Forgefiends and Maulerfiends

[minigun762]

I would even go so far as to say that you dont need skyfire on all 4 models, if you arent fighting a vendetta swarm then 2 anti air launchers should be able to knock out the occasional flier. That saves 20 pts if you really need it.

Well in that case you don't need MLs on those two really and can save 10 points more as you switch them to autocannons...

 

And autocannons can still threaten a flyer if need be. Plus you get bonus cool points for not spamning 4 of the same heavies.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Tomorrow I'll get my two fiends and I still have to decide their loadout.

I'm unsure if goinging with 2 Forgefiends or with 1 Forgefiend and 1 Maulerfiend.

Target saturation will suggest 2 Forgefiends but with what weapons?

 

What do you think about 1 with 3 Ectoplasm Cannons and 1 with 2 Hades and possibly 1 ectoplasm? Too Expensive?

[Brother Ambroz]

Can you magnetize Shepard?

[Dallas Drake]

Tomorrow I'll get my two fiends and I still have to decide their loadout.

I'm unsure if goinging with 2 Forgefiends or with 1 Forgefiend and 1 Maulerfiend.

Target saturation will suggest 2 Forgefiends but with what weapons?

 

What do you think about 1 with 3 Ectoplasm Cannons and 1 with 2 Hades and possibly 1 ectoplasm? Too Expensive?

 

If going with 2 Forgefiends I'd go with 2x Hades & 1x Ecto or just the cheaper option of 2x Hades. 3x Ecto is risky yes with Gets Hot, but it's the shorter 24'' range that might be a problem.

 

Dallas

[minigun762]

Tomorrow I'll get my two fiends and I still have to decide their loadout.

I'm unsure if goinging with 2 Forgefiends or with 1 Forgefiend and 1 Maulerfiend.

Target saturation will suggest 2 Forgefiends but with what weapons?

 

What do you think about 1 with 3 Ectoplasm Cannons and 1 with 2 Hades and possibly 1 ectoplasm? Too Expensive?

 

I think I'm going to go with one of each. That said, the smart money is one either magnets or some count as testing before commiting.

 

I don't think they third ecto gun is worth it, too expensive for an already expensive unit.

 

Unrelated, is anyone considering replacing the magma cutters with the gropy tentacles? It feels like a side grade at best and not worth the point increase.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Tomorrow I'll get my two fiends and I still have to decide their loadout.

I'm unsure if goinging with 2 Forgefiends or with 1 Forgefiend and 1 Maulerfiend.

Target saturation will suggest 2 Forgefiends but with what weapons?

 

What do you think about 1 with 3 Ectoplasm Cannons and 1 with 2 Hades and possibly 1 ectoplasm? Too Expensive?

 

If going with 2 Forgefiends I'd go with 2x Hades & 1x Ecto or just the cheaper option of 2x Hades. 3x Ecto is risky yes with Gets Hot, but it's the shorter 24'' range that might be a problem.

 

Dallas

 

The 24" is the main issue with them. Even if suffer a gets hot you still fire with the remaining cannons (it applies to the single weapon not to the entire vehicle) then you lose a hull point on a roll of 1-3 and you have a 5++ invul and it shall not die.

 

The range is problem, though. Hades is 36", right?

If they advance with our other units they may be within 24" range but they have to lose a turn of fire....

 

EDIT:

 

Tomorrow I'll get my two fiends and I still have to decide their loadout.

I'm unsure if goinging with 2 Forgefiends or with 1 Forgefiend and 1 Maulerfiend.

Target saturation will suggest 2 Forgefiends but with what weapons?

 

What do you think about 1 with 3 Ectoplasm Cannons and 1 with 2 Hades and possibly 1 ectoplasm? Too Expensive?

 

I think I'm going to go with one of each. That said, the smart money is one either magnets or some count as testing before commiting.

 

I don't think they third ecto gun is worth it, too expensive for an already expensive unit.

 

Unrelated, is anyone considering replacing the magma cutters with the gropy tentacles? It feels like a side grade at best and not worth the point increase.

 

1 Forge and Mauler was my first plan, then I started to think about AV12 in CC and their survivability.

However they may be not so fragile as it seemed. There are a lot of units that cannot harm it but I3 and WS3 is a problem, unless the fiend starts to hunt for vehicles (this seems to be it's primary role).

The fact it is a pontential turn 2 charge is very alluring and as additional value it is cheaper then forgefiend. It is also a good way to keep your other units safe from enemy fire.

 

I see a good synergy in maulers and Nurgle Spawns. When they both move towards enemy lines they will play a good distraction.

 

I think the Tentacles are not worth the two magna cutters. You pay points for reducing the number of models in base to base but you lose those nice S8 armour bane attacks....

[Dallas Drake]

I think the Tentacles are not worth the two magna cutters. You pay points for reducing the number of models in base to base but you lose those nice S8 armour bane attacks....

 

See this is my issue right here mate. The Maulerfiend is simply not good in melee (WS3, I3, 2A) which is what its designed for. Tentacles make them more survivable since they reduce the damage it will take at higher I steps. If it can't deal with a vehicle/walker without magma-cutters then it's kind of a useless vehicle since that's its whole point. It's almost as if GW think we've all pulled our meltaguns off all of our models, this thing just doesn't cut it IMO. Plus what's going to happen when it goes up against MCs? Imagine playing Nids with 2 of these, Carnifex, Trygons etc, they'll rip it apart!

 

Dallas

[minigun762]

I'm not convinced maulers are bad yet. They really have 3 attacks thanks to 2 fists and combined with the large charge range, they will often have that bonus. All they need is one hit for a magma cutter so their damage output is significantly higher than their stats would indicate. The same for their durability.

[Iron Sage]

I'm not convinced maulers are bad yet. They really have 3 attacks thanks to 2 fists and combined with the large charge range, they will often have that bonus. All they need is one hit for a magma cutter so their damage output is significantly higher than their stats would indicate. The same for their durability.

 

I think they can do fine if you run land raiders and spawns with them. But you must choose to sacrifice dakka then obviously

[Urauloth]

I really want to like the mauler but it's kind of.... underwhelming. The magma cutters are nice and all but it really needs them to do anything like enough reliable damage.

[minigun762]

I really want to like the mauler but it's kind of.... underwhelming. The magma cutters are nice and all but it really needs them to do anything like enough reliable damage.

 

I'm confused why people are doubting the killing potential. It makes me second guess myself as to whether I'm reading the rules correctly. On the charge, it will have 4 attacks, against most targets that means it should score at least one hit 93% of the time. That means 93% of the time you're going to be able to add a melta bomb's worth of damage to the target after you smack them with a fist. And once a game you can blow your super cooldown to do more damage.

[Urauloth]

I think the big problem is the av12 on a huge model that depends entirely on getting into melee. It should kill any vehicle it charges, but an awful lot of things can put it down before it gets across the field, and it's a huge target.

 

The fact that several loyalist dreads have more armour (putting them past the krak grenade threshold) really bugs me, but that's probably just a kneejerk reaction and not a considered assessment of the mauler's attributes and uses.

 

I'd be very glad to be wrong about it, though, honestly, because I really want one.

[minigun762]

Things to consider

 

#1 12" movement range with reliable charging and running bonuses regardless of cover, stunning or shaking. This thing will get to where you need it to be quickly and reliably.

 

#2 IWND gives it the equivalent of 4HP (if someone wants to run the numbers I'd be interested).

 

#3 Native inv save, like packing your own cover save around on all the time. Take that dumb melta weapon!

 

#4 Cheap(ish) price tag.

[ChaosPhoenix]

I have a question about the Maulerfiends. Some pages ago you've stated, that you can get up to 4 bonus attacks, because of two Magma Cutters, but I'm not so sure about that. Yes it has two cutters, but the rules state:

 

Magma Cutters

If a Maulerfiend hits with at leasl one Attack in the Fight sub-phase, it may make an additional Attack with one of its magma cutters against one of the models hit. If it hit with all of its Altacks, it instead makes two additional Attacks with its magma cutters against one of the models it hit.

 

So does it include both cutters in this rule or just one. It's always plural which is confusing for me.

[Lepaca]

I think it's +2 attacks for a hit +4 if you hit with everything.

[Dallas Drake]

Things to consider

 

#1 12" movement range with reliable charging and running bonuses regardless of cover, stunning or shaking. This thing will get to where you need it to be quickly and reliably.

 

#2 IWND gives it the equivalent of 4HP (if someone wants to run the numbers I'd be interested).

 

#3 Native inv save, like packing your own cover save around on all the time. Take that dumb melta weapon!

 

#4 Cheap(ish) price tag.

 

All down the drain when it charges in at I3. Fail.

 

The only thing I see these threatening is;

 

- Vehicles

- Some infantry units

 

See, my meltabombs/meltaguns/armour bane stuff can do this AND other stuff, I think when you focus on the inflexability & single utility of the Maulerfiend it just gets found out. Plus, I'm not wiling to spend £40 to find out either!

 

 

 

 

 

I have a question about the Maulerfiends. Some pages ago you've stated, that you can get up to 4 bonus attacks, because of two Magma Cutters, but I'm not so sure about that. Yes it has two cutters, but the rules state:

 

Magma Cutters

If a Maulerfiend hits with at leasl one Attack in the Fight sub-phase, it may make an additional Attack with one of its magma cutters against one of the models hit. If it hit with all of its Altacks, it instead makes two additional Attacks with its magma cutters against one of the models it hit.

 

So does it include both cutters in this rule or just one. It's always plural which is confusing for me.

 

From reading it in the codex I'd say it's quite straight forward: +1 Magma attack for one hit, +2 Magma attacks for all hits. Pretty crap when you consider its WS3.

 

 

 

 

Dallas

[Cmdr Shepard]

Things to consider

 

#1 12" movement range with reliable charging and running bonuses regardless of cover, stunning or shaking. This thing will get to where you need it to be quickly and reliably.

 

#2 IWND gives it the equivalent of 4HP (if someone wants to run the numbers I'd be interested).

 

#3 Native inv save, like packing your own cover save around on all the time. Take that dumb melta weapon!

 

#4 Cheap(ish) price tag.

 

#1 and #4 are very nice traits.

We all know I3 WS3 will be a strong limitation against MEQ, we also know AV 12 is not very resiliant BUT:

 

A mauler fast moving toward enemy lines is a wonderful distraction and if they concetrate fire on it they are keep your most expensive unit safe -_- After all the mauler costs about 4 Terminators.

Grenades on Space Marines may create problems but even though they hit the mauler on 3+ they need a 6 to glance it. The greatest threat is the sergeat with I1 meltabombs.

 

Beside you have to be smart and send the mauler against the right targets. Imagine a turn 2 charge against those rifleman dread, especially the GK ones. Or you could destroy a transport and get first blood point.

 

It is cheap enough to be nearly expendable, if it plays a role in a greater agenda :P

[ChaosPhoenix]

I have a question about the Maulerfiends. Some pages ago you've stated, that you can get up to 4 bonus attacks, because of two Magma Cutters, but I'm not so sure about that. Yes it has two cutters, but the rules state:

 

Magma Cutters

If a Maulerfiend hits with at leasl one Attack in the Fight sub-phase, it may make an additional Attack with one of its magma cutters against one of the models hit. If it hit with all of its Altacks, it instead makes two additional Attacks with its magma cutters against one of the models it hit.

 

So does it include both cutters in this rule or just one. It's always plural which is confusing for me.

 

From reading it in the codex I'd say it's quite straight forward: +1 Magma attack for one hit, +2 Magma attacks for all hits. Pretty crap when you consider its WS3.

Dallas

 

Yes I'm just not sure if a Magma Cutters are the whole pair or just one of them. Because they're always called Cutters, plural. If it would be +1 / +2 for each cutter (so +2/ +4), it would be better. If you're looking at the model, it has a lot of cutters. I'm just not sure. I think I'll wait before buying it.

[TheDarkApostle]

Pretty crap when you consider its WS3.

Just remember Magma Cutter attacks hits automatically. Bypassing the WS problem entirely.

 

TDA

[Urauloth]

Right, but you're never likely to hit with all 4 ws3 attacks to land that extra melta hit. (on the other hand, you've a pretty decent chance of hitting with at least one attack and getting a single bonus melta hit)

 

How will the mauler perform against anything that isn't a vehicle? It's vulnerable to krak grenades, it's never going to hit on better than a 4+, and it doesn't have a lot of initiative. It stands a good chance of squishing one ot two enemies a turn, but that's nowhere near enough against a lot of infantry, and terminators will get invun saves and likely annihilate the mauler with their fists/hammers when they get to strike.

 

Seems to me like it's only really useful against vehicles, and while that's a decent enough specialization depending on what you fight, there are other ways of killing them from further away or with units that can also attack other targets (melta raptors and bikes come to mind) without giving up a heavy support slot.

[Feste]

Seems to me like it's only really useful against vehicles, and while that's a decent enough specialization depending on what you fight, there are other ways of killing them from further away or with units that can also attack other targets (melta raptors and bikes come to mind) without giving up a heavy support slot.

I'd dispute this, but looking at it's anti-vehicle potential for now it's worth pointing out that moving as a Beast, it's essentially a 19" Meltagun. You've got things that can glance stuff to death from further, but nothing with the same potential range that can as reliably put a good number of Str 10 and Str 8 Melta hits on a vehicle.

 

That WS3 is no problem against a Land Raider and with 4 (+1-2 Magma) attacks on the charge is equivalent to a Havok squad equipped with Melta, and that squad is more expensive with a Rhino than the Mauler.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Seems to me like it's only really useful against vehicles, and while that's a decent enough specialization depending on what you fight, there are other ways of killing them from further away or with units that can also attack other targets (melta raptors and bikes come to mind) without giving up a heavy support slot.

I'd dispute this, but looking at it's anti-vehicle potential for now it's worth pointing out that moving as a Beast, it's essentially a 19" Meltagun. You've got things that can glance stuff to death from further, but nothing with the same potential range that can as reliably put a good number of Str 10 and Str 8 Melta hits on a vehicle.

 

That WS3 is no problem against a Land Raider and with 4 (+1-2 Magma) attacks on the charge is equivalent to a Havok squad equipped with Melta, and that squad is more expensive with a Rhino than the Mauler.

 

This is a good point.

I'm starting to reconsider my opinion on the whole Forges vs Maulers matter. Forgefiends are quite expensive and they require points you may want to allocate on other units.

 

Those fast moving metal beast, on the contrary, are cheaper and they are a threat the enemy will unlikely ignore, bringing their attentions away from more "valuable" targets.

Beside imagine if your opponent field a Fortress of Redemption :D It's not a common sight but there were a couple of persons at local store who wanted to try it...

 

Anyway, I think the mauler can be useful even under more common circumstances.

 

Talking about "charge range"... it moves 12", then charge 2d6" with Fleet, so you can reroll the lower dice or both of them ;) up to 24" (if you are very lucky but even the average charge distance you mentioned is quite impressive)... then add the usually 12" you "gain" during deployiment and you can cover 31" (average)/ 36" of the table. If you are lucky you can get a Turn 1 charge, especially if the enemy moves before you or the deployment place themon the edge of their zone.

[Dallas Drake]

I have a question about the Maulerfiends. Some pages ago you've stated, that you can get up to 4 bonus attacks, because of two Magma Cutters, but I'm not so sure about that. Yes it has two cutters, but the rules state:

 

Magma Cutters

If a Maulerfiend hits with at leasl one Attack in the Fight sub-phase, it may make an additional Attack with one of its magma cutters against one of the models hit. If it hit with all of its Altacks, it instead makes two additional Attacks with its magma cutters against one of the models it hit.

 

So does it include both cutters in this rule or just one. It's always plural which is confusing for me.

 

From reading it in the codex I'd say it's quite straight forward: +1 Magma attack for one hit, +2 Magma attacks for all hits. Pretty crap when you consider its WS3.

Dallas

 

Yes I'm just not sure if a Magma Cutters are the whole pair or just one of them. Because they're always called Cutters, plural. If it would be +1 / +2 for each cutter (so +2/ +4), it would be better. If you're looking at the model, it has a lot of cutters. I'm just not sure. I think I'll wait before buying it.

 

Good idea! I think I'll proxy it with my friends Carnifex he never uses. On page 68 although it does use the word 'cutters' it clearly says ''an additional attack'' and ''two additional attacks'', so I think it's that irrespective of how many actual Magma Cutters the model has. Hopefully it will get FAQ'd soon!

 

Seems to me like it's only really useful against vehicles, and while that's a decent enough specialization depending on what you fight, there are other ways of killing them from further away or with units that can also attack other targets (melta raptors and bikes come to mind) without giving up a heavy support slot.

I'd dispute this, but looking at it's anti-vehicle potential for now it's worth pointing out that moving as a Beast, it's essentially a 19" Meltagun. You've got things that can glance stuff to death from further, but nothing with the same potential range that can as reliably put a good number of Str 10 and Str 8 Melta hits on a vehicle.

 

That WS3 is no problem against a Land Raider and with 4 (+1-2 Magma) attacks on the charge is equivalent to a Havok squad equipped with Melta, and that squad is more expensive with a Rhino than the Mauler.

 

Good points, but it's basically got the same role as an MM attack bike then? I still think it's a lot of points for what it is. Also, do you think something that size is going to get chance to Magma a LR? Target saturation in mech list? Definitely!

 

PS. Can anyone think what the hell they'd do against Nids if running 2 of these?

 

Dallas

[Feste]

I'm actually quite liking the lasher tendrils. The rulebook mentions that they stack, so 2 Maulerfiends in base contact with, for example, a Carnifex, will reduce it's attacks by 4. That's how I'd deal with Nids, make sure they've got a single attack each :)

 

The magma cutters are nice, but until it's FAQ'd that the attacks are doubled up I'm not sure I'll touch them. Also, I really like the Lasher tendrils. With 3/4 attacks I'm not certain the extra melta is strictly necessary.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Good points, but it's basically got the same role as an MM attack bike then? I still think it's a lot of points for what it is. Also, do you think something that size is going to get chance to Magma a LR? Target saturation in mech list? Definitely!

 

PS. Can anyone think what the hell they'd do against Nids if running 2 of these?

 

Dallas

 

Since it ignores terrain it wouldn't be difficult to put it where it can't be hurt. Remember that if a ruin cover the 25% of it you have a 4+ cover save :). Since its movement is unfacted by any kind of terrain your only limitation is distance, and 12" is not a small one. Unless you are unlucky with terrain placement you should have enough scenary to keep it out of sight or at least protected.

 

By the way what do you actually mean with the line about Nids? Do you mean the maulers will create problems to Nids or vice versa?