ, chaos lords are looking very solid with a 2+ and 4++ options not counting MoTZ, DPs good but you pay for it, sorcerors are too cheap to be bad, and warpsmith and dark apostle we gotta see them first to judge.

 

so, I think we have cause for celebration! Looks like a solid book, but not broken !

[Iron Sage]

well lads, I myself am an ex-disgruntled chaos general, I played some loyalist blood angels during the gavdex era, and I'm VERY excited about the new book. I don't think there is any need to be so pessimistic about the rumours. Our book was rather poor, and this can ONLY be a turn for the better. But, lets look at the rumours logically, and I think I'm fairly unbiased to see thing as they are, but remember these are still rumours, solid yes at this advanced stage, but still there many thing we don't know.

 

Lets see:

 

chaos marines-cheaper, and ability to take marks(that can't be lost) and icons, and veteraon of the long war for laughs. I think they are better.

Plague marines-used to kick ass, I think they still will from what we saw with poisoned weapons. still a solid choice.

Ksons-as before, so perhaps still not an awesome choice.

Noise marines-cheaper and with salvo shots...definately better

Berzerkers-just as much slaughter, and counter-attack, for 3-4 points less, ignoring AP4 and hatred for marines-awesome. Much better.

Mutilators-so/so, but give them a mark and they'll be fine.

termies-same as before, so fairly solid

 

Possessed. Better than before, but still expensive. Meh I'd say

chosen-solid I'd say as before

dreadnought-better than before-more options and more controllable

 

Forgefiend-good I'd say...8 S8 shot anyone?? but not broken

Maulerfiend-even better, true only AV12 but runs like hell

Defiler-worse I'd say. 195p is just too much for an AV12 shooting platform, even with a 5++

Land raider-the same I think.

Oblits-unknown, but I think I saw they keep all the weapons, for 5 points less, and can take a mark. Meaning, MoTZ and a 4++, meaning they can shoot it out with most gunlines. A definate thumbs-up.

The helldrake seems interesting, but I can't help comparing it to the stormraven that just shoots so much harder, for only 30 points more and can transport men to boot. Though our S10 drive-by seems interesting. I'll reserve judgement for when I'll see the book, but it seems average, not hardcore.

 

Warp talons seem ok.

Raptors are better.

Bikes are much better.

 

And HQ, chaos lords are looking very solid with a 2+ and 4++ options not counting MoTZ, DPs good but you pay for it, sorcerors are too cheap to be bad, and warpsmith and dark apostle we gotta see them first to judge.

 

so, I think we have cause for celebration! Looks like a solid book, but not broken !

Agree obviosuly, since you say more or less the same as I did. But cheack out the prince thread. There is a picture of the rules for warpsmith there, so its a known factor (though not what it can take in the armory)

[diabloelmo]

From what I have seen, I fail to see how this new 'dex is a downgrade in any way, shape or form. Our staple CSM squad is more customisable, and with all the goodies costs the same as we pay now, and a are slightly better for it. Stuff like bikers and raptors are much cheaper now, so are both viable choices (finally!), and all the pretty new toys we have to play with opens up a lot of new possibilities for us.

 

I for one will be happy as a clam to say goodbye to the stupid lash prince/obliterator setup as being our only real viable tourney build, and really look forward to having a balanced codex - especially after so long with our current piece of crap.

 

tl;dr: quit your complaining about a codex that has yet to even hit the shelves, it might not be a overpowered Wardian codex, but that's a good thing!