Iron Sage Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Fixed. Oh well, you wanted to know why they are mandatory? Word Bearers do not worship Chaos Gods individually. Instead, they are venerated and regarded as a Dark Pantheon of Chaos Gods. The sons of Lorgar view those who limit their worship to a single Chaos God with contempt and are partially at odds with the Emperor's Children for their decadence. Word Bearers rely on Daemons as shock troops, meatshields, and as the bulk of their armies. Their elite Chaos Space Marines are used to accomplish vital tasks. The Word Bearers have been known to have a massive cultist base, and have used cultists and insurgents since the Great Crusade. However, unlike the Alpha Legion, the primary use of cultists is as cannon fodder and distractions. Cheers, Yes,killax, but often on worlds the Word Bearers attacks, the warp will be stable, and in those cases bringing forth daemons is not necesarilly easy. I agree that daemons are fluffy allies for Bearers, but the Bearers certainly fight battles without them as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Because common sense also dictates that you will almost never have optimal resources to even have what your specialty is? Not to mention even if you do have all the cannons in the world and you aren't in a situation to use them, then you can't use the cannons. Go look at anything made by 1000Heathens. They're all excellent snap-shots of what the miniature, and by extension the army, is doing at the time, and every one of them tells a story. Sometimes the story doesn't include whatever makes the army special. Sometimes it has to show them being hobbled by that very lack, or adapting and overcoming, or whatever. So long as it's a good story, it doesn't matter. One final thing. The problem everyone is having is with your phrasing. You keep on saying "You cannot have a Word Bearer army without daemons, IMHO." What you should be saying is this - "I cannot have a Word Bearer army without daemons, IMHO." The first is dictating what others must do. The second is saying what you have limited yourself to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Sage Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 The point is that if say, 300 Word Bearers with the support of, say, 2-3 million men at arms (a common 40k invasion force), invades a world far outside an unstable warp bubble, they would likely not be able to summon forth their daemonic allies in the initial battles. Only when the bloodshed and horror reaches the appropriate scales, are daemons easy to bring forth into the material universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 The point is that if say, 300 Word Bearers with the support of, say, 2-3 million men at arms (a common 40k invasion force), invades a world far outside an unstable warp bubble, they would likely not be able to summon forth their daemonic allies in the initial battles. Only when the bloodshed and horror reaches the appropriate scales, are daemons easy to bring forth into the material universe. Did you read "Know no Fear"? If not I reccomend it, if nothing else just for the fun cultist stuff in there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_son_of_Dorn Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Word Lords! wait i mean Night Bearers! ahhh man tough call xD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 One final thing. The problem everyone is having is with your phrasing. You keep on saying "You cannot have a Word Bearer army without daemons, IMHO." What you should be saying is this - "I cannot have a Word Bearer army without daemons, IMHO." The first is dictating what others must do. The second is saying what you have limited yourself to. He doesn't mean you specifically, he is saying that in his view of the fluff an arbitrary player that is not fielding daemons in his Word Bearers force is not playing his army along the legion theme. He is entitled to his opinion just as you are entitled to not fielding daemons. Also, although obviously the WB would not always be capable of summoning etc I think that this game hinges a lot on themes and rule of cool and each legion has their "thing" that identifies them besides paint scheme. For WB it's daemons, for Iron Warriors it's big guns, for Night Lords it's raptors. Sure not every warband of each would have these if "in reality" but the game isn't very realistic, the whole 40k world is very stylized and in this stylized frame the WB field a lot of daemons, at least in my view and in his, you guys obviously don't have to agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Sage Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 The point is that if say, 300 Word Bearers with the support of, say, 2-3 million men at arms (a common 40k invasion force), invades a world far outside an unstable warp bubble, they would likely not be able to summon forth their daemonic allies in the initial battles. Only when the bloodshed and horror reaches the appropriate scales, are daemons easy to bring forth into the material universe. Did you read "Know no Fear"? If not I reccomend it, if nothing else just for the fun cultist stuff in there... Heh, nah, I haven`t. Thanks for the tip! Will certainly read it as long as its not Gav Thorpe (I have not managed to read anything he has written since warring myself through Last Chances). Does it focus on Chaos then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killax Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Because common sense also dictates that you will almost never have optimal resources to even have what your specialty is? Not to mention even if you do have all the cannons in the world and you aren't in a situation to use them, then you can't use the cannons. One final thing. The problem everyone is having is with your phrasing. You keep on saying "You cannot have a Word Bearer army without daemons, IMHO." What you should be saying is this - "I cannot have a Word Bearer army without daemons, IMHO." The first is dictating what others must do. The second is saying what you have limited yourself to. You can make up any reason up to not include them, there is nothing wrong with that. Unless your a schizo, not everybody has a problem with my phrasing. If you really feel you are limited by being able to add another whole army (Chaos Daemons) to your Chaos Space Marine army and fluff even supports that I think you have a rather limited thoughtpatron. Cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Word Lords! wait i mean Night Bearers! ahhh man tough call xD ...and both of those are actually pretty decent warband-names, hehe :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killax Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Word Lords! wait i mean Night Bearers! ahhh man tough call xD ...and both of those are actually pretty decent warband-names, hehe :D Word! :P The Night Words also could be a really cool Slaaneshi warband. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Word Lords! wait i mean Night Bearers! ahhh man tough call xD ...and both of those are actually pretty decent warband-names, hehe :D Word! :D The Night Words also could be a really cool Slaaneshi warband. Naughty! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NDC-OSPREY Posted September 30, 2012 Author Share Posted September 30, 2012 Also, your night lords are BEGGING for lighting bolts. I dont regard myself as a good painter at all, but the bolts really made my NL squads stand out. He does have some honest! They just are more on the side but I will probably give him some more yes. Word Lords! wait i mean Night Bearers! ahhh man tough call xD Hahaha, made me laugh anyway! I have decided to go Night Lords simply because I enjoyed painting them more. Simple as that really. Don't stop any good discussion about Legion tactics and background though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killax Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 The Night Words should not prefent you from painting nice lightningbolts! I mean glam-rock was all about the lightningbolts. http://www.thestyleking.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/david_bowie_ziggy_stardust.jpg http://images.ukfestivalguides.com/gallery_images/ace-frehley/ace-frehley_10.jpg etc. You could even make your Lord a Naughty Night Word Bearer! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roma Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Is it not clear to your warped mind? Is the answer not in plain sight? How can one prefer a group of unguided psychopaths, bastard offspring of a deranged murderer to the word bearers? Guided by faith, zeal, vision! Maybe I say that cus im a loyalist, but really its true. :D Correct me if im wrong, as I have read little fluff for either legion, but Conrad Curze died a deranged and broken man, without loyalties or vision. The word bearers have purpose, they understand why they exist, and what they must do. Plus their colours+flaming daemonic skull visage appeals to me more, especially the way you pain it. All i have to say for the night lords is that Raptor jet packs are boss! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NDC-OSPREY Posted September 30, 2012 Author Share Posted September 30, 2012 Many of the Night Lords have forgotten the teachings of Curze. He did have beliefs and a vision. It was just extremely warped. Chances are he would actually like the modern Imperium with its control through fear and force to protect people for a greater purpose. He died to show the hypocrisy of the Emperor. Or so he though in his mind. He was slightly mental in the end though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
totgeboren Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 I know I'm a bit late in the WB and Daemons debate, but for me, a player of the WB since 2ed, their Daemon focus in the 3.5 codex felt as forced as the Night Lords being all about Raptors. To put it like this, in their IA article is said this about daemons (this was during the middle of 3ed) "it is common for the Word Bearers to fight alongside hideous daemonic entities that have made diabolical pacts with the Dark Apostles." Though the article mainly pressed home their use of cultists as meat shields. Just read this small "fluff" text, ones of a few texts in the article to set the theme. "A month after the Word Bearers had landed, Captain Jarulek, together with his millions of new followers, launched his attack on the planetary rulers last bastion, the Palace of Light. The casualties amongst the populace were horrendous, thousands dying every minute as they charged the defended walls, armoured bastions and labyrinthine trench systems of the main gates armed with little more than pistols and spears." (Funny that I never realised where I heard the name 'Jarulek' before...) For me, having daemon allies is just as fitting as having IG allies, or having no allies at all. Some planets are just not well suited for daemonic summoning, and sometimes a Dark Apostle might not wish to make risky packs with daemons. Making deals with daemons always comes at a price, and if the need is not great I'm sure the WBs are able to handle most opposition themselves. Regarding the NL, they are really cool, and I highly recommend A D-Bs books centred around them. You have a bigger creative space to work with when it comes to the NL, as they are much less organised, and even within a single warband, the individual members can range from embittered atheists to all-out possessed chaos marines. The WB are a bit more uniform in their outlook on life and death, so to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 He doesn't mean you specificly'snip' Now let me stop you right there, I didn't say he was. How he used 'you' was in a manner that it addressed all hobbyists (which was your point) and I treated it as such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 I know I'm a bit late in the WB and Daemons debate, but for me, a player of the WB since 2ed, their Daemon focus in the 3.5 codex felt as forced as the Night Lords being all about Raptors. To put it like this, in their IA article is said this about daemons (this was during the middle of 3ed) "it is common for the Word Bearers to fight alongside hideous daemonic entities that have made diabolical pacts with the Dark Apostles." Though the article mainly pressed home their use of cultists as meat shields. Just read this small "fluff" text, ones of a few texts in the article to set the theme. "A month after the Word Bearers had landed, Captain Jarulek, together with his millions of new followers, launched his attack on the planetary rulers last bastion, the Palace of Light. The casualties amongst the populace were horrendous, thousands dying every minute as they charged the defended walls, armoured bastions and labyrinthine trench systems of the main gates armed with little more than pistols and spears." (Funny that I never realised where I heard the name 'Jarulek' before...) For me, having daemon allies is just as fitting as having IG allies, or having no allies at all. Some planets are just not well suited for daemonic summoning, and sometimes a Dark Apostle might not wish to make risky packs with daemons. Making deals with daemons always comes at a price, and if the need is not great I'm sure the WBs are able to handle most opposition themselves. Regarding the NL, they are really cool, and I highly recommend A D-Bs books centred around them. You have a bigger creative space to work with when it comes to the NL, as they are much less organised, and even within a single warband, the individual members can range from embittered atheists to all-out possessed chaos marines. The WB are a bit more uniform in their outlook on life and death, so to say. Exactly. In fact, from the Night Lords angle, the only focus on Raptors and Fast Attack is on the tabletop because of the fact that in the IA article, the Night Lord Legion specific rules allowed them to limit their Troop options in order to unlock two more Fast Attack options. Along with the fact that the Raptors article was right after them. This made the Night Lords the Raptors Legion even though in the same article, there was also one other little side note that they "Only attack when they know they have superior tactical advantage." I think we can all agree that that particular ship has sailed and sunk since I have yet to see any fluff that shows this level of foresight. Well, there was the time Periclitor killed a Chapter Master, but he's a Word Bearer now so it doesn't count anymore. This all ties into what I said earlier, the fluff is malleable. It changes. What once was may cease to be and what was once not may soon be. So yes, personal opinions on the fluff and different interpretations of the fluff are fine and dandy because they are all right. So saying that if someone who fields an army of Word Bearers without daemons is going against the fluff, is virtually the same as saying they are wrong simply because the fluff(please oh please notice the lack of the use of the word "canon" as it implies a strict structure where there is none) is right and the fluff does not agree with them. The reality is that is does agree with them. Like I said before, relying on something does not make it mandatory. It makes it a preferred method, but not the only one. The OP could decide to make a Word Bearers army that relies on Fast Attack Options and Troops Options in the form of Cultists with Mutilator Elites and a Sorcerer Lord with Forge/Maulerfiends for Heavy Support. We can't tell him that he is wrong for doing so because there is nothing in the Fluff that says he is wrong. And my point with the new "Word Bearers Main Fluff Snippet" is that if we go by the Codex snippet, since it no longer says anything about Daemons, one could strongly argue that all they are now are Church wreckers whose only purpose in life is to destroy the Ecclesiarchy. But, that's not true. Both are right. Just like the 3.5 article where it says that Night Lords painted lightning on their armor and decorated it with trophies and fetishes and the 4th Ed version where warp lightning crawls across their armor now are both right. It becomes a matter of personal opinion. As long as you stick to the core of the Legion, that which truly makes them unique, their flavor, their character, their personality, it doesn't really matter what your FoC is or what tactics you use. At the end of the day, it is your army and your fluff. If your choice is to always play Word Bearers with daemons, then great. If your choice is to never play Word Bearers with daemons, then that is great too. What makes it wrong is when one person says that the other is going against the fluff. Because the fluff actually supports both armies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkMark Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Night Lords literally got their own upgrade sprues in the new shiney Raptor box. The Bearers got, what, the Andrex DA? I know which one I'd choose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 It's just a resin version of the same metal upgrade sprue that's been around since 3.5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Let me just ... here. Here we go. http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/27118355.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 I'm still waiting for an opportunity to say that with my Alpha Legion, hehe... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Underbelly Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Which did you enjoy painting more? I suggest that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kizzdougs Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 It's just a resin version of the same metal upgrade sprue that's been around since 3.5. DarkMark is referring to the new raptors box. It will be an excellent source for NL conversions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Gotcha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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