Magnus Thane Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 How are they dated? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/261931-congratulations-heretics-and-traitors/page/4/#findComment-3189457 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cmdr Shepard Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 1. Every time a Codex is about to be release there is a good amount of players who complain about the lack of "competitiveness"; basing the judgments on the rumors. It happens with every codex. I also heard persons complaing about GK before their release. "They are too expensive to be competitve", said one of the so called "experts" at local game store. 2. The rumors are not so bad as several persons are saying. DP are less viable due to the lack of Eternal Warrior? We'll play something else. And there is a great variety. I don't want to list all of them, other users already posted them in this very topic. 3. Lack of EW and CC monsters? Very few armies have more than one Eternal Warrior character and many armies don't have one at all. Even GK have a single EW model, and now he is even equiped with a sword that is unable to bypass TDA. I don't agree with the complain about the lack of CC monsters. Abaddon seems very difficult to defeat in a challange and CC in general; most CSM can gain Hatred against all SM; they can customize Terminators melee weapons. Even Arihman with Biomancy (I remeber I read he can choose powers from Biomancy) can be nasty. A SM with biomancy upgrades is nasty and he is only a level 2 psyker. I think we should read the Codex, playtest several lists and then we could voice out our complains, if any. :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/261931-congratulations-heretics-and-traitors/page/4/#findComment-3189463 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith Aznable Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 How are they dated? I hear this thing about them being dated, but I don't get it unless it's change for the sake of newness. I like the current CSM and Berserkers. The other cult troops are dated, and even then the Plague Marines are only dated because they are resigned to Finecast release. I would rather see new sprues of plastic multi-pose Noise Marines and Rubric Marines before any of the other standard troops (or Elites now, I guess). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/261931-congratulations-heretics-and-traitors/page/4/#findComment-3189488 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.darkness Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 How many games have you play tested to see how noncompetitive it is? Just curious. . . There are a TON of bright spots in the rumors, though I could sit here and list them I wont change your mind because you are set in your thought process already. chaos space marines, our staple unit, seems good and very customizable now. You have to pay one point per model to make them have their old LD; but then they happen to get Hatred: Space Marines as well. Plague Marines are up one point, but get plagueknives and will therefore butcher puny stuff that assaults it and not become bogged down which sometimes happened in the gav dex. I say they are as good as before. So no change there. Sons. No change. What we know of Slaneesh cult marines makes them sound like they are way, way better than before. So there is another positive. Next, the Warsmith looks pretty good. Looks like it has a lot of options to make it better as well. Positive again. All the Special Warlord traits in the new dex are WAY better than those in the Rule Book. Only sucks if you roll Black Crusader when not playing Space Marines, but thats the only situational one if I remember correctly from the scan. Surely thats VERY positive? Possessed. Seems weak. Hope we are missing something on it. But they suck less than before at the very least, though still not positive. Defiler. More expensive they all say. Going to cost around 200 points. But it now comes with +5 Invul and It Will Not Die, so I dont know if its worse at all. I think its decent. Fiend thing. Sounds very, very useful. Thats a positive factor again. Dragon has an awsome anti infantry weapon, and 170 points is not that expensive. IMO positive. Havocs: Better, and clearly so. Positive again. Icons? Most of them are actually very good! Some are not so good. Dread: Better now. Can now be used. Clearly positive, Mauler fiend. Seems very agressive and good. Daemon Prince: Going to be expensive and very much so, but we dont yet know its options, only that its going to cost a lot. So Unknown on Daemon Prince. Raptors: Better now according to rumours. Terminators. From what we have heard, they will be decent at least. Mutilators: underwhelming. Warp Talon: Jury is still out and no judgement yet. 30 points jump infantry with lightning claws. Dark Apostle: We dont know all its options, so its an unknown. Sorcerer: We know its dirt cheap and comes with a force weapon for 60 points. Positive surely? Bikes anyone? 90 for 3 including champ and then 20 points per model? Lol, thats ridiculously cheap ! So yes indeed, Smurf, you are very correct. Edit: And guys....Ahriman....Seriously? Way better than before. There are some things that bug me I admit. The Daemon Prince MUST take a mark really erks the crap out of me as a purist Word Bearer player, means I probably will never run one. Possessed are indeed very poor sounding from the pics that were leaked, in fact i would say that they are overall worse than they were before unless there something that is being missed. To be honest, that is about all that really gets me, I even think Mutilators will find their place and do okay for themselves. Just a feeling, but we will see. :tu: One thing I think we all can agree on is a bit of excitement about the possibility of it all. I don't really know the fluff for the word bearers, but I assume they don't have a particular allegiance to a god, and therefore you don't want a mark. Just an Idea, but if you do want to field a daemon prince, just view the mark as something else. for example, he could have been infused with rage after a dark apostle's speech, or he could have bionic implants represent FNP. on topic, I think we juts don't have enough information to base it on. We need to see the full codex, in action, on the tabletop. admittedly there are a lot of rumors which point to both good and bad, but I truly believe that without seeing the full picture, with pts, exact stats and upgrades, etc... then we cant really make a judgement. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/261931-congratulations-heretics-and-traitors/page/4/#findComment-3189489 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cmdr Shepard Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 I don't really know the fluff for the word bearers, but I assume they don't have a particular allegiance to a god, and therefore you don't want a mark. Just an Idea, but if you do want to field a daemon prince, just view the mark as something else. for example, he could have been infused with rage after a dark apostle's speech, or he could have bionic implants represent FNP. This is the concept I'll use for my renegade army. Since I play to build a "rogue" chapter not devoted to chaos but with access to many ancient technologies, chaos and not, the marks represent such tech. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/261931-congratulations-heretics-and-traitors/page/4/#findComment-3189495 Share on other sites More sharing options...
diabloelmo Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 I for one am hoping that we get a new plastic kit for our CSM, but as a Night Lords player, I generally use kitbashed loyalist stuff anyway, so it's more a matter of pretty new conversion bitz to play with :tu: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/261931-congratulations-heretics-and-traitors/page/4/#findComment-3189500 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnus Thane Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 How are they dated? I hear this thing about them being dated, but I don't get it unless it's change for the sake of newness. I like the current CSM and Berserkers. The other cult troops are dated, and even then the Plague Marines are only dated because they are resigned to Finecast release. I would rather see new sprues of plastic multi-pose Noise Marines and Rubric Marines before any of the other standard troops (or Elites now, I guess). Seems we are likeminded. Our CSMs remain very good just as the basic SM's are. To top it of they are easily kitbasheable. I suspect a lot of people want even their basic csm to be leaning to the over the top of the Chosen etc. But that is something i'm not for as it landlocks the CSMs too much in the 'over the top' and the 'mutated/warped'. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/261931-congratulations-heretics-and-traitors/page/4/#findComment-3189502 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 Angry Rant Time Well, I guess you're more renegade space marine than Traitor Legion then. Go paint some Dark Angels. The book can only be better than the 4th ed one, and I wouldn't want it to be as spawny as GK. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/261931-congratulations-heretics-and-traitors/page/4/#findComment-3189514 Share on other sites More sharing options...
firestorm40k Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 Ahhh, the Chaos forums on B&C, guaranteed to be b*tching needlessly regardless of the status of our Codex! ^_^ :tu: It’s been said before and I’ll say it because it is what I think as well: I’ll wait until I’ve got the Codex, have read it, digested some of the rules and stats BEFORE I complain that we’re not the new GK/BA/SW/Whatever. I got a couple of quick flicks through the new ‘Dex at Games Day, and had a brief Q&A with Mr Kelly; the only things that I saw that disappointed me were Spawn not getting any kind of armour save (unless you roll 1 on a D3!), Cultists not having any abilities beyond being able to blob up and die (apparently Phil Kelly didn’t make them sneaky saboteurs as he didn’t want to annoy Guard players (eh?!?) but mainly because he didn’t want to detract from the focus of the Codex which should always be CSM); and the Daemon Engines only being 12/12/10. Yeah, even though they’re Daemons (5+ Invun) and can Regenerate once per game, they will still die easily to Autocannons etc. The most important thing I wanted going in to this codex was choice, something we sorely lacked previously. I am pleased to say that we will get this. We can play nasty, with our fantastic range of Marine Hating units :( (oh, and stop complaining about DPs not getting EW – they’re T6 now! And WS8 and I7! :ph34r: ), blobbing Cultists as meat shields and speed bumps, or we can field a ton of more themed and characterful armies which have a far better chance of working than they did before. Now, if you excuse me, I will be sat waiting by my letter box awaiting the delivery of my ‘Dex… Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/261931-congratulations-heretics-and-traitors/page/4/#findComment-3189521 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 I dunno, after a series of frighteningly lethal codex releases, ours just being 'ok' means that we are weak. The main reason for the 'nid comparison is that GW seems lost when transitioning between editions. For example, they made Slow and Purposeful awful, and then gave it to Tsons, a supremely shooty unit. It is like they don't even take into account what their new shiny revamped rules do. None of that makes us the new tyranids, though. The tyranid codex is the fascinating disaster it is not just because it's week, but for other far more extravagant reasons: 1) special rules that do not work at all. Our warp talons blinding thing may be weak and situational, but it still does what it does. Trygon tunnels? Lictor phermone trails? These special rules don't work at all, and nothing in the new book that we've seen so far shows anything like that level of fail 2) upgrades that make your units worse. Poison works differently now, but at the time the nid book was released, poison was an option you could buy for extra points on several of your monstrous creatures that made them objectively worse at wounding things, particularly for the Carnifex, which got worse against everything in the game because of it. While the chaos book does seem to have a poor understanding of the implications of the 6e rules, nothing we've seen so far indicates that the writer didn't actually know how they worked. 3) The Tyranid book didn't just have a few bad units, it had terrible internal balance throughout, resulting in obvious take / don't take choices everywhere and very few real build options. The new chaos book does seem to have some bad choices - with GW's lack of competitive play testing that's inevitable - but nowhere near on the level of the tyranid book, and while dominant builds may emerge down the line, at the moment it looks like there are several builds people are at least anxious to try, particularly helped out by the HQ options moving particular cult marines to troops. 4) The Tyranid book didn't just give new units a slight bump, it made them, particularly the tervigon, just plain essential for the army to function, and then didn't release a model for it for ages. None of the new stuff in Codex CSMs is anything like that essential. The new daemon engines seem decent, but they're also expensive, low armor, and have relatively limited output for their cost, and while they're competitive, they don't eclipse tried and true options like the vindicator or defiler. Other new stuff varies in quality, but none of it really stands out as essential. Additionally, the new stuff is all pretty much available right from the start, with the exception of the cultists and chosen which are in the starter box and rumored to be coming soon anyway. 5) Likewise, the 'nid book didn't just tone down the overpowered elements of the previous book, it made them terrible, especially in comparison to the new hotness. Berzerkers, Plague Marines, Oblits - these are still strong unit choices in the new book. The terrible units in the new CSM book were the same units that sucked in the old book, too (possessed, sons). You could make an argument about Princes, which got much more expensive and lost eternal warrior, but even if you don't field them to start anymore, you'll still want a prince or two for the occasional eye of the gods result. In fact, chaos players who didn't own them before now have a strong reason to go pick one up. The same could not be said for, say, the tyranid Carnifex. So, while the Chaos book may be a tad disappointing compared to other recent codeces (I know I would be disappointed if I had let my expectations get that high), and while it may be a sad confirmation of the new direction of chaos for those who were longing for a return to the 3.5 paradigm, there really is no way it can be compared to the Tyranid book. It's just no where near as bizarrely compelling a disaster. I really can't bring myself to see it as a disaster at all. Also worth noting, despite how horrid the rules, internal balance, and external balance of the Tyranid book, and despite how many players it drove away, the players that remained were still able to develop some different tactics and a surprising variety of at least semi functional builds, and a few notable players have even had some tournament success. The key thing is, as disastrous as the nid book was, it had something our 4e chaos book lacks - options. Many bad, many only useful in counter-intuitive ways, but there still there, and picking through those mismatched jigsaw pieces trying to find a new way to mash them together has become something of its own facet of the hobby. When I got too bored to even look at my chaos marines, it was Tyranids that I turned to as a secondary army, knowing full well what I was getting into, and I didn't regret it (though now I kind of wish I had picked daemons, what with the new ally rules). It was a breath of fresh air, and as such I and many others would still see our new book as a welcome improvement over the old one even if we were the new Tyranids. which we're not. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/261931-congratulations-heretics-and-traitors/page/4/#findComment-3189581 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 [snip] QFT [snip]Now, if you excuse me, I will be sat waiting by my letter box awaiting the delivery of my ‘Dex… well said Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/261931-congratulations-heretics-and-traitors/page/4/#findComment-3189592 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfalypse Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 How many games have you play tested to see how noncompetitive it is? Just curious. . . There are a TON of bright spots in the rumors, though I could sit here and list them I wont change your mind because you are set in your thought process already. chaos space marines, our staple unit, seems good and very customizable now. You have to pay one point per model to make them have their old LD; but then they happen to get Hatred: Space Marines as well. Plague Marines are up one point, but get plagueknives and will therefore butcher puny stuff that assaults it and not become bogged down which sometimes happened in the gav dex. I say they are as good as before. So no change there. Sons. No change. What we know of Slaneesh cult marines makes them sound like they are way, way better than before. So there is another positive. Next, the Warsmith looks pretty good. Looks like it has a lot of options to make it better as well. Positive again. All the Special Warlord traits in the new dex are WAY better than those in the Rule Book. Only sucks if you roll Black Crusader when not playing Space Marines, but thats the only situational one if I remember correctly from the scan. Surely thats VERY positive? Possessed. Seems weak. Hope we are missing something on it. But they suck less than before at the very least, though still not positive. Defiler. More expensive they all say. Going to cost around 200 points. But it now comes with +5 Invul and It Will Not Die, so I dont know if its worse at all. I think its decent. Fiend thing. Sounds very, very useful. Thats a positive factor again. Dragon has an awsome anti infantry weapon, and 170 points is not that expensive. IMO positive. Havocs: Better, and clearly so. Positive again. Icons? Most of them are actually very good! Some are not so good. Dread: Better now. Can now be used. Clearly positive, Mauler fiend. Seems very agressive and good. Daemon Prince: Going to be expensive and very much so, but we dont yet know its options, only that its going to cost a lot. So Unknown on Daemon Prince. Raptors: Better now according to rumours. Terminators. From what we have heard, they will be decent at least. Mutilators: underwhelming. Warp Talon: Jury is still out and no judgement yet. 30 points jump infantry with lightning claws. Dark Apostle: We dont know all its options, so its an unknown. Sorcerer: We know its dirt cheap and comes with a force weapon for 60 points. Positive surely? Bikes anyone? 90 for 3 including champ and then 20 points per model? Lol, thats ridiculously cheap ! So yes indeed, Smurf, you are very correct. Edit: And guys....Ahriman....Seriously? Way better than before. There are some things that bug me I admit. The Daemon Prince MUST take a mark really erks the crap out of me as a purist Word Bearer player, means I probably will never run one. Possessed are indeed very poor sounding from the pics that were leaked, in fact i would say that they are overall worse than they were before unless there something that is being missed. To be honest, that is about all that really gets me, I even think Mutilators will find their place and do okay for themselves. Just a feeling, but we will see. :lol: One thing I think we all can agree on is a bit of excitement about the possibility of it all. I don't really know the fluff for the word bearers, but I assume they don't have a particular allegiance to a god, and therefore you don't want a mark. Just an Idea, but if you do want to field a daemon prince, just view the mark as something else. for example, he could have been infused with rage after a dark apostle's speech, or he could have bionic implants represent FNP. on topic, I think we juts don't have enough information to base it on. We need to see the full codex, in action, on the tabletop. admittedly there are a lot of rumors which point to both good and bad, but I truly believe that without seeing the full picture, with pts, exact stats and upgrades, etc... then we cant really make a judgement. It is still a mark of a chaos god in my Word Bearers army list, I cannot escape that fact :P Again, I dont bitch about it, it is just something I choose to do. It is sorta like someone explaining why their WB army leans more toward Khorne or Tzeentch or something, mine doesnt lean toward anyone. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/261931-congratulations-heretics-and-traitors/page/4/#findComment-3189596 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfalypse Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 Ahhh, the Chaos forums on B&C, guaranteed to be b*tching needlessly regardless of the status of our Codex! :P :lol: It’s been said before and I’ll say it because it is what I think as well: I’ll wait until I’ve got the Codex, have read it, digested some of the rules and stats BEFORE I complain that we’re not the new GK/BA/SW/Whatever. I got a couple of quick flicks through the new ‘Dex at Games Day, and had a brief Q&A with Mr Kelly; the only things that I saw that disappointed me were Spawn not getting any kind of armour save (unless you roll 1 on a D3!), Cultists not having any abilities beyond being able to blob up and die (apparently Phil Kelly didn’t make them sneaky saboteurs as he didn’t want to annoy Guard players (eh?!?) but mainly because he didn’t want to detract from the focus of the Codex which should always be CSM); and the Daemon Engines only being 12/12/10. Yeah, even though they’re Daemons (5+ Invun) and can Regenerate once per game, they will still die easily to Autocannons etc. The most important thing I wanted going in to this codex was choice, something we sorely lacked previously. I am pleased to say that we will get this. We can play nasty, with our fantastic range of Marine Hating units :P (oh, and stop complaining about DPs not getting EW – they’re T6 now! And WS8 and I7! :D ), blobbing Cultists as meat shields and speed bumps, or we can field a ton of more themed and characterful armies which have a far better chance of working than they did before. Now, if you excuse me, I will be sat waiting by my letter box awaiting the delivery of my ‘Dex… I think they are T5, but I could be wrong :P Either way, I agree with you in that I will be waiting by my mailbox for the postman to show! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/261931-congratulations-heretics-and-traitors/page/4/#findComment-3189597 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cmdr Shepard Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 and the Daemon Engines only being 12/12/10. Yeah, even though they’re Daemons (5+ Invun) and can Regenerate once per game, they will still die easily to Autocannons etc. They regenerate once per turn not per game on a roll of 5+. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/261931-congratulations-heretics-and-traitors/page/4/#findComment-3189626 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 Let us wait until the book is actually out before we pass final judgement shall we? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/261931-congratulations-heretics-and-traitors/page/4/#findComment-3189629 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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