space wolf Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 I'm not entirely sold on them yet vs 4 rocket or autocanon havocs. Especially with skyfire missiles which are one of those annoying metagame upgrades which are either really nice to have or do nothing. havocs are going to be a must have for all comers lists.... I don't think I fully agree with this, the NOVA Open the two top people had zero flyers and zero anti flyers, both beat flyer lists on their way to winning. To say that they are current a must have is a bit of a stretch so far. I need to correct this a bit, the Daemon player did have two daemon princes with wings. While they are flyers they are certainly not anti flyers. I disagree. If they can swoop, they can certainly target fliers much easier with a ranged attack. Additionally, as time goes on the amount of fliers we see in game is only going to get larger. I play guard, so I know how bad it can get when vendettas are rammed into your face, and you don't have any air support or anti-air contingencies. Its not pretty. That being said, I suppose you can get by without them by taking the drakes, but if it were me, I'd probably have one of each. The Space Wolf player who won had zero flyers and zero anti air. Also a daemon prince vector striking at str 7 vs most flyers isnt a big deal. Needing a 5 to glance is just a slow way to take them down. Also as time goes on and more codexs get some anti air upgrades or units, the amount of flyers we see will go down considerably. The only reason we see so many now is because of the lack of counter to them. quick question: Was the space wolf player playing with three long fang packs with 4 missile launchers? I'm just curious, because I'm wondering what his list was that he was able to put up enough volume of fire to take the fliers down. Also, I wonder how many fliers he had to deal with in any given game, and what he did about it (ie, try to shoot them down, or ignore them completely). These are all questions that, while may not seem relevant to your overall point, could shine a light as to why he won. Either way, I think we may just have to agree to disagree on this one... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262043-forgefiends-and-maulerfiends/page/3/#findComment-3191854 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfalypse Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 I'm not entirely sold on them yet vs 4 rocket or autocanon havocs. Especially with skyfire missiles which are one of those annoying metagame upgrades which are either really nice to have or do nothing. havocs are going to be a must have for all comers lists.... I don't think I fully agree with this, the NOVA Open the two top people had zero flyers and zero anti flyers, both beat flyer lists on their way to winning. To say that they are current a must have is a bit of a stretch so far. I need to correct this a bit, the Daemon player did have two daemon princes with wings. While they are flyers they are certainly not anti flyers. I disagree. If they can swoop, they can certainly target fliers much easier with a ranged attack. Additionally, as time goes on the amount of fliers we see in game is only going to get larger. I play guard, so I know how bad it can get when vendettas are rammed into your face, and you don't have any air support or anti-air contingencies. Its not pretty. That being said, I suppose you can get by without them by taking the drakes, but if it were me, I'd probably have one of each. The Space Wolf player who won had zero flyers and zero anti air. Also a daemon prince vector striking at str 7 vs most flyers isnt a big deal. Needing a 5 to glance is just a slow way to take them down. Also as time goes on and more codexs get some anti air upgrades or units, the amount of flyers we see will go down considerably. The only reason we see so many now is because of the lack of counter to them. quick question: Was the space wolf player playing with three long fang packs with 4 missile launchers? I'm just curious, because I'm wondering what his list was that he was able to put up enough volume of fire to take the fliers down. Also, I wonder how many fliers he had to deal with in any given game, and what he did about it (ie, try to shoot them down, or ignore them completely). These are all questions that, while may not seem relevant to your overall point, could shine a light as to why he won. Either way, I think we may just have to agree to disagree on this one... HQ1: Njal HQ(Guard): Primaris Psyker Elites1: Wolf Guard x4, 4x Terminator Armor, 4x Powerfist Elites2: Lone Wolf, Terminator Armor, Stormshield, Chainfist Elites3: Lone Wolf, Terminator Armor, Stormshield, Chainfist Troops1: Grey Hunters x10, 2x Plasma, Banner Troops2: Grey Hunters x10, 2x Plasma, Banner Troops3: Grey Hunters x10, 2x Plasma, Banner Troops4: Grey Hunters x10, 2x Melta, Banner Troops5: Grey Hunters x5, Flamer Troops(Guard): Platoon Command Squad Infantry Squad, Power Weapon (Axe) Infantry Squad, Power Weapon (Axe) Infantry Squad, Power Weapon (Axe) Infantry Squad, Power Weapon (Axe) Infantry Squad H.Support1: Long Fangs x5, 4x Missile Launchers H.Support2: Long Fangs x5, 4x Missile Launchers Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262043-forgefiends-and-maulerfiends/page/3/#findComment-3191951 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfalypse Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 This was the second place finishers list (notice the daemon princes do not have shooting weapons that can be used against flyers) HQ1: Fateweaver Elites1: Flamers x6, pyrocaster Elites2: Flamers x6, pyrocaster Elites3: Flamers x6, pyrocaster Troops1: Plaguebearers x5, Icon Troops2: Plaguebearers x5, Icon Troops3: Plaguebearers x5 Troops4: Plaguebearers x5 F. Attack1: Screamers x5 F. Attack2: Screamers x5 F. Attack3: Screamers x5 H.Support1: Daemon Prince, Wings, Iron Hide, Unholy Might, Breath of Chaos, Mark of Slaanesh, Aura of Acquiesence, Soporific Musk. H.Support2: Daemon Prince, Wings, Iron Hide, Unholy Might, Breath of Chaos, Mark of Slaanesh, Aura of Acquiesence, Soporific Musk. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262043-forgefiends-and-maulerfiends/page/3/#findComment-3191954 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfalypse Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Only trying to make the point that if you have enough infantry that the amount of flyers is sorta irrelevant, how many guardsman with FnP/5+ and possibly an invuln save from another psychic power kill a turn? Same can be done with cultists, however we will not be able to have a pile of power axes in our units, but the idea of having huge blobs and buffing them with powers still holds true. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262043-forgefiends-and-maulerfiends/page/3/#findComment-3191960 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Sage Posted September 30, 2012 Author Share Posted September 30, 2012 Only trying to make the point that if you have enough infantry that the amount of flyers is sorta irrelevant, how many guardsman with FnP/5+ and possibly an invuln save from another psychic power kill a turn? Same can be done with cultists, however we will not be able to have a pile of power axes in our units, but the idea of having huge blobs and buffing them with powers still holds true. Thank you! Interesting to see those lists. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262043-forgefiends-and-maulerfiends/page/3/#findComment-3192002 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slayer le Boucher Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Yeah thats something that pisses me off a bit. The maulerfiend is a combat oriented walker, everything he is, is meant for it, his speed, his 5++, his IWND rule, his powerfists, everything. So why did Phill give him a so low WS,I and A value?... Because he is Deamoncly Possesd?, well even so he could at least gave him a 4 in thoses stats to be at least on par with Dreads. Because of this the Mauler got from the possition of "walker killer" to "tanks&buildings killer", wich is nice, but you allready get enough to deal with them, so a CC monstrosity to deal with all the walkers going around could have been good. Well i'm saying this, but i'm one of the few who uses 4CCW Defilers, and their WS&I isn't any better..., while the A value is ace actually... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262043-forgefiends-and-maulerfiends/page/3/#findComment-3192530 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Exactly for the reasons you stated - the mauler is supposed to be our answer to heavy vehicles and buildings, not a general melee beatstick. Now, that's not exactly a super great role for a melee only option, even one as fast as the mauler, and in 6e its weakness to infantry is really going to show. Ideally, walkers should be supported by infantry of their own, but the mauler outruns pretty much everything of ours apart maybe from bikes & raptors, while those probably have better things to do than play babysitter for it. Or maybe not, I suppose a speedy raptors/bikes/mauler flanking wing might be scary.... On the one hand, I really feel the mauler's utility is way too narrow. I'd rather stick meltaguns on some bikes or raptors and have a unit that can hunt heavy tanks but also has other utility. It would have been nice if maulers were at least good against other walkers, but the WS and Init really hurts them there. On the other hand, the mauler isn't that pricey, clocking in at around the cost of a melee dreadnought while being a fair bit faster and tougher. So yeah, I don't know. I have no problem voicing early impressions or calling out options that I don't see working well, but I'm just not sure what to make of the mauler. I'm skeptical, but I'm just not sure. It certainly looks cooler than the more obviously functional (if considerably more pricey) forgefiend, so I'm sure there will be several players trying them out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262043-forgefiends-and-maulerfiends/page/3/#findComment-3192564 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 he has 4 attacks on the charge with bonus S8 AP1 attacks on top, show me another walker with that damage potential! the initiative is a negative, but its the same with all daemon possessed stuff and frankly it wouldnt be very balanced if it were of higher initiative Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262043-forgefiends-and-maulerfiends/page/3/#findComment-3192626 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 I'm debating the effectiveness of running the mauler next to a few rhino squads. Infantry could engage other walkers or mcs while mauler assaults infantry or armored vehicles. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262043-forgefiends-and-maulerfiends/page/3/#findComment-3192641 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Sage Posted October 1, 2012 Author Share Posted October 1, 2012 I think it might have a psychological impact as well. You dont really want it to reach your lines. Many armies still field a lot of vehichles, and there isn`t a vehichle in any codex that is safe from this thing. It`s pretty cheap. Its damnn fast. its tougher than a dread. IMO it looks good. The key will be to seek to avoid units with krak grenades, but thats true for ordinary dreads as well. But sure, it will often get blown up turn 1 and 2. But this might indeed save other mechanized elements of ones force from the same fire. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262043-forgefiends-and-maulerfiends/page/3/#findComment-3192646 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 I think it might have a psychological impact as well. You dont really want it to reach your lines. But sure, it will often get blown up turn 1 and 2. But this might indeed save other mechanized elements of ones force from the same fire. Same logic worked well with defilers last edition. Tougher demon engines make for an even better bullet sponge. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262043-forgefiends-and-maulerfiends/page/3/#findComment-3192665 Share on other sites More sharing options...
space wolf Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Only trying to make the point that if you have enough infantry that the amount of flyers is sorta irrelevant, how many guardsman with FnP/5+ and possibly an invuln save from another psychic power kill a turn? Same can be done with cultists, however we will not be able to have a pile of power axes in our units, but the idea of having huge blobs and buffing them with powers still holds true. Agreed, however, my argument is based on the assumption of a pure armylist (ie no allies). That was a bad assumption on my part (still in 5th ed mode). However, The fateweaver DOES have ranged attacks. And as a guard player, I know full well what they can do. I am surprised though that he didn't take a hydra battery, but two kitted out long fang packs were probably more utilitarian. I'm also willing to bet, he didn't face a heavy aircav list...but again my argument stands on a poor assumption... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262043-forgefiends-and-maulerfiends/page/3/#findComment-3192733 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Same logic worked well with defilers last edition. Tougher demon engines make for an even better bullet sponge. I wonder how a list of defilers and maulerfiends would do, possibly with a prince. That would be alot of in your face pressure on your opponent and a fun list to play. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262043-forgefiends-and-maulerfiends/page/3/#findComment-3192775 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Sage Posted October 1, 2012 Author Share Posted October 1, 2012 Same logic worked well with defilers last edition. Tougher demon engines make for an even better bullet sponge. I wonder how a list of defilers and maulerfiends would do, possibly with a prince. That would be alot of in your face pressure on your opponent and a fun list to play. Yes, thats what I have been writing here that I want to try :) 2 defilers, mauler fiend, landraider (instead of prince when below 2Kpoints) with some termies and a warpsmith. 2 units of Iron Warriors, and a dreadnought. The above is the list I am going to test approximatly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262043-forgefiends-and-maulerfiends/page/3/#findComment-3192780 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feste Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Ideally, walkers should be supported by infantry of their own, but the mauler outruns pretty much everything of ours apart maybe from bikes & raptors I think this is part of the key to understanding it. Think of it less as a walker and more as a tank that can assault, and a fast tank at that. A meltagun on a bike hits 2/3 of the time and you're going to get 2 shots per squad, and that's all that squad can do. The mauler is actually faster than the bike, attacks a Land Raider between 3-8 times and can annihilate it in a single turn. It's a 19" range meltagun. And it can do pretty well against other Walkers, MCs etc, not superbly but it can do it in a pinch; the bikes or raptors don't want to be anywhere near a MC. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262043-forgefiends-and-maulerfiends/page/3/#findComment-3192781 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 I was thinking just straight up like 3 defilers, 3-4 maulerfiends, either low point cost troops or likely noise marines, a DP and possibly a helldrake. All depending on points costs but it seems like it'd be a really in-your-face list and super fun to play. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262043-forgefiends-and-maulerfiends/page/3/#findComment-3192782 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Sage Posted October 1, 2012 Author Share Posted October 1, 2012 I was thinking just straight up like 3 defilers, 3-4 maulerfiends, either low point cost troops or likely noise marines, a DP and possibly a helldrake. All depending on points costs but it seems like it'd be a really in-your-face list and super fun to play. Won`t be fielding Noise with it. The reason? I finally feel that I can field a very interesting "in your face" Iron Warriors assault force. :) "The imperial whelps thinks their fortifications are too strong for our basilisk batteries, and they now gloat on their battlements, seeing no titans nor demolisher battery in our reserve forces to breach their walls. Well, I tell you men, that they have no idea what they are up against! Leutanant Kor Markos, order the slaves to open the blessed containers! Their walls are steep, so this is the time for us to unleash that which can scale it!" *cruel laughter follows* "We ride in our landraiders for optimal protection, men! And enginseers, you are ordered to overheat the engines at the moment the magma cutters breach the lower walls, as this is the time when we will storm them!" *Warriors shouting fiercly and making oaths, while ancient terminator veterans are moving slowly up the assault platform and into the confined space of the hallowed Landraiders* "Oh, and Kor Markos. Guide the assault machines towards the angled left walls over there! That will be where it will be the least time consuming to breach their walls. Imperial whelps! Never can they build a proper fortress without obvious structural flaws *shakes head in disgust* Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262043-forgefiends-and-maulerfiends/page/3/#findComment-3192796 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Makes sense. I just think Noise marines would be better in the one I posted because of their ratio of damage potential to point cost. They'd start putting pressure on your opponent the moment the game starts and I think it would work well as the engines move across the board. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262043-forgefiends-and-maulerfiends/page/3/#findComment-3192797 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verythrax Draconis Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 I love monster lists. I'm hoping to use field one with the new codex. Considering that fluff piece where Sons of Malice use other gods' daemons bounded, if would be fun to fill the table with those machines, modeling them with extra chains and such, like they were being used against their will :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262043-forgefiends-and-maulerfiends/page/3/#findComment-3192806 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Sage Posted October 1, 2012 Author Share Posted October 1, 2012 Makes sense. I just think Noise marines would be better in the one I posted because of their ratio of damage potential to point cost. They'd start putting pressure on your opponent the moment the game starts and I think it would work well as the engines move across the board. You may well be right. But I have often played with proxies in 5ed, using "counts as" zerkers and plague marines. It feels so good to be able to feel comfortable fielding a fluff correct force, so thats what I am going to try! :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262043-forgefiends-and-maulerfiends/page/3/#findComment-3192809 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfalypse Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Only trying to make the point that if you have enough infantry that the amount of flyers is sorta irrelevant, how many guardsman with FnP/5+ and possibly an invuln save from another psychic power kill a turn? Same can be done with cultists, however we will not be able to have a pile of power axes in our units, but the idea of having huge blobs and buffing them with powers still holds true. Agreed, however, my argument is based on the assumption of a pure armylist (ie no allies). That was a bad assumption on my part (still in 5th ed mode). However, The fateweaver DOES have ranged attacks. And as a guard player, I know full well what they can do. I am surprised though that he didn't take a hydra battery, but two kitted out long fang packs were probably more utilitarian. I'm also willing to bet, he didn't face a heavy aircav list...but again my argument stands on a poor assumption... Fateweaver does indeed have a bunch of shooting stuff, and i am sure he used it agianst flyers when he could, but vs an all flyer list Fateweaver would get wrecked himself after a single round of shooting. I know the SW player did face at least one Necron all flyer list and from what i had read he wiped the floor with the guy. He did have a ruling about one of the SW psychic powers causing hits vs a vehicle with no roll needed, go in his favor so that helped him out as well. But yeah, 8 MLs without flakk a turn isnt very quickly going to down flyers, probably just harass them more than anything. Play the objectives, a full out flyer list cannot claim objectives well and they got destroyed by armies who had a lot of infantry would could just sit on an objective and hold it for the duration of the game. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262043-forgefiends-and-maulerfiends/page/3/#findComment-3192817 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfalypse Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 I think Defilers are going to end up being better than either the Maulerfiend or Forgefiend. 6th edition is already showing that it is about a lot of foot soldiers claiming objectives and the fact is that the Defiler will better be able to clear those out than either of the other two Daemon Engine options. It could also be debated that he is better or close to as good in CC as the Maulerfiend, when you take all the extra CC weapons of course. Considering he is rumored to also have It Will Not Die and the Daemon USR, he is just as durable, better shooty vs ground units (crazy better vs blobs), can kill AR14 vehicles in CC almost as well as the Maulerfiend (str 10, 6 attacks on the charge), then to add on top of all of this he is vesitile and able to take up either role as needed. If he gets to keep fleet there is going to be no question which one is the best of the three. Just my two cents ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262043-forgefiends-and-maulerfiends/page/3/#findComment-3192832 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Sage Posted October 1, 2012 Author Share Posted October 1, 2012 I think Defilers are going to end up being better than either the Maulerfiend or Forgefiend. 6th edition is already showing that it is about a lot of foot soldiers claiming objectives and the fact is that the Defiler will better be able to clear those out than either of the other two Daemon Engine options. It could also be debated that he is better or close to as good in CC as the Maulerfiend, when you take all the extra CC weapons of course. Considering he is rumored to also have It Will Not Die and the Daemon USR, he is just as durable, better shooty vs ground units (crazy better vs blobs), can kill AR14 vehicles in CC almost as well as the Maulerfiend (str 10, 6 attacks on the charge), then to add on top of all of this he is vesitile and able to take up either role as needed. If he gets to keep fleet there is going to be no question which one is the best of the three. Just my two cents :P Yes, but I think its obvious that the defiler is better. But its also more expensive, Smurf ;) Sometimes you can`t afford 3 defilers. The fiend is also faster! Anyway, we`ll see. Still going to test 2 defilers, mauler fiend, dread and land raider with a few termies and maybe a lord, and then 2 units of Iron Warriors (3 if I can afford it) ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262043-forgefiends-and-maulerfiends/page/3/#findComment-3192841 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfalypse Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 I think Defilers are going to end up being better than either the Maulerfiend or Forgefiend. 6th edition is already showing that it is about a lot of foot soldiers claiming objectives and the fact is that the Defiler will better be able to clear those out than either of the other two Daemon Engine options. It could also be debated that he is better or close to as good in CC as the Maulerfiend, when you take all the extra CC weapons of course. Considering he is rumored to also have It Will Not Die and the Daemon USR, he is just as durable, better shooty vs ground units (crazy better vs blobs), can kill AR14 vehicles in CC almost as well as the Maulerfiend (str 10, 6 attacks on the charge), then to add on top of all of this he is vesitile and able to take up either role as needed. If he gets to keep fleet there is going to be no question which one is the best of the three. Just my two cents :P Yes, but I think its obvious that the defiler is better. But its also more expensive, Smurf ;) Sometimes you can`t afford 3 defilers. The fiend is also faster! Anyway, we`ll see. Still going to test 2 defilers, mauler fiend, dread and land raider with a few termies and maybe a lord, and then 2 units of Iron Warriors (3 if I can afford it) ^_^ True enough ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262043-forgefiends-and-maulerfiends/page/3/#findComment-3192859 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Funnily enough, I'm looking at a similar list to both Iron Sage and Tanith Ghost but I'd like to mix both iron warriors and emperors children. I'm not sure which to build as shooty or assaulty. As for the demon engines, I might start by taking one of each of the new ones plus defiler and add brutes for flavor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262043-forgefiends-and-maulerfiends/page/3/#findComment-3192891 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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