Forgefiends and Maulerfiends

[Dallas Drake]

Good points, but it's basically got the same role as an MM attack bike then? I still think it's a lot of points for what it is. Also, do you think something that size is going to get chance to Magma a LR? Target saturation in mech list? Definitely!

 

PS. Can anyone think what the hell they'd do against Nids if running 2 of these?

 

Dallas

 

Since it ignores terrain it wouldn't be difficult to put it where it can't be hurt. Remember that if a ruin cover the 25% of it you have a 4+ cover save :). Since its movement is unfacted by any kind of terrain your only limitation is distance, and 12" is not a small one. Unless you are unlucky with terrain placement you should have enough scenary to keep it out of sight or at least protected.

 

By the way what do you actually mean with the line about Nids? Do you mean the maulers will create problems to Nids or vice versa?

 

Oh yes, good points about ignore cover. Ok, I will try these.

 

Re: Nids, no I mean what will they actually do!? Can you think of a role for them against a Nids army (imagine one with at least 4 MCs).

[Feste]

Oh yes, good points about ignore cover. Ok, I will try these.

 

Re: Nids, no I mean what will they actually do!? Can you think of a role for them against a Nids army (imagine one with at least 4 MCs).

With 4 MCs, I'd assume you'll be supporting squads to take down the MCs. Against a Fearless bug swarm, I reckon it'd be really annoying for them if you use your speed to charge his termagaunts with them. They can't hurt it, and it leaves the rest of your army un-tied up. Reversal!

[Cmdr Shepard]

Oh yes, good points about ignore cover. Ok, I will try these.

 

Re: Nids, no I mean what will they actually do!? Can you think of a role for them against a Nids army (imagine one with at least 4 MCs).

With 4 MCs, I'd assume you'll be supporting squads to take down the MCs. Against a Fearless bug swarm, I reckon it'd be really annoying for them if you use your speed to charge his termagaunts with them. They can't hurt it, and it leaves the rest of your army un-tied up. Reversal!

 

Since the 4 MC will be forced to be in base to base contact they will lose from 2 to 4 attacks. All of those little bugs will be unable to hurt maulers. The have S3, right? So even if they are granted rendering they still need a 6 and a consequent 5/6 to glance them.

[Feste]

Oh yes, good points about ignore cover. Ok, I will try these.

 

Re: Nids, no I mean what will they actually do!? Can you think of a role for them against a Nids army (imagine one with at least 4 MCs).

With 4 MCs, I'd assume you'll be supporting squads to take down the MCs. Against a Fearless bug swarm, I reckon it'd be really annoying for them if you use your speed to charge his termagaunts with them. They can't hurt it, and it leaves the rest of your army un-tied up. Reversal!

 

Since the 4 MC will be forced to be in base to base contact they will lose from 2 to 4 attacks. All of those little bugs will be unable to hurt maulers. The have S3, right? So even if they are granted rendering they still need a 6 and a consequent 5/6 to glance them.

Yep, and even 'stealers will be doing it on 1 attack, so they'll be lucky to get any damage done.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Oh yes, good points about ignore cover. Ok, I will try these.

 

Re: Nids, no I mean what will they actually do!? Can you think of a role for them against a Nids army (imagine one with at least 4 MCs).

With 4 MCs, I'd assume you'll be supporting squads to take down the MCs. Against a Fearless bug swarm, I reckon it'd be really annoying for them if you use your speed to charge his termagaunts with them. They can't hurt it, and it leaves the rest of your army un-tied up. Reversal!

 

Since the 4 MC will be forced to be in base to base contact they will lose from 2 to 4 attacks. All of those little bugs will be unable to hurt maulers. The have S3, right? So even if they are granted rendering they still need a 6 and a consequent 5/6 to glance them.

Yep, and even 'stealers will be doing it on 1 attack, so they'll be lucky to get any damage done.

 

True.

 

So the current trend, the ones emerging from our tactical discussions, seems to be "mauler are more cost effective then forges" or are forges still considered a better choice?

 

I was comparing the Hades cannons Forgefiend with a GK psyrifleman dread and despite the cost difference the fiends does not appear to perform much better.

 

Anyway I know this topic is just about the fiends but have any of you already thought about a Daemon Engines (including defilers/ helldrake) spam list?

With two FoC at 2000pts you have room for a good number of engines but you will struggle to find available points for the rest :down:

[Killax]

Not necessarily THE HS choice, havocs are still arguably better.

 

I would almost agree here but Oblis with MoN just feel better allround, they GET STUFF DONE!

 

Most important reason to field them above else is because they are able to save theirselfs in pretty much any combat also.

Slow and Porposeful actually makes them even more deadly because of their ability to move and shoot heavy weapons, templates etc.

Allround THE HS choice for tournaments.

 

Ontopic:

Im looking foward to the first mechspam list of CSM.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Not necessarily THE HS choice, havocs are still arguably better.

 

I would almost agree here but Oblis with MoN just feel better allround, they GET STUFF DONE!

 

Most important reason to field them above else is because they are able to save theirselfs in pretty much any combat also.

Slow and Porposeful actually makes them even more deadly because of their ability to move and shoot heavy weapons, templates etc.

Allround THE HS choice for tournaments.

 

Ontopic:

Im looking foward to the first mechspam list of CSM.

 

The problem with Obliterators is the unit size. Sure MoN and 2W save the day but I suspect massed fire will bring them down. It's not always a bad thing. It depends on what the enemy ignored to shoot them ;)

 

Back on topic:

I'm very curious to see a "deamon mech spam" list or a mechspam with a good number of daemon engines.

 

I started to assemble my first fiend and I think the first one will be a mauler... Magnetize the options for the Forgefiend is not difficult but magnetize the models in order to turn a mauler into a forge and vice verse seems more difficult.

 

The Forge weapons are nice but one is 24" and the other suffer from BS3. 8 S8 shots, 4 hits. Good against transport but what about MEQ infantry... let's say 1 MEQ dead? And it is expensisve.

If I want a 24" blast weapon why not a vindicator? It does not have all of those daemon rules but it is cheaper and with AV 13 on the front.

 

By the way while I was assembling the fiend main body I noticed it has a very nice profile (it's shape not its stats :) ). It is large but 25% of its front is not that difficult to conceal. If you add the fact it ignores terrain you may find athe way to keep it protected while it hunts for its prey.

[Feste]

If I want a 24" blast weapon why not a vindicator? It does not have all of those daemon rules but it is cheaper and with AV 13 on the front.

Well, one thought is that I can assault a Vindicator and punch it right in the cannon with a Powerfist. A Forgefiend, although not great in CC, is still a Walker and can probably stand up to a small opportunist unit for a turn or two.

 

As an example, I've run small units of Biker Boyz with a Power Klaw Nob, a Vindicator would get one shot on them and then dies horribly. Not sure what they'd do against a Walker.

[Cmdr Shepard]

If I want a 24" blast weapon why not a vindicator? It does not have all of those daemon rules but it is cheaper and with AV 13 on the front.

Well, one thought is that I can assault a Vindicator and punch it right in the cannon with a Powerfist. A Forgefiend, although not great in CC, is still a Walker and can probably stand up to a small opportunist unit for a turn or two.

 

As an example, I've run small units of Biker Boyz with a Power Klaw Nob, a Vindicator would get one shot on them and then dies horribly. Not sure what they'd do against a Walker.

 

Good point. The problem is the Forge will still struggle against such unit. It does not have power fists so it strikes at S6 with no armour ignoring attacks and they will hit the walker on 3+ anyway (it has WS3).

 

You gain 5++ invul and +2 AV (AV 10 from hitting the rear of vindicator vs AV12 of the fiend's front armour) which is not bad. I don't know if it is worth it's cost.

Before the Codex release I thought I would have assembled at least one three Ectoplasm cannons fiend. Now I'm reconsidering it. 24" is not that bad, though if it cann support the advance of other units...

This is getting a tough decision :)

[Feste]

Good point. The problem is the Forge will still struggle against such unit. It does not have power fists so it strikes at S6 with no armour ignoring attacks and they will hit the walker on 3+ anyway (it has WS3).

 

You gain 5++ invul and +2 AV (AV 10 from hitting the rear of vindicator vs AV12 of the fiend's front armour) which is not bad. I don't know if it is worth it's cost.

Before the Codex release I thought I would have assembled at least one three Ectoplasm cannons fiend. Now I'm reconsidering it. 24" is not that bad, though if it cann support the advance of other units...

This is getting a tough decision ;)

Oh sure, it's not going to win that fight but it might hold them up either so that you can get some help into the fight, or just for it's own sake.

 

Theoretically 3 blast markers will be more likely to hit something than a single large blast. One of them should get a 'Hit' result, but while the large blast is more likely to get something, if it deviates a lot than that's your lot for the turn.

 

Also, the firepower of the Forgefiend degrades more gracefully; no annoying weapon destroyed results leaving you with an AV13 Rhino :(

[ChaosPhoenix]

One thing to consider with havocs (long fangs, devs etc.) is how long they'll live, when a Heldrake with a Baleflamer vector strikes & shoots at them.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Good point. The problem is the Forge will still struggle against such unit. It does not have power fists so it strikes at S6 with no armour ignoring attacks and they will hit the walker on 3+ anyway (it has WS3).

 

You gain 5++ invul and +2 AV (AV 10 from hitting the rear of vindicator vs AV12 of the fiend's front armour) which is not bad. I don't know if it is worth it's cost.

Before the Codex release I thought I would have assembled at least one three Ectoplasm cannons fiend. Now I'm reconsidering it. 24" is not that bad, though if it cann support the advance of other units...

This is getting a tough decision ;)

Oh sure, it's not going to win that fight but it might hold them up either so that you can get some help into the fight, or just for it's own sake.

 

Theoretically 3 blast markers will be more likely to hit something than a single large blast. One of them should get a 'Hit' result, but while the large blast is more likely to get something, if it deviates a lot than that's your lot for the turn.

 

Also, the firepower of the Forgefiend degrades more gracefully; no annoying weapon destroyed results leaving you with an AV13 Rhino :P

 

My original plan was to build 1 Maulerfiend and 1 Ectoplasm Forgefiend. What do you think?

 

One thing to consider with havocs (long fangs, devs etc.) is how long they'll live, when a Heldrake with a Baleflamer vector strikes & shoots at them.

 

The Heldrake is highly underestimated in my opinion. The chance to kill a dev/fangs or equivalent squad sitting in cover is priceless. It has its limits like any flyer but I don't think it's as bad as many think.

It's not even that expensive, if you think about it. It has a 5++ invul (most flyers have to "evade" and snapshot next turn just to get a 5+ cover save), and regenerate hull points.

 

I can imagine how pleasing burning those long fangs to death would be :lol:

Beside it can vector strike flyers, rhinos and most AV11 side armoured vehicles before unleashing its vengeful flames.

Seriously, how can it be so bad?

[minigun762]

I was comparing the Hades cannons Forgefiend with a GK psyrifleman dread and despite the cost difference the fiends does not appear to perform much better.

 

My understanding is that its generally known that the GK version is too effective for the price tag and if the book was redone today, that price would increase.

 

Not that it changes anything now, just that using it as a comparison will make almost anything look weak.

[Killax]

A few dozen sketch-lists futher and kep this in mind:

 

2x Heldrake

3x Forgefiend

 

Adds up to 865 But is quite the "support" Generally going to hit 20 S8 hits which should be able to wrack some havoc onto armour imho.

 

Now I personally don't know if the flamer on the drake is the best option yet. Being able to pop all amounts of light vechicles also feels good so far...

 

As we speak I am not the biggest fan of the Ectoplasm, going up 25 points matters a lot, while the shot is incredible good I like to spread more special weaponry amongst the rest of the army for some reason...

 

Onto the sketch-lists again :D

 

Cheers,

[minigun762]

2x Heldrake

3x Forgefiend

 

I like to cover my bases, so with an army like that I would probably field 1:1 flamer vs hades for the chickens and a 2:1 hades vs ecto for the fiends. That would give you 3 hades on 2 types of platforms as its the most general purpose of all the weapons, while the flamer and ecto are available for the more specialized roles.

[Killax]

I like to cover my bases, so with an army like that I would probably field 1:1 flamer vs hades for the chickens and a 2:1 hades vs ecto for the fiends. That would give you 3 hades on 2 types of platforms as its the most general purpose of all the weapons, while the flamer and ecto are available for the more specialized roles.

 

I fully understand. I guess only ingame would make me make the descission.

The thing is I feel somewhat mweh when because of our bs 3 the template will scatter 1" to far.

 

Cheers,

[Cmdr Shepard]

I was comparing the Hades cannons Forgefiend with a GK psyrifleman dread and despite the cost difference the fiends does not appear to perform much better.

 

My understanding is that its generally known that the GK version is too effective for the price tag and if the book was redone today, that price would increase.

 

Not that it changes anything now, just that using it as a comparison will make almost anything look weak.

 

You are right about GK dread... no doubt ;) I was just wondering if the Forgefiend would be an effective unit.

 

 

 

I'm about to build my two fiends, as I said, and I have not decided their loadouts.

So for a so called "all comers" army what do you suggest 1 mauler and 1 forge or two forges?

 

Any idea... it seems it is getting one of the most complex decisions in the new Codex... well at least right now. ;)

 

A few dozen sketch-lists futher and kep this in mind:

 

2x Heldrake

3x Forgefiend

 

Adds up to 865 But is quite the "support" Generally going to hit 20 S8 hits which should be able to wrack some havoc onto armour imho.

 

Now I personally don't know if the flamer on the drake is the best option yet. Being able to pop all amounts of light vechicles also feels good so far...

 

As we speak I am not the biggest fan of the Ectoplasm, going up 25 points matters a lot, while the shot is incredible good I like to spread more special weaponry amongst the rest of the army for some reason...

 

Onto the sketch-lists again ;)

 

Cheers,

 

Well with 2 drakes I'll give the flamer to at least one of them. It's ability to kill MEQ in cover is priceless. It allows you to clear objectives in no time. How many SM use smal scuots units to hold objectives?

A burst and they are dead depriving your opponent of a victory point. And what about those Eldar rangers with insane 2+ cover saves? The drake will turn an nearly impossible to kill unit to an easy kill.

 

Let us know how you sketch-list evolve... I'm very interested.

Anyway have you ever thought about playing a Warpsmith? He may fill the them nicely and he will also repair your vehicles...

[minigun762]

I'm about to build my two fiends, as I said, and I have not decided their loadouts.

So for a so called "all comers" army what do you suggest 1 mauler and 1 forge or two forges?

 

I'm feeling mauler & forge but then again I seem to be in the minority who think that the mauler isn't total poop.

 

If someone was just looking for easy answer for their heavy slots and didn't want to think about it too much, my advice would probably be:

 

1x forgefiend with hades

5-6 havocs with 2 skyfire missiles and 2 autocannons

2x obliterators

 

The main advantage of all of these units is that they provide long range (36"+) firepower that can threaten flyers, transports and most battle tanks out there. They're not for busting AV14 at range because I believe its too difficult for Chaos to field enough lascannons to do that effectively. AV13 and below though, is all viable targets.

[Mutt-Man!]

Hi. Skimmed through the 7 pages to be sure I don't repeat (much) of what was said already. Going to touch on maulers.

 

Already mentioned:

The 12" charge. Magma Cutters. Lashers. 5++ save. IWND. (Plus the other details about it)

Not really mentioned:

It costs only 20 points more than a brute/nought for similar performance in melee to a degree. Not bad.

 

So let me put down some scenarios for you to digest this.

 

1. The speed helps negate melta weapons effectiveness at half range. Allowing for a flank of about three of these monsters get chewed up real fast, perhaps with support. Avoiding going head long in the middle where he can move stuff around and get some meltas on you. Stressing melta lists considerably.

 

2. You have a full blown list of walkers intending on dooming the enemy, and you've balanced it out with some twin las on the brutes, a defiler, maybe allies with three hydra tanks and a single/duo of Maulers. The maulers job is to be the "raptors/gaunts/any other fast stuff" that armies rely on to tie the enemy up to make sure they don't escape. Then hammer it home with the other walkers soon after. That 12" movement is godlike for this demon, it really has a spot in a zilla list.

 

3. Monstrous creature hunting. Lasher tendrils do this very well (detail mentioned). But another part not mentioned is that if it gets into base contact with another walker, that stat difference starts falling. The 5++ save, the IWND regeneration, it all curves the tide towards the mauler. Sure, less magma cutter goodness, it curves the drawbacks of no grenades/I3 tremendously. If you cut 50% to a whole 66% of the enemies attacks, that means he needs that many more turns to statistically beat you.

 

4. Lasher abuse. Have it be followed by a unit of warp talons, or whatever else you like to have around that does a lot of damage yet is a small unit. If you fear for their well being, have the very quick mauler lead the way. Then have the assisting unit pile in on what the mauler charged. The mauler will keep them 2 attacks safer in the majority of situations, very reliable. Especially when you absolutely must have that charge, like a khorne unit relies on. Note you don't need the lashes, it's just a good idea since the assisting unit will do the damage. Then because you always challenge the enemy character, that power fist won't be swinging at the mauler that round! (too awesome with an I5 model like mark of slaanesh champs, etc)

 

5. Having it for its intended use. Know those damn buildings? Ever felt like ruining one with enemies inside? Do you like bikes but hate the fact they're screwed by buildings? A bike army with one of these to keep them safe is a really nice synergy! A fast dreadnought to (finally) move with the pace of bike forces. Instead of plowing points into powerfist champs, you could funnel those points towards a mauler, maybe two.

 

So with the ways a mauler can be useful where most/all other units can't fill such a role as well... This bring more preference for the model? (I can't help if you hate the look, though)

 

 

For the subject on anti aircraft. Please note that if you bring enough twin-linked weapons, you don't have to buy a heavy support for the role. Remember if they focus on your basket that has all your eggs, you're basically dead in the water right? A few brutes with reapers, maybe a defiler with a reaper, pack a few more guns filling up heavy support and voila. If your opponent didn't shove 50-70% of his points into flying things, you'll be fine. A twin linked weapon counts as two weapons if you miss entirely with the first try. So if you pack a reaper autocannon, it's basically almost two autocannons. That means two reapers are a havoc squad of autocannons. See where this is going? Forgefiends count too with their 8 shots at being effective vs fliers. 1 Las predator per 300 points or so. If you count doubling the list at 2000, you take 6 predators for 840 points and that is too much firepower for fliers the opponent will bring.

 

Now onto forgefiends.

 

8 shots at AP 4, hitting half the time. That's fine for its cost. But I want to talk durability. It has 5++ at AV12, most will argue close combat or being like a defiler beyond 48" range weapons is the best way AV12 survives. I don't refute that, but I can say you can live with AV12. Just give them other targets to shoot at so this monster can do its work. Statistically it will ruin a rhino every turn. But it has trouble with AV14's, so plan for that with a vindicator or something else. Vindicators hit groups, AP2, str 10 slapping hard things etc. Blasts are too good to pass by this edition. While the stragglers can be plucked by the Forgefiend. Especially if you catch say, some crisis suits in cover or otherwise spread thin. A one-two combo of hammer and anvil of blast first, pluck stragglers second. Having the blast is a good balance for AP2. Then after all this, count on it being shot at too with all these nasty heavy supports taking the anti tank firepower. Know those autocannons that he won't fire at the vindicator? He'll not shoot your rhinos, because he's aiming them at your Forgefiend! Grim aspect, but one to consider still. A gradual ladder of armor from 11, 12 and 13 for him to aim or bait-aim his guns at. Leaving your rhinos unscathed the turn or two you need them to be. With any luck he gets glances that get regenerated later (after 5++ saves, muaha).

 

I know, walls of text. Sorry about that. Thoughts on any of this would be appreciated.

[Slayer le Boucher]

About the fact that the Mauler doesn't have equivalant of nades or something.

 

Now i might be mistaken and so ignore me competly, but if a model, doesn't have to pass a difficult terrain check to get to his target, then doesn't he strike at initiative order?

 

I mean if its the case, yeah sur he will still strike after the grenades in the case of a SM squad, but he will strike before the PF sergeant..., giving him a chance to obliterate the unit, self thing with any other walkers, none of them apart from Ironclads have nades equivalant, so the tactic(once again if i'm right) is to lure them into terrain, and use your superior mobility to charge them while in the terrain, and thus striking before they do.

 

I had such a case a while ago, where me and a buddy where playing, My Undivided GD was in a piece of terrain, but its base was just at the border of the terrain, while my friend charged with a unit of termies, i was like"ok i strike before you, because you don't have nades and i'm in the terrain".

 

The other players, who are serious tourney mongers, pointed out, that since he did not enter the terrain to come in BtB contact with me, he din't have to make a test, and thus he din't have to strike at Init 1 with his LC's termies.

 

Now it might be changed in the current rules, but thats what i though off right now, and completly disregard this post if i'm mistaken.

[Cmdr Shepard]

I'm about to build my two fiends, as I said, and I have not decided their loadouts.

So for a so called "all comers" army what do you suggest 1 mauler and 1 forge or two forges?

 

I'm feeling mauler & forge but then again I seem to be in the minority who think that the mauler isn't total poop.

 

I wonder if it possible to build a model as a mauler and then magnetize or put the weapons on its shoulders so we can use the model to represent both versions...

 

About the fact that the Mauler doesn't have equivalant of nades or something.

 

Now i might be mistaken and so ignore me competly, but if a model, doesn't have to pass a difficult terrain check to get to his target, then doesn't he strike at initiative order?

 

I found this in the FAQ:

 

Q: Do models that ignore difficult terrain when moving or charging

still fight at Initiative step 1 if they charge through difficult terrain?

(p22)

A: Yes.

 

That means our mauler will attack at Initiative 1 if it charge through difficult terrain. It's not so bad since with 4 attacks in charge it wouldn't be able to kill every model before the I1 sergeat can strike and I3 means it will attack after SM anyway.

 

I still wonder about the reason of such interpratation: it suffers the effects of what is ignores.... strange...very strange, indeed :D

 

@ Mutt-Man!

 

Very detailed and interesting analysis. I agree with you about the fact the mauler is not completely useless. It can be very useful indeed. The only problem is to see when you can gain better advantages with something else.

[Mutt-Man!]

@ Mutt-Man!

 

Very detailed and interesting analysis. I agree with you about the fact the mauler is not completely useless. It can be very useful indeed. The only problem is to see when you can gain better advantages with something else.

Thanks.

 

The problem you pointed out can apply to just about any unit. It really depends on both sides unit composition and experience of the user/player(s). Currently the Mauler is the only walker they can take with 12" movement, so for now a number of those uses are more or less Maulerfiend preferred.

[Captain Idaho]

Striking last because models are behind cover is hardly a big issue considering there isn't really THAT much terrain to hide behind. And even so, the thing is AV12 and has some decent rules to keep it alive, and it's pretty fast.

 

Besides, I don't see people moaning about Bloodthirsters not having grenades!

 

I'm actually liking the Maulerfiend, but then that's because I love Walkers and take mechanised armies as standard.

[Slayer le Boucher]

Striking last because models are behind cover is hardly a big issue considering there isn't really THAT much terrain to hide behind. And even so, the thing is AV12 and has some decent rules to keep it alive, and it's pretty fast.

 

Besides, I don't see people moaning about Bloodthirsters not having grenades!

 

I'm actually liking the Maulerfiend, but then that's because I love Walkers and take mechanised armies as standard.

Yeah but a Bloodthirster has a 3+/4++ save and a WS9...,those two makes a lots of differences.

[SamaNagol]

I can't see why you would take a Maulerfiend over a Chaos Daemon ally, or a Forgefiend over Obliterators.

 

Not with AV12 in Plasma Edition