Were the Legions Botched?

[Wade Garrett]

Legatus is correct: The Chaos Gods are hundreds of times more likely to snack on your soul or turn you to a spawn than elevate you to daemonhood, not to mention you'll be a bloated pus bag, a beat addicted drug fiend, screaming axe murderer, or some awful combination of Cobra Commander and Starscream with tentacles before the end.

Rain is also correct: To be a servant of the Imperium is live in "the cruelest and bloodiest regime imaginable", and spend your time dodging the local equivalents of Commander Chenkov and Inquisitor Karamazov. Plus...cherubs. This is a place where flying lobotomized cyborg babies are a status symbol.

 

The closest thing we have to good guys in this universe are the Tyranids and the 5th edition omnicidal Necrons. And I for one wouldn't have it any other way. AVE GRIM DARKNESS! GRIMDARK VULT!

[Legatus]

Only in extremely rare cases will someone mingling with the Dark Gods turn out exactly how he hoped he would. Followers of Khorne might initially have aspired to be mighty warriors, sure, but how many would have dreamt of a life where they must kill every day to quench their bloodthirst? The 4th Edition Codex Chaos describes for each God how mortals might come to pledge their lives to them. Followers of Khorne desire power, but may initially still have virtues of martial honour. That will not last long once they are truly sworn to Khorne. Folowers of Tzeentch thirst for knowledge. Only rarely would they have been driven by a desire for more and more random mutations, or to become a pawn in Tzeentchs game. Followers of Slaanesh seek to become skilled and famous, or just to indulge in secret desires. The torture parties they will end up with after a while were perhaps not what they had initially anticipated. Followers of Nurgle are affraid of death, so Nurgle will prolong their lives. As bloated and rotting abominations.

People do not start following Khorne because they want to be frothing mad reavers who do nothing but kill. People do not follow Nurgle because they want their bodies ridden with disease and sickness. People becoming followers of Chaos bargain with dark and malign masters. They desire something, but they will inevitably just end up the Chaos Gods' play thing. The Chaos Gods are about the most extremes of the negative human emotions. They are not measured. No sane person would consciously want to live out those emotions to those extremes. Khorne is not the god of fair competition. He is the god of murder in the most violent possible way. Slaanesh is not the god of skill and sensations. He is the god of the most extreme forms of mind bending pain and extasy that can only be achieved through serious trauma caused to some or all of the individuals involved.

[TennisBall]

Pinhead and the other cenobites would make great slaaneshi followers.

[TennisBall]

I already admitted that the Chaos gods do not offer true freedom, however the thing is, that the Chaos gods align with what you want anyway.

Chaos ensures a shorter life for most and a greater chance of death. Many of their followers have to kill to please them, that means anyone living in a chaos controlled area has a good chance of being killed for sport, sacrifice, or dying from torture or maltreatment. The planets that succumbed to chaos the most during the Age of Darkness saw massive falls in their populations as life under chaos does not foster life. Chaos doesn't really care for the physical world except as a toy.

I mean, can you really see followers of the gods (who are actually in contact with their power) growing vegetables to eat and looking after animals enough to use them for food and transport?

 

What I've wondered is where do all the positive emotions go? Is there another part of the warp that is actually good as it seems a very one way thing with the current setup.

[Ordos20]

You raise a very good point. For that matter, a planet under chaos, how does a population actually sustain itself with the emphasis on torture, pleasure, decay, death and murder? And not only in the food department, but families as well? I mean no babies means the planet dies off in no-time (I would assume that in the eye of terror the gods create their own legions, cause from the visions of planets there one cannot fathom how anything would live there longer than a year)

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

You raise a very good point. For that matter, a planet under chaos, how does a population actually sustain itself with the emphasis on torture, pleasure, decay, death and murder? And not only in the food department, but families as well? I mean no babies means the planet dies off in no-time (I would assume that in the eye of terror the gods create their own legions, cause from the visions of planets there one cannot fathom how anything would live there longer than a year)

 

Dan Abnett's "Gaunt's Ghosts" series actually goes into this, and has the Ghosts see what Chaos society is like first hand.

 

its an eye opener to be honest.

 

WLK

[Azekai]

You raise a very good point. For that matter, a planet under chaos, how does a population actually sustain itself with the emphasis on torture, pleasure, decay, death and murder? And not only in the food department, but families as well? I mean no babies means the planet dies off in no-time (I would assume that in the eye of terror the gods create their own legions, cause from the visions of planets there one cannot fathom how anything would live there longer than a year)

 

Dan Abnett's "Gaunt's Ghosts" series actually goes into this, and has the Ghosts see what Chaos society is like first hand.

 

its an eye opener to be honest.

 

WLK

Indeed. I found the Gereon situation very interesting- life goes on, but it is brutal and hideous. Chaos followers get their slaves to grow their food, salvage material, and work in their factorums. Of course, chaos resource management tactics in real space are probably quite different from whatever insane methods exist in the Eye or the Maelstrom.

 

By the way, if you are tired of your current boring ambivalent Lovecraftian entity, converting to Grandfather Nurgle is always an option. He loves you!

[Ubermensch Commander]

You raise a very good point. For that matter, a planet under chaos, how does a population actually sustain itself with the emphasis on torture, pleasure, decay, death and murder? And not only in the food department, but families as well? I mean no babies means the planet dies off in no-time (I would assume that in the eye of terror the gods create their own legions, cause from the visions of planets there one cannot fathom how anything would live there longer than a year)

 

Dan Abnett's "Gaunt's Ghosts" series actually goes into this, and has the Ghosts see what Chaos society is like first hand.

 

its an eye opener to be honest.

 

WLK

Indeed. I found the Gereon situation very interesting- life goes on, but it is brutal and hideous. Chaos followers get their slaves to grow their food, salvage material, and work in their factorums. Of course, chaos resource management tactics in real space are probably quite different from whatever insane methods exist in the Eye or the Maelstrom.

 

By the way, if you are tired of your current boring ambivalent Lovecraftian entity, converting to Grandfather Nurgle is always an option. He loves you!

 

I...need an adult? XD

[Phoebus]

Here's the big difference between Chaos and the Imperium: intent.

 

It's not simply a matter of which faction does worse things to its subjects. The Emperor was at the head of an Imperium that was absolutely tyrannical, warmongering, and scoffed at the idea of even basic individual freedoms. But why? That's the key question. The Emperor didn't set up the Imperium because he got a kick out of lying to people while quashing their right to worship, or because he liked enslaving human beings, or because he liked the idea of conquering the whole galaxy. They were means to end. That end was to ensure Mankind could be safely shepherded through the psychic phase of their evolutionary process without being destroyed or becoming thralls to Chaos.

 

Chaos, on the other hand, does what it does for the sake of doing those things. War/killing/glory, pleasure/pain, change/mutation and disease/perserverance are not means to an end for the four Ruinous Powers; they are the ends.

 

Even more to the point, the Emperor never wanted the Imperium to become what it is today. Chaos made that happen by corrupting Horus, instigating the Heresy, and ensuring that the Imperium - absent the Emperor's leadership - became "the cruelest and bloodiest regime imaginable."

[Derrios]

From a literary and narrative standpoint is it also possible that the Emperor did this in each of his Primarchs as an intended purpose to create a great being but with a flaw that they have to overcome. I mean doesn't that speak to the condition of man in general? Everyone should be able to admit to some specific flaw in themselves and the internal/external battle to overcome said flaw.

 

I think perhaps the Emperor did this not necessarily with the foresight of the a Heresy in certainty, but created the flaws for the Primarchs to realize their mortality and struggle with a flaw. A superior being for sure but ones not to be diefied by the populace. Just like the Emperor didn't want to be.

 

I have not read everything there is on the background but I have some knoweledge of the HH and old/new fluff. I think Big E did this as a way to prove his faith in humanity with the possibility that it may backfire, hence all the contingency situations.

[yhta]

i could reply that the road to hell is paved with good intentions...

 

but rather i'll say that dealing with any powers of the warp is a mistake, and he was warned against it by the Emperor himself. if the gene-seed of the thousand sons were killing them, then maybe the galaxy would have been better off with them dead.

 

dead and loyal, or alive (in their current fashion) and traitors to the emperor and mankind.

 

for me, that is a easy decision.

 

WLK

 

i can imagine russ saying that if he find that horus changes the order and end working like the perfect tool for chaos.

 

russ is the other midset. when a super inteligent godlike being think that the only way is to do wharever the emperor told you because he is your leader. at the end he become the atack dog of the chaos gods. killing everything in prospero. and in the end makeing his brother turn on chaos and working by the same guy who change the order in first place

 

phoebus:yes. the chaos god are being born of emocions. not negative but extrime ends of that:slaanesh is the god of love without limits. he love every feeling and every act. even the horrible stuff. because is his/her nature. or Tzeetch how make plan even(or specially) against itself. look the battle of prospero:maybe he had a plan of turn the wolf to chaos he magnus agree to destroy then before the reach the planet,maybe he has another plan to make valdor kill Russ and many plans for that moment. in te end he wins and he lose. making sure everything changes without actually care every much who wins(after all. the thousand sons and the space wolf became his pawns in all this mess) why? because is his nature

 

And now look the emperor. one could argue that make a future for humanity is his nature. he control,kill,destroy,lie,hide things and even in the golden throne. more dead than alive. he still make everything he can to save humanity even when they become the thing that he try to avoid so much.

 

Why he is still trying to protect humanity? because is just his nature.

 

For me. the diferents about the chaos gods and the emperor are about natures. because in ways they are pretty much the same.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@yhta: if russ was an attack dog, then why did he give magnus the chance to step down peacefully? (in "Prospero Burns", we have Russ call out to Magnus through Hawser, as everybody believed Hawser was magnus's spy)

 

no primarch in the HH is a single role, to think that way is to limit what the authors intended with this series and cheapens it as a whole.

 

WLK

[KarkassBC]

Hi everybody, first post after some years of lurking mode (but enjoy reading every thread)

 

I started reading a very old White Dwarf with the story of the fall of Prospero, so I am quite biased on the evaluation of the VI Legion.

 

Someone showed a red flag in front of them and they charge directly...

 

@yhta: if russ was an attack dog, then why did he give magnus the chance to step down peacefully? (in "Prospero Burns", we have Russ call out to Magnus through Hawser, as everybody believed Hawser was magnus's spy)

 

WLK

 

Sorry but I liked many of your posts but this one is a very bad defence for Russ and the SW.

 

1 - In the story Hawser was not a pawn of Magnus.

2 - Even thinking Hawser as a spy, thanks to his eyes, but the person behind him could only hear and see and not speak through him. It's like you watching a TV... hardly you can speak through the actors.

3 - Remember to read also "A Thousands Sons". Russ gave the order to the fleet to cut every kind of communication. He kept Hawser near him, thinking that his brother could speak through him... he could keep even a picture of him... but if the link is not to Magnus he will not answer in any way.

4 - Even Hawser tried to explain to the Primarch to think about Magnus in a positive way. If he would break the Emperor Decree to give a warning, there is a very high possibility that the warning is true... Russ don't change his mind, thinking the plot as a very complex Alpha Legion scenario: Magnus create a very big lies to show the value of sorcery... result Russ and the Warmaster together going to raze Prospero for both reasons... Sorcery and Vengeance... Very great idea from the most intelligent Primarch (Magnus).

5 - Russ through Hawser gave an ultimatum to his brother... after he saw Prospero without defences, with no armed fleets and with civilian ships moving outside the orbital space... decision even to a humbly wolf soldier: Magnus has surrended... clearly a man with the mind as a Primarch can see far than this simple answer... another very complex Alpha Legion scheme... they plan to capture us when we land... start orbital barrage...

 

I want to stop here to not show every point... we can only waste time...

 

Russ is made with a very narrow mind... he received a simple request... carry to me my children because he spoke bad about your brother... you also know exactly what he told about your brother... a traitor... you spoke to your possible traitor brother believing him and not believing the other... you started orbital barrage

 

Why you haven't any doubt? why you haven't landed on the planet to speak to your brother and know the truth? Because you prefer to know only one version of the story, the one that you like.

 

Sorry Russ in this entire story is not only an attack dog, but an attacking dog that miss the real target (in a european TV series this police dog will miss the burglar and catch the victim).

 

Best regards

[Cactus]

From a literary and narrative standpoint is it also possible that the Emperor did this in each of his Primarchs as an intended purpose to create a great being but with a flaw that they have to overcome. I mean doesn't that speak to the condition of man in general? Everyone should be able to admit to some specific flaw in themselves and the internal/external battle to overcome said flaw.

 

I think perhaps the Emperor did this not necessarily with the foresight of the a Heresy in certainty, but created the flaws for the Primarchs to realize their mortality and struggle with a flaw. A superior being for sure but ones not to be diefied by the populace. Just like the Emperor didn't want to be.

Derrios, that's a brilliant interpretation. :)

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@KarkassBC: in the nicest way i can say this, your post shows a completely opposite view point of what i see to be the truth of the siutation.

 

At this point in the Heresy, NOBODY knows exactly what Russ's orders are in concern to Magnus. in the black library book series, we havent seen a single sentence saying "Russ, please detain yoru brother" or "Russ, kill the traitorous bastard". (earlier sources have Russ being ordered to bring Magnus in, and another has Russ ordered to destroy Magnus via Horus)

 

what we have seen is the Emperor's orders to Magnus, saying that if you disobey me a 2nd time I will destroy you, wipe you from the history, and so on.

 

So looking at this order, and having a contingent of the Emperor's own bodyguard along with the Sisters of Silence accompany Russ to Prospero, its either wishful thinking or outright ignorance to assume they came on anything other than a war footing

 

now with this said, Russ took aside what a couple of other Primarchs and a Captain of the Emperor's bodyguard thought to be a pawn of Magnus, and begged him to come peacefully. when no answer arrived, Russ proceeded as he was ordered to.

 

the tradgey being that Hawser was not a pawn of Magnus had fooled everybody. but Russ's act of brotherly compassion removes any hint of "attack dog" from his actions, in my eyes.

 

WLK

[Gree]

now with this said, Russ took aside what a couple of other Primarchs and a Captain of the Emperor's bodyguard thought to be a pawn of Magnus, and begged him to come peacefully. when no answer arrived, Russ proceeded as he was ordered to.

 

the tradgey being that Hawser was not a pawn of Magnus had fooled everybody. but Russ's act of brotherly compassion removes any hint of "attack dog" from his actions, in my eyes.

 

WLK

 

If Russ truely wanted to spare Magnus, then he would have simply opened up a communcations channel to the planet below instead of trusting a warp message for some reason. He had plenty of time to do it.

[Arachnid99]

now with this said, Russ took aside what a couple of other Primarchs and a Captain of the Emperor's bodyguard thought to be a pawn of Magnus, and begged him to come peacefully. when no answer arrived, Russ proceeded as he was ordered to.

 

the tradgey being that Hawser was not a pawn of Magnus had fooled everybody. but Russ's act of brotherly compassion removes any hint of "attack dog" from his actions, in my eyes.

 

WLK

 

If Russ truely wanted to spare Magnus, then he would have simply opened up a communcations channel to the planet below instead of trusting a warp message for some reason. He had plenty of time to do it.

 

Except the advantage of talking to Hawser on his own was that only Russ, Hawser and Hawser's controller would know about the appeal. Using normal communications would enable the Custodes and the Sisters of Silence to listen in and the last thing Russ wants on the way to take out a brother his for his loyalty to come into question. In my mind the fact he didn't open a communication channel to Magnus is an argument that the kill order came from Terra not Horus. After all if the Custodes think they are going on a capture mission they'll have no objection to Russ publicly asking Magnus to come nicely, but if the kill order is from Terra they would object.

[Gree]

now with this said, Russ took aside what a couple of other Primarchs and a Captain of the Emperor's bodyguard thought to be a pawn of Magnus, and begged him to come peacefully. when no answer arrived, Russ proceeded as he was ordered to.

 

the tradgey being that Hawser was not a pawn of Magnus had fooled everybody. but Russ's act of brotherly compassion removes any hint of "attack dog" from his actions, in my eyes.

 

WLK

 

If Russ truely wanted to spare Magnus, then he would have simply opened up a communcations channel to the planet below instead of trusting a warp message for some reason. He had plenty of time to do it.

 

Except the advantage of talking to Hawser on his own was that only Russ, Hawser and Hawser's controller would know about the appeal. Using normal communications would enable the Custodes and the Sisters of Silence to listen in and the last thing Russ wants on the way to take out a brother his for his loyalty to come into question. In my mind the fact he didn't open a communication channel to Magnus is an argument that the kill order came from Terra not Horus. After all if the Custodes think they are going on a capture mission they'll have no objection to Russ publicly asking Magnus to come nicely, but if the kill order is from Terra they would object.

 

If Magnus sucessfully surrendered to Russ via Hawser then the Custodes would notice anyway. So no.

 

After all, If Magnus sucessfully contact Russ via Hawser and surrendered, then the Custodes would obviously notice Russ capturing Magnus then, instead of killing him. So either way the Custodes would have noticed.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

now with this said, Russ took aside what a couple of other Primarchs and a Captain of the Emperor's bodyguard thought to be a pawn of Magnus, and begged him to come peacefully. when no answer arrived, Russ proceeded as he was ordered to.

 

the tradgey being that Hawser was not a pawn of Magnus had fooled everybody. but Russ's act of brotherly compassion removes any hint of "attack dog" from his actions, in my eyes.

 

WLK

 

If Russ truely wanted to spare Magnus, then he would have simply opened up a communcations channel to the planet below instead of trusting a warp message for some reason. He had plenty of time to do it.

 

Except the advantage of talking to Hawser on his own was that only Russ, Hawser and Hawser's controller would know about the appeal. Using normal communications would enable the Custodes and the Sisters of Silence to listen in and the last thing Russ wants on the way to take out a brother his for his loyalty to come into question. In my mind the fact he didn't open a communication channel to Magnus is an argument that the kill order came from Terra not Horus. After all if the Custodes think they are going on a capture mission they'll have no objection to Russ publicly asking Magnus to come nicely, but if the kill order is from Terra they would object.

 

 

If Magnus sucessfully surrendered to Russ via Hawser then the Custodes would notice anyway. So no.

 

After all, If Magnus sucessfully contact Russ via Hawser and surrendered, then the Custodes would obviously notice Russ capturing Magnus then, instead of killing him. So either way the Custodes would have noticed.

 

if Magnus surrendered to Russ, and was taken captive to Terra, do you think any command aside from the Emperor himself would allow Magnus to come to harm?

 

Russ values all of his brothers...he comes to the support of Lorgar in "The First Heretic", and i think this act shows how deep his bonds of brotherhood run.

 

If Magnus had surrended to Russ, I have no doubt that Russ would have brought him to Terra regardless of what the Custodians have to say.

 

WLK

[Gree]

now with this said, Russ took aside what a couple of other Primarchs and a Captain of the Emperor's bodyguard thought to be a pawn of Magnus, and begged him to come peacefully. when no answer arrived, Russ proceeded as he was ordered to.

 

the tradgey being that Hawser was not a pawn of Magnus had fooled everybody. but Russ's act of brotherly compassion removes any hint of "attack dog" from his actions, in my eyes.

 

WLK

 

If Russ truely wanted to spare Magnus, then he would have simply opened up a communcations channel to the planet below instead of trusting a warp message for some reason. He had plenty of time to do it.

 

Except the advantage of talking to Hawser on his own was that only Russ, Hawser and Hawser's controller would know about the appeal. Using normal communications would enable the Custodes and the Sisters of Silence to listen in and the last thing Russ wants on the way to take out a brother his for his loyalty to come into question. In my mind the fact he didn't open a communication channel to Magnus is an argument that the kill order came from Terra not Horus. After all if the Custodes think they are going on a capture mission they'll have no objection to Russ publicly asking Magnus to come nicely, but if the kill order is from Terra they would object.

 

 

If Magnus sucessfully surrendered to Russ via Hawser then the Custodes would notice anyway. So no.

 

After all, If Magnus sucessfully contact Russ via Hawser and surrendered, then the Custodes would obviously notice Russ capturing Magnus then, instead of killing him. So either way the Custodes would have noticed.

 

if Magnus surrendered to Russ, and was taken captive to Terra, do you think any command aside from the Emperor himself would allow Magnus to come to harm?

 

Russ values all of his brothers...he comes to the support of Lorgar in "The First Heretic", and i think this act shows how deep his bonds of brotherhood run.

 

If Magnus had surrended to Russ, I have no doubt that Russ would have brought him to Terra regardless of what the Custodians have to say.

 

WLK

 

Then is Russ truely wanted to save Magnus, then he would have simply opened up a communcations channel to the planet below, instead of trusting in warpcraft. But no, he did not.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@Gree: thats rather a black or white view of a extremely complicated situation, dont you think?

 

WLK

[TennisBall]

I found the Gereon situation very interesting- life goes on, but it is brutal and hideous. Chaos followers get their slaves to grow their food, salvage material, and work in their factorums. Of course, chaos resource management tactics in real space are probably quite different from whatever insane methods exist in the Eye or the Maelstrom.

Gereon is an excellent example, only a fraction of the population survive and much of the planet's infrastructure is destroyed. Was it there that warp creatures were used to syphon off natural resources too?

There is also a great short story set on a chaos held world where the population are dying off due to being forced to grow some chaos tainted plant.

The only way chaos planets could survive is if the chaos powers kept their presence to a minimum so crops would grow, people would be born. Only a select few could be given any kind of gifts.

[Gree]

@Gree: thats rather a black or white view of a extremely complicated situation, dont you think?

 

WLK

 

Not at all. Either way Russ was willing to ignore the Custodes when they would find out. All Russ had to do is the extremely simple taks of opening up a communications link to the planet below. But he did not.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@Gree: thats rather a black or white view of a extremely complicated situation, dont you think?

 

WLK

 

Not at all. Either way Russ was willing to ignore the Custodes when they would find out. All Russ had to do is the extremely simple taks of opening up a communications link to the planet below. But he did not.

 

Russ communicated with what was thought to be a completely reliable method of communication with Magnus.

But your judging Russ's actions because he didnt try and call, write, e-mail, smoke signal, comm call, pigeon messenger, and cup+wire call Magnus?

 

WLK

[Gree]

@Gree: thats rather a black or white view of a extremely complicated situation, dont you think?

 

WLK

 

Not at all. Either way Russ was willing to ignore the Custodes when they would find out. All Russ had to do is the extremely simple taks of opening up a communications link to the planet below. But he did not.

 

Russ communicated with what was thought to be a completely reliable method of communication with Magnus.

But your judging Russ's actions because he didnt try and call, write, e-mail, smoke signal, comm call, pigeon messenger, and cup+wire call Magnus?

 

WLK

 

Why on Earth did Russ think warpcraft was the answer? Especially when the Wolves were shown to be wary of everything the Thousand Sons did? Why would he even think sending messages like that is in any way reliable? Even sanctioned Astropathic messages can be often garbled or lost. Why would he think that would be reliable at all?

 

Why use warpcraft when he could just as easily opened up a comn signal down to Prospero? That method is 100% warp-free and reliable.

 

It's like Russ tried to use charades to communicate with a man when he could have simply walked up and talked to him.