gobei Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 Hi. I have a stupid question. Can a vehicle can use a Inv save in shooting phase? Rulebook says that you can save with it only wounds not penetrating or glancing hits. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/261965-inv-and-vechicles/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 Yes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/261965-inv-and-vechicles/#findComment-3189774 Share on other sites More sharing options...
gobei Posted September 28, 2012 Author Share Posted September 28, 2012 Why do you think so? Rulebook says that you can Inv only wounds, and vehicle dont get them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/261965-inv-and-vechicles/#findComment-3189799 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 Which is evidence of GW's poor rules writing. Here's a question for you. Imagine you're a games designer for GW. You give a vehicle an invulnerable save. But the vehicle can't use it, so what's the point in giving the vehicle an invulnerable save? The rules are poorly written, it doesn't mean we should game them as much as we can. Multiple vehicles have invulnerable saves, and it hasn't been FAQed to say they can't use it. I'd say that they therefore can use it, because it's in their rules. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/261965-inv-and-vechicles/#findComment-3189805 Share on other sites More sharing options...
gobei Posted September 28, 2012 Author Share Posted September 28, 2012 In DE FAQ there is only written that they can use it against dangerous terrain. So maybe this is what was in their mind? Look at SW. They either have rule (acute senses) that cannot use. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/261965-inv-and-vechicles/#findComment-3189807 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 In DE FAQ there is only written that they can use it against dangerous terrain. So maybe this is what was in their mind?Look at SW. They either have rule (acute senses) that cannot use. I use my Space Wolves Acute Senses all the time... Every Scout squad and up to two Grey Hunter squads. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/261965-inv-and-vechicles/#findComment-3189813 Share on other sites More sharing options...
gobei Posted September 28, 2012 Author Share Posted September 28, 2012 So you say that getting a penetrating or glancing hit is equal to getting a unsaved wound? Am I right? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/261965-inv-and-vechicles/#findComment-3189823 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacinda Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 If you are not going to accept the answer, why ask a question? Here, try this: Invulnerable SavesAn Invulnerable Save can be made if it is the best save avaiable. It can even be made if a model is not permitted to take an armor save (because the AP of an Attack negates it or if the rules for a weapon or Attack states that no armor save is allowed). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/261965-inv-and-vechicles/#findComment-3189829 Share on other sites More sharing options...
gobei Posted September 28, 2012 Author Share Posted September 28, 2012 Yes. but page 17 says: they may alweys be taken whenever the model suffers a wound Can a vehicle suffer a wound? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/261965-inv-and-vechicles/#findComment-3189838 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exark Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 Yes, because Bjorn the Fell-Handed has a 5++ (See space wolves codex, I don't have mine on me right now, special rule is Ward of the Primarch). However I think it specifies that it is against glancing/penetrating hits Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/261965-inv-and-vechicles/#findComment-3189852 Share on other sites More sharing options...
gobei Posted September 28, 2012 Author Share Posted September 28, 2012 Exacly. It is specified that it is against glncing/penetrating hits. Flickerfield from DE has only specified that they can use it against dengerous terrain test Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/261965-inv-and-vechicles/#findComment-3189863 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacinda Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 OK, so p17 says it can be used when a model suffers a wound. p26 has no restrictions. They are not mutually exclusive. If a model has an invulnerable save it makes use it if it is the best save available. Look, we have two rules here in regards to invulnerable saves. Page 17 says if you have an invulnerable save and have taken a wound, you may use the save. That is all it says. Do not try to read more into it than that. This is simply stating one case. Page 26 says you may use the invulnerable save if it is the best save possible. This is another case in the list of possibilities. So right now I have 2 reasons where I can use the invulnerable save. Let's apply this concept to another rule. Assaulting after disembarking. You can not assault on the turn you disembarked. Simple. If you disembarked from a vehicle with an assault ramp, you are allowed to assault. Sweet. We're good here. What if I disembark from an open-topped vehicle? Well ... we can assault! But you say, open topped vehicles do not have assault ramps. I say ... so what? It says they can assault from an open topped vehicle. See? Not fitting one allowance does not automatically exclude all other places where it is allowed. Therefore, Invulnerable Saves may always be taken IF it is the best save available. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/261965-inv-and-vechicles/#findComment-3189880 Share on other sites More sharing options...
gobei Posted September 28, 2012 Author Share Posted September 28, 2012 So if glancing/penetraiting hit is equal to suffering a wound, so in that manner i can use FnP on my vehicle. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/261965-inv-and-vechicles/#findComment-3189883 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacinda Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 Flickerfield from DE has only specified that they can use it against dengerous terrain test Let's not obfuscate the FAQ's here. Flickerfield is stated to be usable against dangerous terrain tests. Yes, that is the only thing stated but it also implies that the flickerfield can used against shooting and also dangerous terrain results. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/261965-inv-and-vechicles/#findComment-3189893 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacinda Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 So if glancing/penetraiting hit is equal to suffering a wound, so in that manner i can use FnP on my vehicle. No one is saying they have wounds at all nor does it matter with regards to the original question. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/261965-inv-and-vechicles/#findComment-3189896 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 So if glancing/penetraiting hit is equal to suffering a wound, so in that manner i can use FnP on my vehicle. I wondered where this was going... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/261965-inv-and-vechicles/#findComment-3189981 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 So if glancing/penetraiting hit is equal to suffering a wound, so in that manner i can use FnP on my vehicle. If GW gives a vehicle Feel No Pain, then it could be argued that the vehicle is meant to benefit from Feel No Pain. Arguing that a vehicle with a special rule can't benefit from that rule because of a legalese interpretation of the wording is well ;):. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/261965-inv-and-vechicles/#findComment-3189984 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ming Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 1. There are some current vehicles that have 5+ invulnerable and some with "permanant" or "jink" cover type saves. 2. The new Chaos book coming out has demon war engines having 5+ invulnerable or so saves. Just a heads up. 3. It means you roll to hit, if hit, the opponent rolls the save, if saved, move on, if not, proceed as normal. 4. Cover vs Invulnerable is an important distiction, because some weapons ignore cover saves. Not a big deal. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/261965-inv-and-vechicles/#findComment-3190030 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellevild Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 1. There are some current vehicles that have 5+ invulnerable and some with "permanant" or "jink" cover type saves. 2. The new Chaos book coming out has demon war engines having 5+ invulnerable or so saves. Just a heads up. 3. It means you roll to hit, if hit, the opponent rolls the save, if saved, move on, if not, proceed as normal. 4. Cover vs Invulnerable is an important distiction, because some weapons ignore cover saves. Not a big deal. Soooo...a divination libby could give my stormraven a 4++ if he is inside an casts Forewarning? Or just the models in his unit? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/261965-inv-and-vechicles/#findComment-3190480 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 1. There are some current vehicles that have 5+ invulnerable and some with "permanant" or "jink" cover type saves. 2. The new Chaos book coming out has demon war engines having 5+ invulnerable or so saves. Just a heads up. 3. It means you roll to hit, if hit, the opponent rolls the save, if saved, move on, if not, proceed as normal. 4. Cover vs Invulnerable is an important distiction, because some weapons ignore cover saves. Not a big deal. Soooo...a divination libby could give my stormraven a 4++ if he is inside an casts Forewarning? Or just the models in his unit? How is that different from Shield of Sanguinius? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/261965-inv-and-vechicles/#findComment-3190484 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellevild Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 First of all Shield of Sang is affecting all units within 6" so no doubt its affecting the raven, and then it is a cover save. The question in this thread is about vehicles and inv saves. Forewarning is an inv. so does the raven get it. I know I am also asking a question off this threads topic: does Forewarning affect the transport if the libby is inside? Sorry about poor grammar and such...I am danish and I have a hangover... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/261965-inv-and-vechicles/#findComment-3190498 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 First of all Shield of Sang is affecting all units within 6" so no doubt its affecting the raven, And Forewarning affects one unit within 12" and then it is a cover save. Both are Psychic powers which confer a Save. One is a Blessing type, the other is a Codex power which acts similarly to a Blessing type. The question in this thread is about vehicles and inv saves. Forewarning is an inv. so does the raven get it. Of course the SR "gets" the save. The real question is "does it benefit from the Inv. save it gets", and that question has been answered. I know I am also asking a question off this threads topic: does Forewarning affect the transport if the libby is inside? Sorry about poor grammar and such...I am danish and I have a hangover... No sweat. Hope I answered your question without coming across as snippy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/261965-inv-and-vechicles/#findComment-3190502 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellevild Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 Good answer, thanks...I am trying to find out if the raven gets the save if I give it to the squad inside...being their transport. So kind of a double protection, first to save the raven from shooting, then to save the squad from the crash.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/261965-inv-and-vechicles/#findComment-3190509 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellevild Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 Good answer, thanks...I am trying to find out if the raven gets the save if I give it to the squad inside...being their transport. So kind of a double protection, first to save the raven from shooting, then to save the squad from the crash.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/261965-inv-and-vechicles/#findComment-3190512 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 Good answer, thanks...I am trying to find out if the raven gets the save if I give it to the squad inside...being their transport. So kind of a double protection, first to save the raven from shooting, then to save the squad from the crash.. I would say 'no', as the squad and the transport are two seperate units. Forewarning can only affect one unit. Also, if I'm not mistaken, an embarked psycher can't affect any unit other than the unit he is attached to with non-Witchfire powers. Sp to affect the Stormraven (or any other vehicle) he would have to be disembarked. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/261965-inv-and-vechicles/#findComment-3190538 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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