Reason to use hammer on NDK?

[himkano]

This might be better in the rules area, but since it applies specifically to one model on out army (maybe two). I was wondering why I was going to pay 10 points to lose an attack, so I was looking at the faq, and rules, to make sure I wasn't missing anything before re-modelling all 3 of my NDK - and I found this:

 

Nemesis Force Weapons, Force Weapons.

Change the first sentence to read “Unless otherwise stated, all

Nemesis weapons are Unusual Force Weapons, as detailed in

the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.”

 

Page 54 – Wargear, Nemesis Daemon Hammer.

Replace the first sentence of the second paragraph with the

following profile:

Range S AP Type

Daemon - x2 2 Melee, Concussive,

Hammer Daemonbane, Force,

Specialist Weapon,

Unwieldy.

 

I am not trying to start anything, and I don't think this was intentional, but I don't want to be surprised at a tournament either. It looks like this is saying that the nemesis doomfist might be an "unusual force weapon", meaning AP 3. I know that Dreadnought CC weapons are AP 2, but a Nemesis Force staff goes from AP 4 to AP 3, so it would seem that you can take the Hammer and have 3 S10, AP 2 attacks or not take the hammer and take 4 S10, AP 3 attacks, or Smash and and take 2 S10 AP 2 attacks.

 

I don't think that's intended, but it might be worth considering before you rip the hammers off of your NDK (also not that in 6th, unlike 5th, Monstrous Creatures do not ignore armorsaves)

[RedemptionNL]

You seem to have a couple of rules mistakes there:

- The Nemesis Force Staff has never been AP4.

- The Smash rule makes all Monstrous Creature attacks AP2 (unless already better), regardless if you do a Smash Attack or not. Most Monstrous Creatures don't have special close combat weapons, so this is pretty important.

- Doomfists are always AP2. Note that the 'Unusual Force Weapon' only states they are AP3 if it isn't stated otherwise. As the Doomfist entry states they follow the rules for DNCCW, they are Sx2 AP2.

 

But yes, the hammer isn't very useful in this edition. Basically, you pay the points to lose an attack and gain the Concussive rule.

[RedemptionNL]

Oh, and if you Smash with 2 Doomfists, you get 3 Attacks, not 2. As multiplication goes before addition, it's 3 / 2 = 1.5, rounded up to 2. Then you add any bonusses like 2 CC weapons, charge bonus, ect. So if you charge a Landraider or Monolith and you don't have a Greatsword handy, you might want to consider using one attack less to gain re-rolls for your armour penetration rolls.

[Zeratul29]

Yea, don't bother with the hammer, you're better off using the points somewhere else

[himkano]

You seem to have a couple of rules mistakes there:

- The Nemesis Force Staff has never been AP4.

- The Smash rule makes all Monstrous Creature attacks AP2 (unless already better), regardless if you do a Smash Attack or not. Most Monstrous Creatures don't have special close combat weapons, so this is pretty important.

- Doomfists are always AP2. Note that the 'Unusual Force Weapon' only states they are AP3 if it isn't stated otherwise. As the Doomfist entry states they follow the rules for DNCCW, they are Sx2 AP2.

 

But yes, the hammer isn't very useful in this edition. Basically, you pay the points to lose an attack and gain the Concussive rule.

 

sigh, now I have to break some models

 

I know the Nemesis Force Staff was never AP 4, but a normal force staff it - i didn't explain that well.

You are right on the other 2, I totally missed that smash gives them ap 2, whether they smash or not

 

Thanks for pointing that out

[MFive]

imo great sword is the best, for 25 pts you get to re-roll all to hits to wounds and armor-pen rolls on your fists so it is S10 and you still get your extra attack for having 2 weps so on the charge you have 5 attacks witch would kill any tank you charge(land raider included) and with it being AP2 you get +1 for the dmg chart

[himkano]

imo great sword is the best, for 25 pts you get to re-roll all to hits to wounds and armor-pen rolls on your fists so it is S10 and you still get your extra attack for having 2 weps so on the charge you have 5 attacks witch would kill any tank you charge(land raider included) and with it being AP2 you get +1 for the dmg chart

 

I could be wrong (as I proved earlier in this thread), but I don't think you would get the extra attack for the sword (walkers get that ability, not monsters). I know you are probably basing 4 attacks + a charge on the faq about a sword giving 4 attacks, but I can only assume that is including the charge - I don't see why the hammer would cost the NDK an attack, but not the sword (I will give you that 4 re-roll attacks will still probably kill a land raider)

[RedemptionNL]

Because the Hammer has the Specialist Weapon rule, but neither the Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon (and by extention, the Nemesis Doomfist) nor the Nemesis Greatsword have it. So yes, a Dreadknight with either 2 Doomfists or a Doomfist and a Greatsword get the bonus attack for having two close combat weapons, so 5 attacks on the charge.

[shortysl]

Only the Nemesis Daemon Hammer grants double strength. Though Doomfists are DCCW's, a Dreadknight is a Monstrous Creature and NOT a Walker, so doesn't gain the strength bonus. The relevance of them being DCCW's is when fitted to Dreadnoughts. You will gain +1A for a pair of fists on your Dreadknight but then you have to sacrifice half of those for S10 against vehicles. This gives you 3 S10 attacks on the charge against vehicles with Doomfists, or 4 S10 attacks against vehicles with the Nemesis Hammer. Pay those 10 points.

 

EDIT: Never mind, just read the yet-again-revised FAQ. S10 as a baseline? Pure insanity! Still, saves me 10 points on a hammer I suppose.

[MFive]

I could be wrong (as I proved earlier in this thread), but I don't think you would get the extra attack for the sword (walkers get that ability, not monsters). I know you are probably basing 4 attacks + a charge on the faq about a sword giving 4 attacks, but I can only assume that is including the charge - I don't see why the hammer would cost the NDK an attack, but not the sword (I will give you that 4 re-roll attacks will still probably kill a land raider)

 

Q: Does a Nemesis Dreadknight armed with a Nemesis greatsword have

4 Attacks at Strength 10 that, because of the Nemesis greatsword, can

re-roll To Hit, To Wound and Armour Penetration rolls?(p54)

A: Yes.

 

so no this does not include the +1 attack for charging, so it is 5 on charge(3 base +1 for 2 DCCW's and +1 for charging). the only reason that the NDH doesn't count as a 2nd ccw is because it is a specialized weapon and the DCCW's don't.

 

 

 

Only the Nemesis Daemon Hammer grants double strength. Though Doomfists are DCCW's, a Dreadknight is a Monstrous Creature and NOT a Walker, so doesn't gain the strength bonus. The relevance of them being DCCW's is when fitted to Dreadnoughts.

EDIT: Never mind, just read the yet-again-revised FAQ. S10 as a baseline? Pure insanity! Still, saves me 10 points on a hammer I suppose.

 

all models get the x2 strength and sp2 from the DCCW's not just Walkers, so yes it is insanity, i run 2-3 NDK's and my opponent hate them >:P