Were the Legions Botched?

[Wade Garrett]

 

Gereon is a bit of an extreme example...it seems to me that Chaos never intended to hold that planet, only strip it of everything they could before the Imperium took it back (hence the wiping out the populace in slave camps and draining the oceans dry with magical portal thingies.) The world of Nurth in Dan Abnett's book Legion is also devoted to the Chaotic powers, but we also see merchants and such going about their business and the populace as a whole doesn't seem any more underwear on head crazy than those of other planets the Great Crusade has landed on.

 

The Covenant of Colchis also worshipped the Chaos Gods before Lorgar and Kor Phereon wiped them out to make way for the Emperor, and as far as well can tell from TFH they didn't turn their planet into Mordor doing it, and the Black Crusade RPG also provides examples of worlds in thrall to the Ruinous Powers that don't consist entirely of deranged lunatics sacrificing one another 24/7 while daemons look on and applaud.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@Gree: thats rather a black or white view of a extremely complicated situation, dont you think?

 

WLK

 

Not at all. Either way Russ was willing to ignore the Custodes when they would find out. All Russ had to do is the extremely simple taks of opening up a communications link to the planet below. But he did not.

 

Russ communicated with what was thought to be a completely reliable method of communication with Magnus.

But your judging Russ's actions because he didnt try and call, write, e-mail, smoke signal, comm call, pigeon messenger, and cup+wire call Magnus?

 

WLK

 

Why on Earth did Russ think warpcraft was the answer? Especially when the Wolves were shown to be wary of everything the Thousand Sons did? Why would he even think sending messages like that is in any way reliable? Even sanctioned Astropathic messages can be often garbled or lost.

 

Why use warpcraft when he could just as easily opened up a comn signal down to Prospero? That method is 100% warp-free and reliable.

 

It's like Russ tried to use charades to communicate with a man when he could have simply walked up and talked to him.

 

So for you, Russ is at fault for not trying every available option?

 

its easy to make decisions behind a computer, but being in what may be one of Russ's worst nightmares, he may have been conflicted and making decisions on the fly.

 

you must really suck around the water cooler after sporting events...

 

WLK

[Gree]

So for you, Russ is at fault for not trying every available option?

 

its easy to make decisions behind a computer, but being in what may be one of Russ's worst nightmares, he may have been conflicted and making decisions on the fly.

 

you must really suck around the water cooler after sporting events...

 

WLK

 

It's not a hard or difficult descision. Simply opening a comn channel is quite an easy thing to do. Russ even had a full hour to do it. Using warpcraft not only makes absolutely no sense but also flies in fact of Russ's own characterization regarding the use of the warp.

 

Why exactly about opening a comn channel to the planet below is so difficult for Russ? Especially when he had at least a full hour to do it. He was hardly doing it on the fly. This is not Russ making a conflicted descision. This is Russ going out of the way to do the unreliable and difficult thing when the easy thing is right in front of him.

[Wade Garrett]

It's not a hard or difficult descision. Simply opening a comn channel is quite an easy thing to do. Russ even had a full hour to do it. Using warpcraft not only makes absolutely no sense but also flies in fact of Russ's own characterization regarding the use of the warp.

 

Hadn't the Rune Priests already examined Hawser and told Russ "Yep, he's pretty much a direct channel to Magnus." And we know the Wolf King trusts his Rune Priests.

[Gree]

It's not a hard or difficult descision. Simply opening a comn channel is quite an easy thing to do. Russ even had a full hour to do it. Using warpcraft not only makes absolutely no sense but also flies in fact of Russ's own characterization regarding the use of the warp.

 

Hadn't the Rune Priests already examined Hawser and told Russ "Yep, he's pretty much a direct channel to Magnus." And we know the Wolf King trusts his Rune Priests.

 

And warpcraft is rarely reliable. The Wolves make a point on how warpcraft must be watched and used carefully and that the Thousand Sons warpcraft is dangerous. Therefore using a link to the Thousand Sons warpcraft makes rather little sense.

 

If Magnus does not respond with Hawser then repeat the message through comn channels. If he still refuses to respond then begin the invasion, but basing a highly delicate situation solely on warpcraft is what got the Thousand Sons in trouble in the first place.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Okay, we're going to do circles here for a bit longer, and we've both restated our stances, so why dont we move on?

 

WLK

[Gree]

Okay, we're going to do circles here for a bit longer, and we've both restated our stances, so why dont we move on?

 

WLK

 

I'm not quite sure what point you had actually. What exactly is so hard or difficult about simply opening up a comn channel to Prospero? It makes all the sense in the world to do that. Indeed, I'm not sure why one would't do such a thing if one were Russ in this case.

[Wade Garrett]

I'm not quite sure what point you had actually. What exactly is so hard or difficult about simply opening up a comn channel to Prospero? It makes all the sense in the world to do that. Indeed, I'm not sure why one would't do such a thing if one were Russ in this case.

 

If he had official orders to Kill Magnus, and the Custodes find out he's trying to negotiate (And didn't A Thousand Sons say Constantine Valdor was one of those pushing hard for the Sons to be wiped out to the last Astartes?) then the Wolves are next on the chopping block. If Magnus is able to contact him directly through a channel no one but Russ and his pack have control over though, they might be able to work something out.

[Gree]

I'm not quite sure what point you had actually. What exactly is so hard or difficult about simply opening up a comn channel to Prospero? It makes all the sense in the world to do that. Indeed, I'm not sure why one would't do such a thing if one were Russ in this case.

 

If he had official orders to Kill Magnus, and the Custodes find out he's trying to negotiate (And didn't A Thousand Sons say Constantine Valdor was one of those pushing hard for the Sons to be wiped out to the last Astartes?) then the Wolves are next on the chopping block. If Magnus is able to contact him directly through a channel no one but Russ and his pack have control over though, they might be able to work something out.

 

We have already established earlier in the thread that the Custodes would find out anyway if Magnus surrendered to Russ using a private channel or not. So no. And I see no reason why Russ can't simply open up a private communciations channel anyway.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Okay, we're going to do circles here for a bit longer, and we've both restated our stances, so why dont we move on?

 

WLK

 

I'm not quite sure what point you had actually. What exactly is so hard or difficult about simply opening up a comn channel to Prospero? It makes all the sense in the world to do that. Indeed, I'm not sure why one would't do such a thing if one were Russ in this case.

 

My point was that Russ made an effort to communicate with Magnus, rather than just arriving and start blowing crap up. By doing this he showed he was more than the attack dog that he was called earlier in the thread.

 

Your point was that Russ didnt try every method of communication, so he must of course not wanted to save his brother, and was a foaming at the mouth attack dog.

 

Your point flies in the face of what actually occured in Prospero Burns, and what Magnus tells Lorgar in the First Heretic. But since you seem to be so narrow minded that only your views are points, and everybody else is clearly incorrect despite the events actually happening in the books, that i decided to continue this "discussion" with you is a waste of time.

 

and just so things are clear, and no guess work is needed on your part (as you lack the ability to read whats clearly in front of you, i dont want you to risk guessing anything), your views expressed so far are among the narrow minded things I have ever read on bolter and chainsword. The only thing i can take from this is that you are either willfully trolling people or that you see the world in such a black and white nature that i greatly fear what is going to happen to you should your head ever leave the sand you buried it in.

 

Wolf Lord Kieran

[Gree]

Your point flies in the face of what actually occured in Prospero Burns, and what Magnus tells Lorgar in the First Heretic. But since you seem to be so narrow minded that only your views are points, and everybody else is clearly incorrect despite the events actually happening in the books, that i decided to continue this "discussion" with you is a waste of time.

 

How exactly does my point fly in the face of what actually occured in Prospero Burns? What happened in Russ making a nonsensical half-arsed descision to contact Magnus, before letting the Wolves loose. It contradicts nothing Magnus told Lorgar, as even Magnus admits that he and Russ do not get along at all.

 

and just so things are clear, and no guess work is needed on your part (as you lack the ability to read whats clearly in front of you, i dont want you to risk guessing anything), your views expressed so far are among the narrow minded things I have ever read on bolter and chainsword. The only thing i can take from this is that you are either willfully trolling people or that you see the world in such a black and white nature that i greatly fear what is going to happen to you should your head ever leave the sand you buried it in.

 

Ah, and here come the personal insults. I'm honestly not quite sure what any part of what I expressed is ''narrow-minded.''. Warpcraft is untrustworthy and planetary communications are well established. What exactly is so hard here? Or are you just upset because I pointed out Russ made a pretty nonsensical descision and you are getting angry about it because I'm pointing out the uncomfortable elements? Or is this some knee-jerk reaction because you think I'm insulting Russ?

[yhta]

there is also the fact that not fleet of the TS were there and the fact that the TS did not atack the SW in any moment. also i had one question:why everyone thinks the spy works from magnus? why he wants and spy to watch his brother? super-inteligent almost godlike being that Russ is. can at least think someting is not right

 

i said that Russ is an atack dog because he was use by chaos to atack a brother who was loyal by the order of horus. the architraitor. only making everything better for the traitors

[Wade Garrett]

We have already established earlier in the thread that the Custodes would find out anyway if Magnus surrendered to Russ using a private channel or not. So no. And I see no reason why Russ can't simply open up a private communciations channel anyway.

 

Did we? Because it seems to me there's a world of difference between Russ and Magnus putting their heads togather over a private channel, and cooking up a scheme whereby the Custodes only learn that Magnus will be brought to Terra in chains for his trial after they are under the guns of two entire Legions, and said Custodes finding it out ahead of time and having the oppurtunity to run amok through the Wolf Ships as the XIV legion's watchdogs did in The First Heretic.

 

Not to mention that Magnus had already sealed himself within his chambers and used his psyker craft to block all incoming and outgoing communications from Prospero (source, A Thousand Sons) so Russ couldn't just pick up the phone and give him a call.

[Gree]

Did we? Because it seems to me there's a world of difference between Russ and Magnus putting their heads togather over a private channel, and cooking up a scheme whereby the Custodes only learn that Magnus will be brought to Terra in chains for his trial after they are under the guns of two entire Legions, and said Custodes finding it out ahead of time and having the oppurtunity to run amok through the Wolf Ships as the XIV legion's watchdogs did in The First Heretic.

 

I'm not exactly sure what difference there is. If Valdor had to press Russ into doing it, then it's clear Valdor was not in any kind of commanding position over Russ. IF Russ had enough time to operate an hour-long council of war on what to do, then it seems he had enough leeway to do whatever he so pleased. I'm not entirely sure why such a thing would prohibit Russ was simply opening up a private channel and discussing it with Magnus or one of his subordinates.

 

And the guns of a single Legion should be quite enough. After all, the Thousand Sons had sent their fleet away and shut off their defense network.

 

Not to mention that Magnus had already sealed himself within his chambers and used his psyker craft to block all incoming and outgoing communications from Prospero (source, A Thousand Sons) so Russ couldn't just pick up the phone and give him a call.

 

Then contact the planet and demand it's surrender or the Wolves will come. If they do not answer or refuse, then by all means, send the Wolves in. At least try conventional communications.

[Wade Garrett]

My understanding from Reading ATS and PB was that Magnus, being the uber-psyker that he was, had managed to server ALL, and I do mean ALL channels of communication offworld, as in nobody on Prospero could contact anyone off planet.

Which only made matters worse, because I imagine the Wolves did try to make contact from orbit, and took the lack of response as proof that the Sons were plotting something, probably to do with maleficarum, and the only possible solution was to start landing troops and bombarding from orbit. And then the Thousand saw the Wolves starting to level their planet and wholesale slaughter the Spireguard, and started hitting back with sorcery and bolter, and goodbye, peaceful resolution.

 

The point I'm trying to make is not that Russ's hands (paws?) were entirely squeaky clean, but that Magnus also had a fairly hefty role in the absolute train wreck Prospero turned into.

[Gree]

My understanding from Reading ATS and PB was that Magnus, being the uber-psyker that he was, had managed to server ALL, and I do mean ALL channels of communication offworld, as in nobody on Prospero could contact anyone off planet.

Which only made matters worse, because I imagine the Wolves did try to make contact from orbit, and took the lack of response as proof that the Sons were plotting something, probably to do with maleficarum, and the only possible solution was to start landing troops and bombarding from orbit. And then the Thousand saw the Wolves starting to level their planet and wholesale slaughter the Spireguard, and started hitting back with sorcery and bolter, and goodbye, peaceful resolution.

 

The point I'm trying to make is not that Russ's hands (paws?) were entirely squeaky clean, but that Magnus also had a fairly hefty role in the absolute train wreck Prospero turned into.

 

I can find no such statement that all communications were severed on Prospero. If you can find such a quote then that could be good. Until then, the plot hole remains.

[Wade Garrett]

10-Roger.

 

TO THE BOOKSHELF, HOOOOOO!

[KarkassBC]

10-Roger.

 

TO THE BOOKSHELF, HOOOOOO!

 

Sorry, friends, I don't want to create a flame war on that, but there are only two ways to consider the fluff and the BL books

 

1 - Believe the story as true

2 - don't believe

 

OK for the strange mode of communications thought by Russ - through Hawser - totally unrealiable (with also Sisters of Silence aboard).

 

The SW are made for war... ok for that... but Russ gave through Hawser some combat conditions:

Evacuate the civilians from your cities. Deactivate your defence systems. Bring yourself and your Thousand Sons out into the open, and prepare to surrender to me upon my arrival.

 

drop your defences and wait for us

 

And what happened... exactly that... (give some evaluation on the civilian evacuation... to do it in only 1 hour is very hard to complete... but you can show that you have taken steps to meet the ultimatum requests)

 

Many descriptions are written in the book showing from a soldier side that the enemy (the TS) has decided to put an undeclared truce between the sides. They have not lit their defences, they moved the fleet, they allowed the neutral party to clear the battlefield (think of them as possible hostages or human fireshield) (page 343)

 

Simply send an advance party with some soldiers to see what really happen on the surface and speak to the Imperial Governor or every kind of military/civilian representative (you can keep the rest of the fleet outside the guns coverage).

 

What, as a soldier, is completely unbelievable is the behaviour of a mighty warrior like Russ... Weapons kill... If you have doubt you don't shoot and after ask, but you do that in the reverse order...

Remember his decision involves an attack on another brother Legion, not a band of some renegades... even with success there will be an extremely high numbers of casualties on both sides... you don't call an attack if you have a doubt, because the consequences are above every possible level.

 

The behaviour of Russ is compatible only with an extermination order from the start, without any other outcome.

 

So for me, as every other space marine in each Legion, Russ as a Primarch is botched

[Wade Garrett]

I can find no such statement that all communications were severed on Prospero. If you can find such a quote then that could be good. Until then, the plot hole remains.

 

Foooouuuund it!

 

 

And the Legion knows nothing of this?” asked Amon.

“Nothing,” said Magnus. “I have drawn a veil around Prospero. None see out, not even the Corvidae. Now the Thousand Sons must learn what it means to be blind.”

“So our punishment draws ever closer,” said Amon. “What happens when it gets here?”

“You are kind, old friend,” said Magnus. “It is my punishment.”

 

[Gree]

I can find no such statement that all communications were severed on Prospero. If you can find such a quote then that could be good. Until then, the plot hole remains.

 

Foooouuuund it!

 

 

And the Legion knows nothing of this?” asked Amon.

“Nothing,” said Magnus. “I have drawn a veil around Prospero. None see out, not even the Corvidae. Now the Thousand Sons must learn what it means to be blind.”

“So our punishment draws ever closer,” said Amon. “What happens when it gets here?”

“You are kind, old friend,” said Magnus. “It is my punishment.”

 

 

That simply means none can see out with psychic powers. That says nothing about conventional communications or seeing in.

[Phoebus]

So Magnus would go through all that effort to prevent the Thousand Sons from realizing there was an invasion coming... but would allow for a massive loophole like someone just getting on the Vox and calling up Prospero?

[Gree]

So Magnus would go through all that effort to prevent the Thousand Sons from realizing there was an invasion coming... but would allow for a massive loophole like someone just getting on the Vox and calling up Prospero?

 

He thought Russ would attack them regardless. Or at least that is the impression I got.

[Cactus]

My reading of "None see out, not even the Corvidae" was always that he had not only blocked conventional means of seeing, but also any psychic ability to do so. In other words, clever ol' Magnus has once again seen the loopholes and already closed them.

[Gree]

My reading of "None see out, not even the Corvidae" was always that he had not only blocked conventional means of seeing, but also any psychic ability to do so. In other words, clever ol' Magnus has once again seen the loopholes and already closed them.

 

And where at all is there any reference to shutting outside communications?

[KarkassBC]

Sorry to add again my voice.

 

This thread is to show that every Primarch and related Legions are botched from the start.

 

 

My opinion, for Russ and Magnus are the following one:

 

Magnus... extremely intelligent, IQ champion but he lacks self confidence and go quickly on despair or tragic ending.

 

I give two proofs (or ideas):

When he begged in the Warp (to Chronozon) to save his children... the flesh change curse was present before Magnus, so nobody can blame on him if he cannot find a cure... but thinking there was no hope, he stopped his research and ask for any possible help.

(With Deliverance Lost, the real solution was to go back to the Emperor and ask to look at the original project)

 

Second, with the idea of his brother Horus as a traitor, he could have sent an astrophatic message in a perfectly legal way. He could even sent the message by himself because Magnus is a psyker. But he decided for a very different way... he shot a cannon ball against Terra instead of simply relate a message.

 

Third... during the SW attack on Prospero, he decided to wait the SW fleet on the planet to meet his doom, and the planet with him. Why he don't choose to take a ship and move forward to find in the open space his brother Russ. If the order of Russ was to kill Magnus, and Magnus wanted to be killed, the best choice was to meet in an open field. Maybe even Russ, would decide to spare the Thousand Sons Astartes or the civilian population.

But Magnus didn't make this choice because his mind was clouded by despair.

 

I think Magnus blocked every possible line of communication around Prospero, but Russ didn't give an order to the fleet to communicate with the planet.

 

Russ is botched in the way that he think he know the truth and everyone is a liar or a fool.

 

Read page 333 and 334 of Prospero Burn and you will read some person trying to give a different opinion and Russ replayed that only him has a clear view of the story and everybody else are misleaded creatures.

 

The only possible explanation for the answers made by Russ, is the Space Wolves Primarch is an Alpha Legion super-evil-mad genius operative, with the hidden objective to reach the Library of Tizca, during the chaos and recover the secret diary of joung Omegon (where he wrote... I hate my brother), before Alpharius can read it and destroy the Galaxy.

 

Russ is a Primarch... but his behaviour in that event was like a spoiled child... I'm right not you... I'm right not you... bleahh