Forgefiends and Maulerfiends

[minigun762]

See, I'd think the forgefiends would win out every time over plasma obliterators. The obliterators can only fire them every other turn; forgefiend fires every turn. You only need S1 to hurt obliterators; S6 to hurt fiends. Ectoplasm can insta-gib paladins and most other annoyances, and crack transports better than plasma cannons. Obliterators get a better save, sure, but that's mainly it.

 

Maybe I'm underestimating the impact of the forced weapon changes for oblits. Against most targets, I feel like the extra range and accuracy of the plasma cannons will be better than ecto and if I need to go for instant kills I'd still have the lascannon.

I think it's the short 24" range of the fiend that I find so limiting.

[Seahawk]

It's no more limiting than a Vindicator, yet they get darling reviews. ;)

 

As for accuracy, it's only a 1" difference. Yea, sometimes that matters, but 1/3 of the time it means nothing at all. :)

[minigun762]

It's no more limiting than a Vindicator, yet they get darling reviews. ;)

 

As for accuracy, it's only a 1" difference. Yea, sometimes that matters, but 1/3 of the time it means nothing at all. :)

 

Touche good sir.

[Cmdr Shepard]

See, I'd think the forgefiends would win out every time over plasma obliterators. The obliterators can only fire them every other turn; forgefiend fires every turn. You only need S1 to hurt obliterators; S6 to hurt fiends. Ectoplasm can insta-gib paladins and most other annoyances, and crack transports better than plasma cannons. Obliterators get a better save, sure, but that's mainly it.

 

We have the same opinion on the oblits plasma cannon versus ecto. I'm still a little concerned about their range and, most importantly, their cost: they are quite expensive. Anyway a full ecto forge cost as much as 2 helbrutes, so it may not be so illogical for what you get. :P

 

So if I'd build my two fiends as 1 mauler and 1 ecto forge would I have two viable units or should I focus on a loadout for target saturation? I'll add Huron, spawns and infiltrate a unit due to Huron's trait (possibly TDA).

 

I doubt I'll be going to play such army in a tournament (I suppose a tournament will require a different approach) but I plan to use in "friendly competitive" matches.

[Smurfalypse]

See, I'd think the forgefiends would win out every time over plasma obliterators. The obliterators can only fire them every other turn; forgefiend fires every turn. You only need S1 to hurt obliterators; S6 to hurt fiends. Ectoplasm can insta-gib paladins and most other annoyances, and crack transports better than plasma cannons. Obliterators get a better save, sure, but that's mainly it.

 

We have the same opinion on the oblits plasma cannon versus ecto. I'm still a little concerned about their range and, most importantly, their cost: they are quite expensive. Anyway a full ecto forge cost as much as 2 helbrutes, so it may not be so illogical for what you get. :P

 

So if I'd build my two fiends as 1 mauler and 1 ecto forge would I have two viable units or should I focus on a loadout for target saturation? I'll add Huron, spawns and infiltrate a unit due to Huron's trait (possibly TDA).

 

I doubt I'll be going to play such army in a tournament (I suppose a tournament will require a different approach) but I plan to use in "friendly competitive" matches.

 

I find them to fragile for their points costs. They really needed AR13 or something, even for the Defiler, AR12 is just to fragile for the amount of points that are required. The Mauler is probably okay for its points but needed a few more attacks on its profile to help out (2 is just bad for a designated CC walker). The Defiler needed AR13 for its cost and the Forgefiend needed to be a little bit lower in points or AR13 as well.

 

I keep putting them in lists and I find myself asking why I dont just run x3 oblits, a full 10 man Havoc squad, two predators or a Demolisher. Their points vaules just do not add up well to what they do. The Defiler is decent (though costs as much as a Land Raider with the power scourge), the other two are not so decent.

 

My opinion anyway .

[Panda_]

When you are comparing forgefriends to havocks, oblits, you mentionned the forgefriends have 1 less BS.

 

But please, please, don't forget about Daemonforge. That little trick is nasty. It basicly means you hardly miss, and you will kill close to your full potential. Don't say it's only going for the first turn, because one turn is enough to break the balance.

 

On my part, I value them for their insane killing power. However, they'll simply die to the first 4 autocanons havock seen (and the price tag isn't even).

[Smurfalypse]

When you are comparing forgefriends to havocks, oblits, you mentionned the forgefriends have 1 less BS.

 

But please, please, don't forget about Daemonforge. That little trick is nasty. It basicly means you hardly miss, and you will kill close to your full potential. Don't say it's only going for the first turn, because one turn is enough to break the balance.

 

On my part, I value them for their insane killing power. However, they'll simply die to the first 4 autocanons havock seen (and the price tag isn't even).

 

Daemonforge does not allow you to reroll hits, only rolls to wound or armor pen. So you still miss half the time.

 

Also you have to announce it at the beginning of the phase, before they shoot/attack in CC. So basically if you have a bad roll that turn, you wasted your Daemonforge ability.

[Panda_]

Oh my my my,

 

Ignore the previous post. I've checked before posting, and still read it wrong. Thanks for the head up, I was about to spread this nonsense into HellDrake analysis.

 

By the way, 2 months ago Kirby posted a small statistics about Heavy Weapons team (Longfangs, BA Devastators) and their changes in 6th. It came up that Longfangs trashed everyone, while BA Devas weren't bad. While they often killed their av11/12/13 targets, they were still a fair % to let them alive. Then he mentionned Autocanons havocks that every one dismissed for more being expensive/bad. Their % to kill were higher.

 

Now that they are cheaper. Autocanons havocks might be the stars of the show (baring shooting at LR/Termis).

[minigun762]

Also you have to announce it at the beginning of the phase, before they shoot/attack in CC. So basically if you have a bad roll that turn, you wasted your Daemonforge ability.

 

Based on the moderate durability of the demon engines, I think I'll be using demonforge on turn 1-2 to make sure that I'm able to use it before they're taken out.

 

I really want to use the demon engines, as they're something unique to Chaos. Sure I could use Oblits, but I never was a huge fan of the models. I kinda feel stuck , trying to weigh personal preference against table top effectiveness, especially when that effectiveness is still being determined.

[Nehekhare]

I kinda feel stuck , trying to weigh personal preference against table top effectiveness, especially when that effectiveness is still being determined.

 

this. + beginning to think this codex was designed to make everything playable but mediocre - so in the end, your choice of units will not matter at all.

[Cmdr Shepard]

See, I'd think the forgefiends would win out every time over plasma obliterators. The obliterators can only fire them every other turn; forgefiend fires every turn. You only need S1 to hurt obliterators; S6 to hurt fiends. Ectoplasm can insta-gib paladins and most other annoyances, and crack transports better than plasma cannons. Obliterators get a better save, sure, but that's mainly it.

 

We have the same opinion on the oblits plasma cannon versus ecto. I'm still a little concerned about their range and, most importantly, their cost: they are quite expensive. Anyway a full ecto forge cost as much as 2 helbrutes, so it may not be so illogical for what you get. <_<

 

So if I'd build my two fiends as 1 mauler and 1 ecto forge would I have two viable units or should I focus on a loadout for target saturation? I'll add Huron, spawns and infiltrate a unit due to Huron's trait (possibly TDA).

 

I doubt I'll be going to play such army in a tournament (I suppose a tournament will require a different approach) but I plan to use in "friendly competitive" matches.

 

I find them to fragile for their points costs. They really needed AR13 or something, even for the Defiler, AR12 is just to fragile for the amount of points that are required. The Mauler is probably okay for its points but needed a few more attacks on its profile to help out (2 is just bad for a designated CC walker). The Defiler needed AR13 for its cost and the Forgefiend needed to be a little bit lower in points or AR13 as well.

 

I keep putting them in lists and I find myself asking why I dont just run x3 oblits, a full 10 man Havoc squad, two predators or a Demolisher. Their points vaules just do not add up well to what they do. The Defiler is decent (though costs as much as a Land Raider with the power scourge), the other two are not so decent.

 

My opinion anyway .

 

But the mauler is not so expensive for a unit tasked to put pressure on the emeny and that ignores terrain. You should be able to keep it hidden behing a ruin wall for a turn and charge the subsiquent one.

It has 4 attacks in charge plus the cutters ones. It's an anti vehicle unit or an assent to block units that cannot damage it (there aren't only SM out there :D )

When you play at 2000 pts with 2 FoC you may use one of those 6 Heavy slots for putting pressure on your opponent.

 

That makes me think if I should assemble both kits as maulers. I doubt they will see alot of action and when they'll do I don't think I will spend all of those points of a three ecto forge. I'm not convinced about the hades: it's just 4 S8 AP4 hits; they are pinning shots though...

 

1+1 seems the most "balanced" descision. Since I bought them just because I was curious about the new daemon engines models 1+1 sounds a fair choice....

[Smurfalypse]

See, I'd think the forgefiends would win out every time over plasma obliterators. The obliterators can only fire them every other turn; forgefiend fires every turn. You only need S1 to hurt obliterators; S6 to hurt fiends. Ectoplasm can insta-gib paladins and most other annoyances, and crack transports better than plasma cannons. Obliterators get a better save, sure, but that's mainly it.

 

We have the same opinion on the oblits plasma cannon versus ecto. I'm still a little concerned about their range and, most importantly, their cost: they are quite expensive. Anyway a full ecto forge cost as much as 2 helbrutes, so it may not be so illogical for what you get. :lol:

 

So if I'd build my two fiends as 1 mauler and 1 ecto forge would I have two viable units or should I focus on a loadout for target saturation? I'll add Huron, spawns and infiltrate a unit due to Huron's trait (possibly TDA).

 

I doubt I'll be going to play such army in a tournament (I suppose a tournament will require a different approach) but I plan to use in "friendly competitive" matches.

 

I find them to fragile for their points costs. They really needed AR13 or something, even for the Defiler, AR12 is just to fragile for the amount of points that are required. The Mauler is probably okay for its points but needed a few more attacks on its profile to help out (2 is just bad for a designated CC walker). The Defiler needed AR13 for its cost and the Forgefiend needed to be a little bit lower in points or AR13 as well.

 

I keep putting them in lists and I find myself asking why I dont just run x3 oblits, a full 10 man Havoc squad, two predators or a Demolisher. Their points vaules just do not add up well to what they do. The Defiler is decent (though costs as much as a Land Raider with the power scourge), the other two are not so decent.

 

My opinion anyway .

 

But the mauler is not so expensive for a unit tasked to put pressure on the emeny and that ignores terrain. You should be able to keep it hidden behing a ruin wall for a turn and charge the subsiquent one.

It has 4 attacks in charge plus the cutters ones. It's an anti vehicle unit or an assent to block units that cannot damage it (there aren't only SM out there :) )

When you play at 2000 pts with 2 FoC you may use one of those 6 Heavy slots for putting pressure on your opponent.

 

That makes me think if I should assemble both kits as maulers. I doubt they will see alot of action and when they'll do I don't think I will spend all of those points of a three ecto forge. I'm not convinced about the hades: it's just 4 S8 AP4 hits; they are pinning shots though...

 

1+1 seems the most "balanced" descision. Since I bought them just because I was curious about the new daemon engines models 1+1 sounds a fair choice....

 

A 125pt ish unit that can ONLY kill vehicles. Sorry but that is just a little to specialized for its own good, and then only have two base attacks is very very poor. It has no chance vs a squad with grenades or a single dude with a power fist.

Just way to specialized for its points, as is it really needs to be 100ish base.

[Iron Sage]

Mmm, to be honest....I have defended the mauler fiends more than a bit. Still think it can be viable in certain preassure lists, but spawns actually do the same when I come to think of it.

 

How many tanks have AV 12 and above as rear armour? Not that many, so Spawns deal quite well with tanks and moves exactly like the mauler fiends.

 

Would still like to try 2 mauler fiends, 3 units of spawns, 1 land raider as base for an army list though!

[Killax]

I will still never use Maulerfiends for the simple reason of being a huge block of armour who only gets usefull in CC.

 

The Forgefiend is superior on all fronts imho.

 

That combined with the fact that CSM allround are good in CC allready I personally feel the Maulerfiends adds to little.

 

Then again it can always be cool to have one, but his size makes me go mweh.

[minigun762]

Mmm, to be honest....I have defended the mauler fiends more than a bit. Still think it can be viable in certain preassure lists, but spawns actually do the same when I come to think of it.

 

How many tanks have AV 12 and above as rear armour? Not that many, so Spawns deal quite well with tanks and moves exactly like the mauler fiends.

 

Would still like to try 2 mauler fiends, 3 units of spawns, 1 land raider as base for an army list though!

 

Interesting... Spawns you free up heavy slots which are always the first to get filled for me.

It's not as good against the demolisher type leman russ but it can still hurt them

[Cmdr Shepard]

A 125pt ish unit that can ONLY kill vehicles. Sorry but that is just a little to specialized for its own good, and then only have two base attacks is very very poor. It has no chance vs a squad with grenades or a single dude with a power fist.

Just way to specialized for its points, as is it really needs to be 100ish base.

 

An unit SPECIALIZED to kill vehicles :). It can kill other models too and most importantly it can block enemies unit. A necron warriors unit cannot hurt it unless they give it a Lord with scythe but giving a a lord with scythe and possibly orb to every unit of Necron warriors in your army tend to be a little expensive.

They could send scarabs to help the unit but you have spawns to deal with them.

I'm not saying the mauler is auto-include but I think it's not totally useless.

 

Mmm, to be honest....I have defended the mauler fiends more than a bit. Still think it can be viable in certain preassure lists, but spawns actually do the same when I come to think of it.

 

How many tanks have AV 12 and above as rear armour? Not that many, so Spawns deal quite well with tanks and moves exactly like the mauler fiends.

 

Would still like to try 2 mauler fiends, 3 units of spawns, 1 land raider as base for an army list though!

 

I am among the "mauler defenders" too. As I said not being auto-include does not mean being useless. ;)

 

I was thinking about adding a Lord on juggernaut to a unit of spawns. He would make the spawns even more dangerous.

 

I will still never use Maulerfiends for the simple reason of being a huge block of armour who only gets usefull in CC.

 

The Forgefiend is superior on all fronts imho.

 

That combined with the fact that CSM allround are good in CC allready I personally feel the Maulerfiends adds to little.

 

Then again it can always be cool to have one, but his size makes me go mweh.

 

The Forge will rarely allow you to "out-shoot" shooty armies, unless, perhaps, if you go with the Ectos but you it costs nearly as much as a Land Raider.

The mauler add SPEED to a combat oriented army.. it's not to be underestimated.

We may find better choices, of course but it does not add nothing.

 

When I think about the 8 BS3 AP4 shots I can't imagine they will change the game.