Legatus Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 I never cease to be amazed at how so many fans will argue against the Chaos Gods having a hand in the creation of the Primarchs till they are blue in the face. It seems more obvious if said fans are aware of some older lore. "The Chaos Powers sensed the presence of the New Man and his efforts to curb their own powers and growth. Even before they became fully conscious the Chaos Powers recognised the Emperor as their greatest enemy." (Realms of Chaos - The Lost and the Damned, p. 176) "The Emperor's most long-sighted plan to counter the insiduous influences of the Chaos Powers was the creation of the Primarchs: (...) The Primarchs were to be shining examples of humans free from the taint of corruption. The energy of the uncorrupted warp would flow through them as it flowed through the Emperor himself, invigorating them and conferring special powers such as were possessed by the shamans of old. Unfortunately, things did not go quite according to plan. Despite the Emperor's best attempts to shield the project from the penetrating eyes of the Chaos Powers they still managed to learn of it." (Realms of Chaos - The Lost and the Damned, p. 178) In that old lore, the Chaos Gods unamgiguously were not involved in the creation of the Primarchs. They perceived the Emperor as their greatest threat, as did the Emperor perceive them as a great threat for mankind. He did everything he could to keep the creation of the Primarchs secret from the Chaos Gods, and the Primarchs were meant to be imbued with pure warp energy. Now, this is from 1st Edition, where everything has to be taken with a grain of salt. But knowing this old background, one will have serious doubts about claims by the Chaos Gods, trying to corrupt a Primarch or a Marine Commander, that the Emperor had some kind of deal with them. Theoretical: It would beimpossible to utilize warp sorcery on the scale of creating twenty demigods without involving the Dark Gods in some way, shape or form, considering that such sorceries would draw on the lifeblood of the Ruinous Powers themselves. The Chaos Gods are not all there is. There are the Eldar Gods, and the Ork Gods, for example. The Emperor himself was created by the combination of thousands of shamanic souls, according to older lore. If the Emperor wanted to create some form of pure warp energy, the Chaos Gods would be the last source to get it from. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262017-were-the-legions-botched/page/2/#findComment-3193069 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Good gravy, I didn't realize how many grammar errors were in that post until I saw you quote it, Legatus. I will defer to your knowledge on the older stuff, since I came in the 2000s and pretty much the only thing I know about said older stuff is what I've picked up by osmosis on the B & C. I still don't see the Emperor being able to get pure Warp energy without dealing with the Ruinous Powers, though. If I remember right, Slaanesh ate the entire Eldar panthone except for the Laughing God and Isha, who is stuck in Nurgle's garden, so they don't seem a likely source of juice. As for Gork and Mork... that is actually frighteningly possible, they might do it if Emps promised them the greatest war ever and said war is still going 10,000 years later. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262017-were-the-legions-botched/page/2/#findComment-3193097 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TennisBall Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 So is there a fluff reason why the Emperor never told his sons about the dangers of Chaos? If he had, it seems he could have avoided problems with Magnus and Lorgar especially and maybe given Fulgrim pause to think about the Laer and that nice sword of theirs. By leaving his sons in ignorance, he ended up damning half of them and damaging the rest. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262017-were-the-legions-botched/page/2/#findComment-3193113 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 If I remember right, Slaanesh ate the entire Eldar panthone except for the Laughing God and Isha, who is stuck in Nurgle's garden, so they don't seem a likely source of juice. As for Gork and Mork... that is actually frighteningly possible, they might do it if Emps promised them the greatest war ever and said war is still going 10,000 years later. I don't think the Emperor would have acquired "pure warp energy" from any of the alien gods. I merely referred to them as other examples of powerufl warp creatures other than the Chaos Gods. The Emperor himself has incredibly potent psychic powers. But warp energy may not always have to be linked to a conscious warp creature. There are technologies that deal with warp energy. But one thing is for certain: You would not get uncorrupted warp energy from the Chaos Gods. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262017-were-the-legions-botched/page/2/#findComment-3193115 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinsanity Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 I've always been one to think the whole 'stolen by the Chaos gods' explanation didn't make much sense... The Primarchs all seemed to have been created with intended qualities and flaws (maybe not the flaws, but each were to be the embodiment of a virtue/trait it seems...) We could for example say that : Horus is the embodiment of Balance, Cruze is an avatar of Justice, Fulgrim is Perfectionism, Sanguinius Charisma, and so forth.. (no, my list is probably not accurate, but that is beside the point). The whole scathering seems like a means to an end, a way to shape the Primarchs into the being they were meant to be. And the worlds they stumbled unto all seemed predestined for their respective primarch. What would have happened to Sanguinius if he had landed on Caliban? How would anyone but Russ have faired on Fenris? And what is the Canis Helix anyway? How come the World Eaters were already known to be particularly violent before they ever met Angron? Or why were the Word Bearers already known as the Imperial Heralds before they started to follow Preacher Aurelian? Since their nature seems to be tied as much to their genetics (see the WE and WB above) as to their homeworld (WE, RG, Sal, AL, NL, etc...), the choice of locations for their landing is fortunate indeed. Or maybe, as I said earlier, it was very much intended... (Note : hopefully this made as much sense here as it seemed to in my addled brain.. :lol:) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262017-were-the-legions-botched/page/2/#findComment-3193187 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 The Primarchs all seemed to have been created with intended qualities and flaws (maybe not the flaws, but each were to be the embodiment of a virtue/trait it seems...) Not really, but it is fun to interpret such characteristics onto them. About half of the Primarchs turned to the Dark Gods because of where they grew up. Of the loyalist Primarchs, some landed on brutal and deadly worlds with primitive cultures (Russ, Khan, Vulkan), but they did not turn out to become savages and easy prey for the Chaos Gods. Jonson landed on a world that was plagued by Chaos beasts, and later half of his Legion would turn, but Jonson himself remained loyal. The world Guilliman landed on was ruled by two consuls, one of which was noble and virtuous, the other selfish and corrup. It just so happens that Guilliman was raised by the noble consul (and according to the Ultramarines Index Astartes, only because the consul received a vision from a golden armoured warrior telling him of the child's arrival). Had he been raised by the other one, he would have turned out very different. Sanguinius landed on a world full of different mutant cults, but he was found by a tribe of pure blood. In light of how half of the Primarchs turned to the Dark Gods, most influenced by their upbringing, and how even several of the loyal Primarchs could potentially have turned if their upbringing had only been a bit different, it does make sense that the Primarchs were scattered by the Chaos Gods, and not by the Emperor. Though in some cases (such as with Guilliman) it seems that he attempted to intervene and influence events for the better. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262017-were-the-legions-botched/page/2/#findComment-3193226 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 It is fun to imagine how the cards might have been re-shuffled if the Primarchs landed on different worlds. Roboute Guilliman was very much a loyal son to Konor...what if he'd been raised by the Tyrant of Barbus instead? Would he have rebelled as Mortarion did, or would he have put his energies into streamlining and organizing his father's tyranny, producing a dystopian model of efficency, almost a bleak mockery of shining Maccrage? How would Fulgrim have dealt with the life of a gladiator and the Butcher's Nails? Would he have become a mad raider like Angron, or instead would he have focused on controlling and focusing the rage, using it as fuel for his endless quest for martial perfection? How would Konrad Curze have fit in on the plains of the Khan's homeworld, and what would have been the fate of Ferrous Manus on Baal? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262017-were-the-legions-botched/page/2/#findComment-3193228 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinsanity Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 It is fun to imagine how the cards might have been re-shuffled if the Primarchs landed on different worlds. Roboute Guilliman was very much a loyal son to Konor...what if he'd been raised by the Tyrant of Barbus instead? Would he have rebelled as Mortarion did, or would he have put his energies into streamlining and organizing his father's tyranny, producing a dystopian model of efficency, almost a bleak mockery of shining Maccrage? How would Fulgrim have dealt with the life of a gladiator and the Butcher's Nails? Would he have become a mad raider like Angron, or instead would he have focused on controlling and focusing the rage, using it as fuel for his endless quest for martial perfection? How would Konrad Curze have fit in on the plains of the Khan's homeworld, and what would have been the fate of Ferrous Manus on Baal? You know, this sounds like a potentially brilliant narative for a new alternate heresy :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262017-were-the-legions-botched/page/2/#findComment-3193242 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 So is there a fluff reason why the Emperor never told his sons about the dangers of Chaos? If he had, it seems he could have avoided problems with Magnus and Lorgar especially and maybe given Fulgrim pause to think about the Laer and that nice sword of theirs. By leaving his sons in ignorance, he ended up damning half of them and damaging the rest. According to both "A Thousand Sons" and the Collected Vision books the Emperor had warned Magnus of what existed in the Warp. He even spent time after he found Magnus to explore the Warp with Magnus. it was already too late. Magnus had seen the powers of the Warp and was entralled. the mistake the Emperor made was believing Magnus when Magnus said he would stop his sorcerous practices. he should have purged the one eyed mongrl on the spot. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262017-were-the-legions-botched/page/2/#findComment-3193245 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 You know, this sounds like a potentially brilliant narative for a new alternate heresy :P I'm just gonna say what we're all thinking: Much like Spock, Alternate Universe Evil Roboute Guilliman is the best Roboute Guilliman. Which was my one problem with the Dornian Heresy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262017-were-the-legions-botched/page/2/#findComment-3193250 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 According to both "A Thousand Sons" and the Collected Vision books the Emperor had warned Magnus of what existed in the Warp. He even spent time after he found Magnus to explore the Warp with Magnus. it was already too late. Magnus had seen the powers of the Warp and was entralled. the mistake the Emperor made was believing Magnus when Magnus said he would stop his sorcerous practices. he should have purged the one eyed mongrl on the spot. WLK Oh WLK. You're like like the Patton of Space Wolves. Seriously though, Magnus was not enthralled by the powers of the warp per se, he just thought that the warp could be used gainfully. You know, like what Rune Priests do :P . Then the Big E wigged out and send sent a bunch of angry Norsemen to kill him, then when all was said and done the only Legion without Librarians ended up being the World Eaters, y'know, that eternal bastion of faith and loyalty to the Imperial cause. As for the primarchs growing up in different environments I'm not sure how much I buy that. Perturabo grew up in a stable and even loving environment but he was just a *bad man* by nature and overthrew his adopted father to conquer Olympia. Similarly I'd argue that Curze and Angron were both just angry, unstable, and dangerous people and no amount of coddling would change that. I mean would they be quite as crazy if they didn't grow up butchering people? Maybe, but I still wouldn't trust either of those crackpots with a legion. Unless I meant to give a legion to a sociopath so that I could get him to be my enforcer and rule by fear and then claim no knowledge so as to wash my hands of it. But I'd have to be a real idiot to actually trust them to stay on their leashes. Yeah, a real idiot. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262017-were-the-legions-botched/page/2/#findComment-3193255 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleanse And Purify Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 As for the primarchs growing up in different environments I'm not sure how much I buy that. Perturabo grew up in a stable and even loving environment but he was just a *bad man* by nature and overthrew his adopted father to conquer Olympia. Similarly I'd argue that Curze and Angron were both just angry, unstable, and dangerous people and no amount of coddling would change that. I mean would they be quite as crazy if they didn't grow up butchering people? Maybe, but I still wouldn't trust either of those crackpots with a legion. Unless I meant to give a legion to a sociopath so that I could get him to be my enforcer and rule by fear and then claim no knowledge so as to wash my hands of it. But I'd have to be a real idiot to actually trust them to stay on their leashes. Yeah, a real idiot. I'm not sure that's entirely correct. We know nothing of Angron other than his enslavement and modification by his captors. He could have been anything, but he was ruined from the earliest age. The Night Haunter I'm not sure about, but it seems he did have a latent desire to kill (I imagine all the Primarchs did actually) as he is noted as the only one to grasp a weapon as his first action. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262017-were-the-legions-botched/page/2/#findComment-3193259 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 I don't think he was the only, Angron killed a bunch of Eldar as an infant right after he crash landed. You could argue that any primarch could have done that but he was the only one that the Eldar actually bothered to try to kill, this implies to me that most of his "possible futures" involved causing trouble. Also as has been pointed out his legion was already a little bonkers before he showed up and modified them which seems to have been a genetic trait inherited from him without his actual presence. So we don't *know* but we can guess that he was at least a rather martial fellow and at worst a psychopath and being made a gladiator only made him worse. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262017-were-the-legions-botched/page/2/#findComment-3193268 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 According to both "A Thousand Sons" and the Collected Vision books the Emperor had warned Magnus of what existed in the Warp. He even spent time after he found Magnus to explore the Warp with Magnus. it was already too late. Magnus had seen the powers of the Warp and was entralled. the mistake the Emperor made was believing Magnus when Magnus said he would stop his sorcerous practices. he should have purged the one eyed mongrl on the spot. WLK Oh WLK. You're like like the Patton of Space Wolves. Seriously though, Magnus was not enthralled by the powers of the warp per se, he just thought that the warp could be used gainfully. You know, like what Rune Priests do B) . Then the Big E wigged out and send sent a bunch of angry Norsemen to kill him, then when all was said and done the only Legion without Librarians ended up being the World Eaters, y'know, that eternal bastion of faith and loyalty to the Imperial cause. As for the primarchs growing up in different environments I'm not sure how much I buy that. Perturabo grew up in a stable and even loving environment but he was just a *bad man* by nature and overthrew his adopted father to conquer Olympia. Similarly I'd argue that Curze and Angron were both just angry, unstable, and dangerous people and no amount of coddling would change that. I mean would they be quite as crazy if they didn't grow up butchering people? Maybe, but I still wouldn't trust either of those crackpots with a legion. Unless I meant to give a legion to a sociopath so that I could get him to be my enforcer and rule by fear and then claim no knowledge so as to wash my hands of it. But I'd have to be a real idiot to actually trust them to stay on their leashes. Yeah, a real idiot. funny use of "entralled", because on page 91 of the Collected Visions they say obsessed with the "power and beauty it promised him" and the Emperor "wigged out"? Maybe he had cause to, as (page 94) "then the Emperor had shared with Magnus secrets of the warp to which only they were privy. Now Magnus appeared to have ignored the Emperor's warnings and was at the very least dabbling in the black arts of sorcery." "A Thousand Sons" reveals Magnus made deals with warp powers to ward off the destruction of his Legion, thinking he could win out in the end. the only reason i post this so often is because people always say "why didnt the Emperor help Magnus? the Emperor is a jerk-face and Magnus was a victim" when the complete opposite is true. now either nobody else read the instances where Magnus pulled crap or nobody feels like posting. I'll take the 5 minutes and point out that the Emperor had, but Magnus didnt listen. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262017-were-the-legions-botched/page/2/#findComment-3193295 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Yeah but the Emperor himself dabbles in the warp, sure it's not "sorcery" per se because he doesn't make pacts with daemons, at least as far as we know, but Magnus wasn't really serving Chaos until he absolutely had to. The Emperor was being condescending and kind of autistic with the whole "do as I say not as I do for reasons I'm not going to really explain because the daemons that I don't want you making pacts with don't exist". And again, other legions get to apparently keep their Librarians and it's all ok. To me it's just semantics anyway, Chaos is not "bad" in of itself, it's just dangerous, and the Emperor feared it because it offered a source of power that wasn't through him and that could be used to challenge him. Sure Chaos followers aren't exactly free but at least they get to indulge themselves, the Emperor's followers don't even get that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262017-were-the-legions-botched/page/2/#findComment-3193313 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 The Emperor does not "dabble in the warp". The old lore described him as the greatest enemy of Chaos. The shamans of old had forseen the rise of Chaos and what it would do to the spiritual realm, so they "formed" the Emperor so that he and through him mankind would be able to stand against Chaos. The 2nd+ background has not really picked up on all of those details, but even in the lore since then it is obvious that the Emperor is not just the guy who at some point took charge and now orders everyone around, he is an imensely powerful being, and he is opposed to chaos. To me it's just semantics anyway, Chaos is not "bad" in of itself, it's just dangerous, and the Emperor feared it because it offered a source of power that wasn't through him and that could be used to challenge him. Chaos is not "neutral", and it is not a "force of nature". It does not have positive qualities that balance the negatives. Chaos is malicious, it corrupts everything. It actively seeks suffering of mortals and souls. They are evil space gods, wholly different from the other benevolent deities that do exist. In the grim darkness of the far future, the concept of evil is very real. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262017-were-the-legions-botched/page/2/#findComment-3193322 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 It's evil to you Legatus. Evil is not an objective concept, either in 40k, or anywhere. And by definition Chaos is formed of the thoughts and emotions of mortals, it is a subset of that which is already within is, it's not introducing anything new, it's just sharpening that which is already there. Oh and there certainly are positives, even in our sense of evil, Nurgle gives comfort to the hopeless and fearful, Khorne offers power, skill, and honor, and Tzeentch offers knowledge. Slaanesh is really the only one who royally screws over his own followers as well as everyone else, though again, he does offer pleasure and experience. Oh and the Emperor is opposed to the Chaos gods, not to the warp (and by extension Chaos in general) as he fully sanctioned and even by "lighting" it with his psychic presence expressly allowed for its use in transportation and communication. He's not a nice guy. Depending on your point of view he is nicer than the Chaos Gods, but it's not nearly as cut and dry as you make it out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262017-were-the-legions-botched/page/2/#findComment-3193328 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 for once, I agree with Legs. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262017-were-the-legions-botched/page/2/#findComment-3193330 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 I know. Both of you guys really like to defend the Imperial Truth :D . I don't know, I just suppose if I lived in-universe I'd turn to Chaos too. Power, knowledge, indulgence and immortality all for the price of your soul, which would flow into the warp upon death anyway. Or be sacrificed to feed the Golden Throne. The whole Big Brother thing the Emeperor had going (and the Imperium still does) really turns me off, Chaos allows you to really live instead of just exist for the sake of a massive faceless edifice that never notices your passing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262017-were-the-legions-botched/page/2/#findComment-3193334 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Evil is not an objective concept, either in 40k, or anywhere. In fiction it very much is. In the world of Dungeons & Dragons, for example, there are tangible physical attributes associated with a "good" or an "evil" alignment of an individual. In such instances, "good" is usually described as not causing others harm or suffering unless threatened, while "evil" characters are dismissive of the well-being of others or even delight in causing others harm. In the world of Warhammer 40K, Games Workshop devised dark space gods coming from a hellish dimension who command horrifying armies of bloodthirsty daemons and grotesquely warped warriors who relish in the mayhem they cause. The Chaos Gods are evil because this is a fictional setting, and they were devised for specifically that role. And by definition Chaos is formed of the thoughts and emotions of mortals, it is a subset of that which is already within is, it's not introducing anything new, it's just sharpening that which is already there. The Chaos entities are formed from the negative emotions. That is the crucial point. Here is a description from the Realms of Chaos books: "Originally the warp was filled with the natural psychic forces of animals and plants, so that its energies flowed harmoniously and fluidly, creating a unifying force that moved psychically through all living creatures. When the first intelligent races developed, their individual and extremely potent minds filled the warp with new and very powerful energies. However, while the natural energy of the warp was harmonious, the souls of men were often troubled, obsessive, guilt ridden, or otherwise imperfect. These negative energies congregated together in the warp, drawn to each other by mutual attraction, until they formed troublesome spots of disharmony, rather like a canker on a living tree or a tumour in an animal. These disharmonious forces eventually became the Chaos Powers, psychic entities created from the fears, repressions and inadequacies of humans and other intelligent species." (Realms of Chaos - The Lost and the Damned, p. 174) Oh and the Emperor is opposed to the Chaos gods, not to the warp (and by extension Chaos in general) One should not confuse "chaos" with "the warp", even if some GW sources state that the two are indivisible. There still are warp creatures and even deities that are not purely malign. According to the old lore quoted above, the warp was harmoneous before Chaos started to grow and manifest a consciousnes. And according to the quote I had posted earlier, the Emperor sought to infuse the Primarchs with pure and uncorrupted warp energy. Apparently there is at least the concept of uncorrupted warp energy, though during 30-40K it seems that warp energy is usually corrupted. He's not a nice guy. Depending on your point of view he is nicer than the Chaos Gods, but it's not nearly as cut and dry as you make it out. He was in earlier sources. In 3rd and later editions GW has made his motives more ambiguous, but in earlier editions he was unambiguously a benevolent figure for mankind. "For thirty eight thousand years the New Man wandered over the Earth and through human history. At first he merely observed the world about him, but soon he began to help where he could, using his ancient wisdom to spread efficient government, crop management, animal husbandry, technology, and peace. He always used his influence carefully, adopting the guise of a normal man, and without revealing his true nature. Over the millennia the Emperor watched the human race develop. He travelled the entire globe, watching and helping, sometimes adopting the persona of a great leader or advisor. In times of trouble he became a crusader, a religious leader or messiah, at other times he remained a back-stage contributor to events, an advisor to kings, a court magician, a pioneering scientist. Many of his guises he adopted were humble, others became monumental figures of world history or religion. At times of crisis he would be there, steering the human race along a narrow path that he alone could see. (...) As the human race prospered the warp became increasingly disturbed so that its flow could no longer sustain the planet as it once had. The New Man was aware of how the extreme sides of the human character were feeding the Chaos Powers. Despite his best efforts to promote peace and harmony, the instinctive values of martial honour, ambition, defiance, and self-satisfaction could never be eradicated. Some of the New Man's plans were less than successful: seeds of wisdom often failed to flourish or grew into uncontrollable monstrosities leading to persecution and war. The Chaos Powers sensed the presence of the New Man and his efforts to curb their own power and growth. Even before they became fully conscious the Chaos Powers recognised the Emperor as their greatest enemy. Khorne was the first of the Great Powers to wake fully, and an era of wars and conflict raged across the globe." (Realms of Chaos - The Lost and the Damned, p. 175/176) "The birth pangs of Slaanesh made it all the more necessary that humanity progress as quickly as possible. Warp travel became increasingly difficult as the horror-torn dreams of Slaanesh became more intense. Even the other Powers of Chaos were weakened as the whole fabric of the warp writhed and twisted with tempestuous warp storms. As a result, space travel became almost impossible, and many worlds were isolated for long periods of time. Human society broke apart and Earth was cut off from the rest of the galaxy alltogether. This was the Age of Strife in human history - an age of anarchy and madness which even the New Man was powerless to prevent. The Age of Strife was only ended with the birth of Slaanesh, an event which was to bring new problems and fresh dangers. (...) The whole structure of the warp was affected by the growth of the Chaos Powers, so that everywhere in the galaxy the psychic energies embodied by the Chaos Powers began to corrupt the natural energies of living things. While Earth was cut off by warp storms it was also protected from the malefic influences of Chaos which were already corrupting much of the human population of the galaxy - both in mind and in body. It was, as the New Man knew, only a temporary respite. Once Slaanesh awoke, the incredible disturbance to the warp would disrupt its already enfeebled flow. After almost forty thousand years it was time for the New Man to take a direct hand in the future of humanity. It was time for him to become the Emperor. On Earth the well ordered civilisations of the past were gone. Government had degenerated into global anarchy. From that anarchy the Emperor emerged - a saviour in the time of ultimate crisis. He led armies from the Antarctic to Greenland, from the deserts of Amazonia to the mountains of Africa, his followers evergrowing in number and strength. His message was clear and vital: unite humanity and bring order to the galaxy." (Realms of Chaos - The Lost and the Damned, p. 175/176) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262017-were-the-legions-botched/page/2/#findComment-3193354 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobointherain Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 I'm afraid I was too lazy to read every post on this so apologies if this has already been stated.... I think its important to remember that the Emperor in his wisdom created the Thunder Warriors of the Unification Wars to 'expire' after a set period of time, as tumours and cancers destroy their bodies. Mentioned in The Outcast Dead Perhaps the big E intended a similar fate for SOME of the space marines? With the galaxy conquered he would have no need for legions of berzerkers such as the blood angels or the wolves? Perhaps some of the more 'stable' legions were created free from flaws because the Emperor knew that they would be needed to act as security forces etc or something along those lines? its just a theory and it has its holes for sure. But i bet its not too far from the truth. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262017-were-the-legions-botched/page/2/#findComment-3193443 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 @Hobointherain: that is a THEORY mentioned in "The Outcast Dead", one we currently have no way to verify. and what would be the point of going through the efforts of making the thunder warriors of they all had a expiration date? what is the war for terra took longer than it did? what good would it do to have your soldiers dying outside of combat from tumors and such? your army would kill itself. I personally believe the thunder warriors were a flawed project, but not a intentionally flawed project. the emperor learned from this project and "perfected" it to start the creation of the space marines. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262017-were-the-legions-botched/page/2/#findComment-3193677 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azekai Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 I personally believe the thunder warriors were a flawed project, but not a intentionally flawed project. the emperor learned from this project and "perfected" it to start the creation of the space marines. They weren't flawed. They were the perfect tools for the job; nothing more, and nothing less. He was in earlier sources. In 3rd and later editions GW has made his motives more ambiguous, but in earlier editions he was unambiguously a benevolent figure for mankind. And then they realized that such an obvious good/evil dichotomy is boring and solipsistic. Hence the more hopeless ambiguity of modern fluff. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262017-were-the-legions-botched/page/2/#findComment-3193702 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 funny use of "entralled", because on page 91 of the Collected Visions they say obsessed with the "power and beauty it promised him" and the Emperor "wigged out"? Maybe he had cause to, as (page 94) "then the Emperor had shared with Magnus secrets of the warp to which only they were privy. Now Magnus appeared to have ignored the Emperor's warnings and was at the very least dabbling in the black arts of sorcery." and that description does not nessecarily match up to the one in A Thousand Sons, where it's revealed that Magnus did it to save his Legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262017-were-the-legions-botched/page/2/#findComment-3193707 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 funny use of "entralled", because on page 91 of the Collected Visions they say obsessed with the "power and beauty it promised him" and the Emperor "wigged out"? Maybe he had cause to, as (page 94) "then the Emperor had shared with Magnus secrets of the warp to which only they were privy. Now Magnus appeared to have ignored the Emperor's warnings and was at the very least dabbling in the black arts of sorcery." and that description does not nessecarily match up to the one in A Thousand Sons, where it's revealed that Magnus did it to save his Legion. i could reply that the road to hell is paved with good intentions... but rather i'll say that dealing with any powers of the warp is a mistake, and he was warned against it by the Emperor himself. if the gene-seed of the thousand sons were killing them, then maybe the galaxy would have been better off with them dead. dead and loyal, or alive (in their current fashion) and traitors to the emperor and mankind. for me, that is a easy decision. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262017-were-the-legions-botched/page/2/#findComment-3193756 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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