Were the Legions Botched?

[Gree]

but rather i'll say that dealing with any powers of the warp is a mistake,

 

Define ''dealing''. After all, all psykers technically deal with the powers of the warp.

 

and he was warned against it by the Emperor himself.

 

Who is always right of course. :tu:

 

if the gene-seed of the thousand sons were killing them, then maybe the galaxy would have been better off with them dead.

 

dead and loyal, or alive (in their current fashion) and traitors to the emperor and mankind.

 

for me, that is a easy decision.

 

WLK

 

They are not your sons and not your men. From your position it's easy to say that. That is not an easy predicament or an easy choice.

 

And why did't the Emperor help the Thousand Sons then? Surely with his flawless knowledge and power it should be easy? Why even give them the illusion of hope then? Or allow them to exist?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

psychics skim their powers from warp energy. Magnus brokers deal with warp entities. there is a WOLRD of difference.

 

until we know all the Emperor's goals and plan, or at the very least have a few direct thoughts from him, judging his actions makes as much sense as a ant judging the actions of a adult. the guy plans the LONG game, having prepped humanity for 30k years for their expansion into space. who knows what the guy's intentions were for the Thousand Sons. but if he created them there must be a reason as to why.

look at the Blood Angels: sure their Black Rage is a curse, and will eventually wipe them out like the flesh tearers...but how many worlds and systems have been saved by it? and look at what happens when a being is able to harness the Black Rage (mephiston)? surely the loss of a hundred, or even the entire chapter is a worthwhile price to pay when the reward is the galaxy.

 

and your right, its not my troops or my sons. Its Magnus's choice to make. A genetically created superbeing who was taught the peaks of humanity's knowledge in order to make such hard decisions. Its a superbeing who's purpose is to be the generals needed to win the long war. to win the galaxy for humanity. But apparently Magnus's sons were worth humanity's future.

 

(i want to say this is my opinion in regards to the sci-fi pretend world of 40k, where daemons and monsters exist.)

 

WLK

[Gree]

psychics skim their powers from warp energy. Magnus brokers deal with warp entities. there is a WOLRD of difference.

 

Both deal with the warp, just to different degrees.

 

until we know all the Emperor's goals and plan, or at the very least have a few direct thoughts from him, judging his actions makes as much sense as a ant judging the actions of a adult. the guy plans the LONG game, having prepped humanity for 30k years for their expansion into space. who knows what the guy's intentions were for the Thousand Sons. but if he created them there must be a reason as to why.

 

''He must have a reason'' is not exactly a good argument when appearantly said flesh change was not desired by the Emperor. The Black rage is also rather different from the flesh change, that has no positive effect at all.

 

and your right, its not my troops or my sons. Its Magnus's choice to make. A genetically created superbeing who was taught the peaks of humanity's knowledge in order to make such hard decisions. Its a superbeing who's purpose is to be the generals needed to win the long war. to win the galaxy for humanity. But apparently Magnus's sons were worth humanity's future.

 

And did Magnus know he was risking humanity future? As far as Magnus knew, said entities in the warp were benevolent. The Emperor warned him, but did the Emperor come by and help him fix that? Did any of his education cover what to do when your own sons start mutating uncontrollably? I doubt it was aas clear cut as you make it out to be, especially as the point of the novel that Magnus did not know the full truth of the Gods in the warp.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

"both deal with the warp, just to different degrees"

 

thats saying, to me, that a police officer beating down a detainee on the way to his cell is the same thing as a police officer walking a detainee to his cell. both are escorting the detainee to his cell, just in different degrees. and thats right to you?

 

''He must have a reason'' is not exactly a good argument when appearantly said flesh change was not desired by the Emperor. The Black rage is also rather different from the flesh change, that has no positive effect at all.

again, your making an assumption here. we dont know what the Emperor's end game was, so to judge it would be premature.

 

maybe the emperor desired space marine spawn? -_-

 

And did Magnus know he was risking humanity future? As far as Magnus knew, said entities in the warp were benevolent. The Emperor warned him, but did the Emperor come by and help him fix that? Did any of his education cover what to do when your own sons start mutating uncontrollably? I doubt it was aas clear cut as you make it out to be, especially as the point of the novel that Magnus did not know the full truth of the Gods in the warp.

 

According to the Collected Visions, "Upon meeting Magnus, the Emperor had cautioned him about the dangers of sorcery and the nature of the warp. The Emperor realised that Magnus was very powerful. Possibly feeling that it was more dangerous for Magnus to remain ignorant of the secrets of the warp than it was for him to know them, the Emperor showed him the truth.

Magnus feigned shock and horror at what the Emperor revealed to him, He immediately agreed ti renounce sorcery ad to re-educate the peoples of Prospero, But Magnus secretly dsmissed the Emperor;s warnigns. he had already peered into the warp with his one great eye and was obsessed with the power and beauty it promised him". So yea, the Emperor warned Magnus, told him what he knew, and then Magnus decided the old man was full of crap and i'll do what i want. pretty straight forward there.

 

WLK

[Hrvat]

There is a difference between Visions and ATS novel. In the old background (IA and Visions) Magnus was cyclopean from the begining or from before he met the emperor, but in the new background (ATS) Magnus sacrifices his eye to an ancient warp entity (that is later revealed as Tzeentch) to save his sons, after he is reuinted with the legion.

 

So both of you are right it is just the choice what background to put first.

[Gree]

thats saying, to me, that a police officer beating down a detainee on the way to his cell is the same thing as a police officer walking a detainee to his cell. both are escorting the detainee to his cell, just in different degrees. and thats right to you?

 

They are still escorting him to the cell. No matter how you want to put it. Psykers are still dabbling in the warp no matter to what degree. Magnus did more than most, but it was just an extreme of what many others do.

 

again, your making an assumption here. we dont know what the Emperor's end game was, so to judge it would be premature.

 

But based on the facts we do have it's not looking good for the Emperor. And until we get new facts that's now it is.

 

According to the Collected Visions, "Upon meeting Magnus, the Emperor had cautioned him about the dangers of sorcery and the nature of the warp. The Emperor realised that Magnus was very powerful. Possibly feeling that it was more dangerous for Magnus to remain ignorant of the secrets of the warp than it was for him to know them, the Emperor showed him the truth.

Magnus feigned shock and horror at what the Emperor revealed to him, He immediately agreed ti renounce sorcery ad to re-educate the peoples of Prospero, But Magnus secretly dsmissed the Emperor;s warnigns. he had already peered into the warp with his one great eye and was obsessed with the power and beauty it promised him". So yea, the Emperor warned Magnus, told him what he knew, and then Magnus decided the old man was full of crap and i'll do what i want. pretty straight forward there.

 

Again, that's been pretty much thrown out by A Thousand Sons, were it shows just how naive Magnus is about the Gods in the warp. It's made rather clear just how much Magnus underestimated things.

 

And if the Emperor was educating Magnus on that sort of thing you expect the topic of his Legion's rampant mutations to crop up...

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

QUOTE (Wolf Lord Kieran @ Oct 2 2012, 07:24 PM)

 

thats saying, to me, that a police officer beating down a detainee on the way to his cell is the same thing as a police officer walking a detainee to his cell. both are escorting the detainee to his cell, just in different degrees. and thats right to you?

 

 

They are still escorting him to the cell. No matter how you want to put it. Psykers are still dabbling in the warp no matter to what degree. Magnus did more than most, but it was just an extreme of what many others do.

 

if thats how you see things, then any other debate would be fruitless. good day sir.

 

WLK

[Gree]

QUOTE (Wolf Lord Kieran @ Oct 2 2012, 07:24 PM)

 

thats saying, to me, that a police officer beating down a detainee on the way to his cell is the same thing as a police officer walking a detainee to his cell. both are escorting the detainee to his cell, just in different degrees. and thats right to you?

 

 

They are still escorting him to the cell. No matter how you want to put it. Psykers are still dabbling in the warp no matter to what degree. Magnus did more than most, but it was just an extreme of what many others do.

 

if thats how you see things, then any other debate would be fruitless. good day sir.

 

WLK

 

No it's simply a point I made. I have other points still up that counter your assertions quite handily.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

QUOTE (Wolf Lord Kieran @ Oct 2 2012, 07:24 PM)

 

thats saying, to me, that a police officer beating down a detainee on the way to his cell is the same thing as a police officer walking a detainee to his cell. both are escorting the detainee to his cell, just in different degrees. and thats right to you?

 

 

They are still escorting him to the cell. No matter how you want to put it. Psykers are still dabbling in the warp no matter to what degree. Magnus did more than most, but it was just an extreme of what many others do.

 

if thats how you see things, then any other debate would be fruitless. good day sir.

 

WLK

 

No it's simply a point I made. I have other points still up that counter your assertions quite handily.

 

I have other opinions still up that i believe counter your source quotes quite handily.

 

fixed that for you.

 

WLK

[Gree]

QUOTE (Wolf Lord Kieran @ Oct 2 2012, 07:24 PM)

 

thats saying, to me, that a police officer beating down a detainee on the way to his cell is the same thing as a police officer walking a detainee to his cell. both are escorting the detainee to his cell, just in different degrees. and thats right to you?

 

 

They are still escorting him to the cell. No matter how you want to put it. Psykers are still dabbling in the warp no matter to what degree. Magnus did more than most, but it was just an extreme of what many others do.

 

if thats how you see things, then any other debate would be fruitless. good day sir.

 

WLK

 

No it's simply a point I made. I have other points still up that counter your assertions quite handily.

 

I have other opinions still up that i believe counter your source quotes quite handily.

 

fixed that for you.

 

WLK

 

No you did't. You just changed the words because they counter your assertions and points. All I've done is point out flaws in said assertions.

[Wade Garrett]

until we know all the Emperor's goals and plan, or at the very least have a few direct thoughts from him, judging his actions makes as much sense as a ant judging the actions of a adult.

 

I disagree. Unless the Emperor's plan was to be stuck inside the galaxy's biggest lighthouse for ten thousand years, while his own creations tore his Empire apart, in which case BRAA-VO! I feel quite safe, even in my position as mere mortal, in declaring that he botched the Great Crusade in a truly spectacular fashion. And if we accept your logic that he spent 30,000 years prepping humanity to expand into space, that means we can also blame the Rebellion of the Iron Men, the loss of all the cool toys from the Age of Technology, and the collapse of the human race into Old Night at his doorstep. Bravo, Emperor. Bravo.

[Pulse]

until we know all the Emperor's goals and plan, or at the very least have a few direct thoughts from him, judging his actions makes as much sense as a ant judging the actions of a adult.

 

I disagree. Unless the Emperor's plan was to be stuck inside the galaxy's biggest lighthouse for ten thousand years, while his own creations tore his Empire apart, in which case BRAA-VO! I feel quite safe, even in my position as mere mortal, in declaring that he botched the Great Crusade in a truly spectacular fashion. And if we accept your logic that he spent 30,000 years prepping humanity to expand into space, that means we can also blame the Rebellion of the Iron Men, the loss of all the cool toys from the Age of Technology, and the collapse of the human race into Old Night at his doorstep. Bravo, Emperor. Bravo.

It isn't inconceivable that this is actually part of the Emperor's plan.

 

Still though, there are many factors that could have caused the Emperors plan to derail, either through his own failings through misjudgement or concentrating on projects that were too time consuming for that period when he should have been focussing on the crusade or whatever

 

or

 

(as many chaos players think) he was being blocked, clouded, hindered by the chaos gods and so caused the Emperor to either rush his undertakings or at least put pressure on him causing faults in his works.

[Legatus]

I feel quite safe, even in my position as mere mortal, in declaring that he botched the Great Crusade in a truly spectacular fashion.

Yeah... well... I am not sure you can really call it "botched" when actual gods conspired against him and did everything in their power to oppose him.

 

 

And if we accept your logic that he spent 30,000 years prepping humanity to expand into space, that means we can also blame the Rebellion of the Iron Men, the loss of all the cool toys from the Age of Technology, and the collapse of the human race into Old Night at his doorstep.

The text from the Lost and the Damned sourcebook kind of absolves the Emperor in those regards, explaining that often the seeds of wisdom the Emperor tried to plant were dismissed by the society at that time, or that his advice was misused or misunderstood. It also explains that he was powerless to prevent the Age of Strife that had the entire human realm fall into anarchy. He usually acted as an advisor, attempting to guide humanity, and only during the unification wars he took matters entirely into his own hands.

[Wade Garrett]

@ Legatus:

 

This is purely my opinion, but I think the Emperor was a powerful (though not nearly omnipotent or omniscient) being who did what he thought was best, but had a very "ends justify means" outlook on things. If the Emperor felt that the orphanage full of blind kids needed to be set afire in order to secure a brighter future for the human race, those kids are barbecued. By comparison, the Chaos Gods would burn that orphanage because hey, who doesn't love the smell of burning orphans in the morning? Not that's there's much difference between the two if you happen to be one of those orphans.

[Beef]

There were some hints that the fenrisian wolves were human,

 

really? How so, teh tex was so ambigioius that it made no sence, If the wolves were indeed human than were the fenrisian people the SW recruit from, placed there at a later date? surely not as Russ was raised by them,

 

So were the wolves put on fenris first and they in turn turned into humans? Stupid retconned fluff makes no sence sometimes with writers just trying to be clever with some stupid crackpot ideas and hints.

[Ordos20]

There were some hints that the fenrisian wolves were human,

 

really? How so, teh tex was so ambigioius that it made no sence, If the wolves were indeed human than were the fenrisian people the SW recruit from, placed there at a later date? surely not as Russ was raised by them,

 

So were the wolves put on fenris first and they in turn turned into humans? Stupid retconned fluff makes no sence sometimes with writers just trying to be clever with some stupid crackpot ideas and hints.

 

Prospero burns tries to be ambiguous about it, but it isn't. Which lead to my question about the wolves, seeing as in the tales before the coming of the Emperor, and the rise of Russ as the wolf of Fenris. The Fenrisian wolves were there already. He slew a few and was raised by them. So they can't be from the wulven curse, I would rather say, the wulven curse must have been an interaction between space wolves genes and the fenrisian genes. But what happened to the space wolves before they were reunited with Russ? I still believe Russ, of all the primarchs, stands out the most in being tailored to the enviroment where he ended up, and the enviroment tailored to him. I wonder if we will ever get a proper explanation to that.

[Henricus Divis]

There were some hints that the fenrisian wolves were human,

 

really? How so, teh tex was so ambigioius that it made no sence, If the wolves were indeed human than were the fenrisian people the SW recruit from, placed there at a later date? surely not as Russ was raised by them,

 

So were the wolves put on fenris first and they in turn turned into humans? Stupid retconned fluff makes no sence sometimes with writers just trying to be clever with some stupid crackpot ideas and hints.

 

Prospero burns tries to be ambiguous about it, but it isn't. Which lead to my question about the wolves, seeing as in the tales before the coming of the Emperor, and the rise of Russ as the wolf of Fenris. The Fenrisian wolves were there already. He slew a few and was raised by them. So they can't be from the wulven curse, I would rather say, the wulven curse must have been an interaction between space wolves genes and the fenrisian genes. But what happened to the space wolves before they were reunited with Russ? I still believe Russ, of all the primarchs, stands out the most in being tailored to the enviroment where he ended up, and the enviroment tailored to him. I wonder if we will ever get a proper explanation to that.

 

I thought it had been implied that the Canis Helix was some kind of Dark Age of Technology genetic engineering for adapting colonists to a new environment, that the Emperor later adapted for the Space Wolves, the implication being that Fenris settlers underwent the Canis Helix and it malfunctioned/worked to well and a portion of them became Fenrisian wolves.

[Ordos20]

There were some hints that the fenrisian wolves were human,

 

really? How so, teh tex was so ambigioius that it made no sence, If the wolves were indeed human than were the fenrisian people the SW recruit from, placed there at a later date? surely not as Russ was raised by them,

 

So were the wolves put on fenris first and they in turn turned into humans? Stupid retconned fluff makes no sence sometimes with writers just trying to be clever with some stupid crackpot ideas and hints.

 

Prospero burns tries to be ambiguous about it, but it isn't. Which lead to my question about the wolves, seeing as in the tales before the coming of the Emperor, and the rise of Russ as the wolf of Fenris. The Fenrisian wolves were there already. He slew a few and was raised by them. So they can't be from the wulven curse, I would rather say, the wulven curse must have been an interaction between space wolves genes and the fenrisian genes. But what happened to the space wolves before they were reunited with Russ? I still believe Russ, of all the primarchs, stands out the most in being tailored to the enviroment where he ended up, and the enviroment tailored to him. I wonder if we will ever get a proper explanation to that.

 

I thought it had been implied that the Canis Helix was some kind of Dark Age of Technology genetic engineering for adapting colonists to a new environment, that the Emperor later adapted for the Space Wolves, the implication being that Fenris settlers underwent the Canis Helix and it malfunctioned/worked to well and a portion of them became Fenrisian wolves.

 

Thank you for putting into words what I was thinking, but not writing down.

 

But the implication being that Russ HAD to land on Fenris, otherwise it wouldn't make any sense (remember, the legions were created after there gene father, and needed their genefather in some cases to replenisch the DNA stock). And seeing the spectacular failing of the second founding chapter the Wolf Brothers, not based on Fenris. It makes me wonder what happened to the pre-Russ wolves on earth? As all the legions started out on earth?

 

If this leads to being predetermined where the primarchs would end up, it would change a lot on how we see the primarrchs and their relation to the emperor (and how he botched bringing quite a few back into the fold).

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

this is how i see things in regards to the natives of fenris and their "wolfiness"

 

humanity initially discovers fenris.

all of humanity's attemtps to settle Fernis fail miserably.

humanity cheats and uses science to adapt human settlers on fenris.

this goes on for a while.

humanity goes in dark ages.

without constant supervision and reinforcement of supplies, fenris devolves into the "viking age".

russ comes to fenris (yay russ!), eventually rules planet.

the emperor arrives (yay emperor!), we all know what happens now.

the mixing of the canis helix and whatever science cheats were used earlier has unforseen reaction on future generation of Wolves. (wulfen curse. i dont believe any terran space wolves have been said to have the wulfen curse, AFAIK)

 

so, when cursed Wolves go free in the wild, they are simular enough to already existing genetically modified wolves (from humanity;s earlier attempts to settle fenris) and generally accepted as part of the wolf packs. the wolf packs accept them in cases due to their dominant pack nature.

 

WLK

[Visitor13]

Why were so many of the legions botched? Because GW didn't think things through.

 

Do what I do and forget these flaws ever existed, write them out of your personal fluff etc., except for the stuff you think is cool (in my case that'd only be the Black Rage), and spare yourself the trouble of finding a logical, in-universe reason for something that simply doesn't have one.

[Ordos20]

I know that most of the flaws and planet specifics of the primarchs of the legions have to do with "hey thats cool lets make space vikings, space romans, space knights etc.". Then the primarch concept arrived. They were (ill-fatedly) fitted into this concept. And now with the HH series we try to explain things. But it won't fit. I know this. But its fun to discuss isn't it?

[Crimson Hawk]

Chaos allows you to really live instead of just exist for the sake of a massive faceless edifice that never notices your passing.

I know, right? I'd much rather be permanently enslaved to some monolithic, Lovecraftian entity who honestly doesn't give a :devil: about anything smaller than a C'tan and will capriciously wrack my body with mutation for the lulz.

 

[/sarcasm]

[Rain]

Chaos allows you to really live instead of just exist for the sake of a massive faceless edifice that never notices your passing.

I know, right? I'd much rather be permanently enslaved to some monolithic, Lovecraftian entity who honestly doesn't give a ;) about anything smaller than a C'tan and will capriciously wrack my body with mutation for the lulz.

 

[/sarcasm]

 

As opposed to what? Spending your entire life serving Space-Stalin while denying yourself any personal indulgences and then dying only for your soul to go into the very same warp to be eaten by the very same Lovecraftian entities? That is assuming you aren't thanked for your loyalty by being sacrificed to feed said Space-Stalin's magic chair. Sure the gods don't care but neither do the Emperor or High Lords, and at least the gods promise immortality and power instead of blind duty and obedience.

[Legatus]

Umh...

 

As opposed to what? Spending your entire life serving Space-Stalin while denying yourself any personal indulgences

The societies and cultures on Imperial worlds are all very different, and dependant on however that culture developed. The Imperium only gets involved when the tithes are not payed. And of course the Imperial Cult must be followed. Other than that you can have dictatorships, democracies, theocracies, communist regimes, you name it. As long as the tithes are payed and no being other than the Emperor is venerated, the Imperium will not intervene to alter the socio-political structure of a world.

 

 

Sure the gods don't care but neither do the Emperor or High Lords, and at least the gods promise immortality and power instead of blind duty and obedience.

First of, the Chaos Gods do care. Oh, how they care. They will reach out to each individual of their followers and make sure he commits as many atrocities and suffering in their name as possible. And they will reward him with madness, mutations and sickness. And second, followers of Chaos are not exactly free to do whatever they want. That is not how those deals work. Followers of Chaos are really not just "living their lives". They are puppets.

 

The Imperium will deny you certain things, like the freedom to worship whatever being you want. But it will generally not go out of its way to make sure you have a miserable life, as long as you are no cause for trouble. For the Chaos Gods, making people miserable is exactly what they are after. Ask a Chaos Spawn how great following the Chaos Gods is.

[Rain]

I already admitted that the Chaos gods do not offer true freedom, however the thing is, that the Chaos gods align with what you want anyway. In other words, someone turns to Khorne if they like to fight and kill. Khorne then rewards them with a sword hand, or monstrous strength, or whatever else and they can continue fighting and killing. They still enjoy it, in fact it becomes their driving focus, and Khorne is pleased because this feeds him. As I've already mentioned, Slaanesh is the only one who is really "bad" to his followers in that he numbs them to sensation as well as making them crave more sensation but they still get to indulge in a lot more than any follower of the Emperor.

 

Oh and not all Chaos followers become spawn, some do and some don't, not a great end sure, but no worse than being mind wiped or sent to a gulag but the agents of the beneficent God Emperor for having seen a daemon (like all of the human defenders after the First Armageddon War). So again, while Chaos followers do not have "free will" in the strictest sense it's really missing the point because by devoting themselves to Chaos in the first place they must want to be doing whatever it is that the Gods wants them to do. It's kind of like liking your job, sure it's your job and you "have" to do it to make money, but that does not preclude you from enjoying it, and Chaos kind of definitionally assures that you do.