Codex Space Marine powers

[Captain Idaho]

The last thread we had here discussing which "lore" in the rule book was the most useful for our Librarians was very good but I feel we skipped over the discussion of the faithful powers we've always had at our side.

 

As such I want to rekindle the discussion about Librarians, focussing initially on the Codex powers and which powers suit which type of Librarian (defined by armanment and upgrades), against which kind of opponents and missions in what type of army. Moving forward, if it's relevent, then the rule book tables are perfectly fine to discuss. Long as we have a decent amount of information fulfilling the primary objective.

 

I'd like a 101 of Librarians to be created one day, and might do a Tactica if I get the time myself, though if anyone else wants to don't let me monopolise your desires!

 

******

 

Starting off, I am using a Librarian (Level 1 Codicier) in Termiantor armour and sporting a Storm Shield and Force Axe. His role in my army is three-fold;

 

1) Provision of Null Zone. Nuff said.

 

2) Tactical option "plan a", which consists of his Gate of Infinity power being to apply pressure against opponents and put a full footslogging Tactical squad on their doorstep. This is to be used against armies like Imperial Guard and Tau primarily, but also heretic Space Wolves that operate like Iron Warriors instead of the ferocious warriors they are supposed to be. These armies don't really require Null Zone and won't likely have a threat that requires "plan b".

 

3) Tactical option "plan b". This is to reorganise the Tactical squad he will accompany back to fire support and the Librarian joining the Chapter Master and Honour Guard in a Landraider, to break the opponent decisively and take advantage of a pair of Storm Shields and multi-wound Look Out Sir! rolls to ensure the survival of the attack force for as long as possible. This combination will be useful against Daemons, Marine armies and the like, where the Honour Guard will become too dangerous to counter charge for many of the enemy units but too difficult to remove cheaply.

 

But I do want to provide a fourth main role to the Librarian, and that of course is the use of Biomancy against Tyranids and maybe Dark Eldar, since they are both armies the main two powers will be limited in use for. I actually like ALL of the Biomancy powers against these two armies! Enfeeble being the best of course!

 

Any opinions or separate options people want to discuss? I toyed with the idea of Machine Curse since it is guaranteed Hull Point, which can be useful.

 

Now, with regards to the Codex powers, I do want to point out that the Codex powers are pretty useful and enable you the critical benefit of choice.

[Lord Ragnarok]

This is timely as I was thinking a termie Libby would be a good add to Pedro and honor guard in a land raider.

I was thinking codex powers and biomancy would be best.

 

-............

On the sw comment, we WILL be having a conversation about that! :) :)

[Captain Idaho]

This is timely as I was thinking a termie Libby would be a good add to Pedro and honor guard in a land raider.

I was thinking codex powers and biomancy would be best.

 

-............

On the sw comment, we WILL be having a conversation about that! :huh: :P

 

Is it trolling to make a comment to provoke a Space Wolf Mod colleague? :P

 

Totally agree with your choice of the order of powers matey. What Codex powers would you like? Obviously Null Zone, but I also considered Force Dome had I not intended the Librarian to accompany a Tactical squad and Gate them around.

[Lord Ragnarok]

If codex definitely force dome, not sure what else.

 

For non codex two from Biomancy.

[Dosjetka]

So would Null Zone be a better option than Force Dome in most cases?

 

I'd see FD being pretty useful in low-Troops armies or protecting other such vital units, but then as taking down the opponent's warlord (who usually has an Inv. save) is pretty important VP-wise, would it be a "better" choice?

 

Ludovic

[Captain Idaho]

I'm feeling Null Zone is actually best against tough/problem units that need to be killed so generally I wouldn't necessarily use it against a lone IC in a challenge in favour of Force Doming a unit to protect them against opponents, but the problem is Null Zone paired with Force Dome are both wanting to be used in the same circumstances so hard choices need to be taken.

 

For example, if you're fighting a Terminator squad you would probably want Null Zone to help kill them, but then you'd probably also enjoy the Invulnerable save of Force Dome!

 

Not that Honour Guard should be assaulting Terminators, but we get the point!

[Dosjetka]

So would, in the above cases, the 50 point Epistolary upgrade be worth it? Yes, I know that people don't like taking it as it makes the Librarian cost a lot more than he should, but it could be pretty nifty in this case, don't you think?

 

Ludovic

[Lord Ragnarok]

I'm feeling Null Zone is actually best against tough/problem units that need to be killed so generally I wouldn't necessarily use it against a lone IC in a challenge in favour of Force Doming a unit to protect them against opponents, but the problem is Null Zone paired with Force Dome are both wanting to be used in the same circumstances so hard choices need to be taken.

 

For example, if you're fighting a Terminator squad you would probably want Null Zone to help kill them, but then you'd probably also enjoy the Invulnerable save of Force Dome!

 

Not that Honour Guard should be assaulting Terminators, but we get the point!

 

Is an Epistolary upgrade warranted then? I was thinking more force dome for HQ since they don't have any.

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Whoops!

Missed post above.

[Dosjetka]

Is an Epistolary upgrade warranted then? I was thinking more force dome for HQ since they don't have any.

But if you get Terminator armour for your Librarian, you don't really need Force Dome for your HQ choice. And if you take a Tactical Squad, they should be able to soak up a bit of damage (though less in assault, it seems) before the situation becoming critical.

 

Maybe the way to go, to maximise protection but not have to take the Epistolary upgrade is by podding a Tactical Squad with a TDA Librarian. And maybe add a Drop Pod Dreadnought to help the Tactical Squad out with assaults?

 

Just throwing up ideas here :devil:

 

Ludovic

[Captain Idaho]

5+ is fairly inconsistent for small numbers to reliably benefit, so I'm not sure it is worth it. I suppose, combined with a Storm Shield Librarian leading from the front and Look Out Sir! You can really reduce wounds on a unit.

 

It's a funny one I'm still undecided on!

[Kua]

I’m not sure whether leading from the front is that attractive at all. You’ll have to decide whether to take the hits with (and use the saving throws of) your character or to try LOS. While it’s nice to have the choice your libby only has 2 wounds and LOS is 4+ only…

 

About the 5++ power:

I could imagine it usefull on a libby with power armour in a squad sternguard or like that. (What would he do there anyway? Gate-porting?)

Just to throw in one more idea.

[Captain Idaho]

That's just it though, Librarians are independent characters and therefore benefit from Look Out Sir! rolls on a 2+, therefore making his storm shield and Terminator armour incredibly potent.

[Kua]

Ah, ok, my fault.

But you still have either LOS and roll for a regular marine or the IC’s 2+/3++. You probably will use the IC’s 2+ until he loses one wound and then begin with LOS with the exception of AP 3 or also AP 2 hits the IC have a save against and PA-Marines don’t. Right?

Btw, one rule question:

When saving against one salve from a single enemy unit, can you roll saves one after one and in the middle decide to begin with testing for LOS (i.e.. after the IC lost one of two wounds)?

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I think the Biomancy lore is a good pick, if you wanna swap out for the usual 'Gate'+'Null Zone' standard issue. Biomancy has a terrible Primaris but all of the random spells are great, so hopefully you roll 'Iron Arm' and rolfstomp their characters. I'd always take the Epistolary upgrade for a Biomancy Librarian, you'll wanna be using your force axe as much as possible with those powers (its a close-combat lore).

 

For codex powers, 'Gate' and 'Null Zone' are just too good not to take. 'Gate' can bring a Sternguard squad across the table into rapid-fire/heavy flamer range, letting you pick on backfield units who thought they were safe (Long Fangs, Broadsides, Lootaz etc). 'Gate' can also be used defensively, to rip a Hammernator unit away from the front-line to threaten an objective you're about to lose. 'Null Zone' doesn't need to be cast every turn (thus saving you points for the Epistolary upgrade if you wish, although I usually take it anyway), which frees up a force weapon or a 'Gate' casting. When it is though, elite infantry suffer horribly (Terminators in particular). Daemons forfeit if they know you have it. 24" aura is the kicker, it just screams 'I win' when you accompany the Libby with a Hammernator bodyguard. Even Lords of Change avoid you.

 

 

Don't take power armoured Librarians. Terminator armour+storm shield+force axe is pretty much the best build from 5th, tweaked for 6th (ie specifying his force weapon as an axe for the +1 Strength and all-important AP2). He's a lover, not a fighter, but you still want your 2-3 attacks to do something. Pedro can help, as does getting the charge. Power armoured Librarians are just too squishy, been a problem since 3rd edition.

[Captain Idaho]

Ha, seems Gate and Null Zone are the winners so far. Certainly my choice. Anyone else care to weigh in?

[Kua]

OK. What about vortex of doom, on an Epistolarius with Gate and… maybe plasma tacticals?

Unlike the rulebook version the one in the codex has only warp charge 1 (I assume), so why not take advantage of it?

 

And no idea about the rule question above?

[Captain Idaho]

Ah, ok, my fault.

But you still have either LOS and roll for a regular marine or the IC’s 2+/3++. You probably will use the IC’s 2+ until he loses one wound and then begin with LOS with the exception of AP 3 or also AP 2 hits the IC have a save against and PA-Marines don’t. Right?

Btw, one rule question:

When saving against one salve from a single enemy unit, can you roll saves one after one and in the middle decide to begin with testing for LOS (i.e.. after the IC lost one of two wounds)?

 

Answer to your first question: Using LOS! is a best done on a case by case basis, using your best judgement rather than a set formula. In this case, generally yes use a 2+ or invulnerable save to protect weaker models until you are down to a single wound, but if you need to keep your Librarian in one piece and the loss of a few models is acceptable to keep him with 2 wounds (could be early game and there are multiple units about to fire next), don't be afraid to sacrifce the odd model.

 

But yes, the Librarain can take he hits for a while!

 

Answering your second question: As stipulated in the recent FAQ, yes you roll wounds against independent characters individually instead of all at once. Although slower, it's fairer.

[ShadowHaunt]

I confess, I fail to see why Null Zone is so popular. It seems far too situational, to me. It forces the enemy to reroll successful invul saves, but not armor or cover saves. A great many units don't have inv saves at all, and even those who do, with the exception of demons, will have an equal or better armor save. So, to take advantage of it, you pretty much need AP2 weaponry, which is something that doesn't come in bulk. It almost requires a dedicated plasma squad - meaning Command Squad or Honour Guard, since nobody else can take more than 2 plasma guns in a unit - to reap the benefits. What is it I'm missing about this power?

 

Gate is perhaps the best single power in the codex list. I usually take Force Dome, though I have gotten great use out of Might of the Ancients, against 'nids, now and again. Lately, I've been taking Telekinesis, however. Objuration Mechanicum is like an upgraded version of Curse of the Machine Spirit. Telekine Dome is Force Dome with a reflect ability added in, and Gate is right there, as well.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Ha, seems Gate and Null Zone are the winners so far. Certainly my choice. Anyone else care to weigh in?

I cannot upvote this enough.

 

Null Zone is the single best way to defeat all Daemons, all Terminators, Stormshield Wolf Cavalry, Necron Wraiths, Ork Cybork Nobz, GK/BA/SW Librarians casting Forewarning, Eldar casting Fortune, DE Wyches/Shadowfield/Lilith, the Avatar/DreadKnight/Swarmlord/Zoanthropes, and anything sitting on top of the Skyshield Pad with fins-up (ie nasty IG firebases for starters).

 

Gate is the single-best strategic mobility power available. Other powers may kill things, but this power allows for Turn 5 dropping onto Objectives to contest or secure. Simply excellent, even if you don't use until Turn 5.

[Captain Idaho]

I confess, I fail to see why Null Zone is so popular. It seems far too situational, to me. It forces the enemy to reroll successful invul saves, but not armor or cover saves. A great many units don't have inv saves at all, and even those who do, with the exception of demons, will have an equal or better armor save. So, to take advantage of it, you pretty much need AP2 weaponry, which is something that doesn't come in bulk. It almost requires a dedicated plasma squad - meaning Command Squad or Honour Guard, since nobody else can take more than 2 plasma guns in a unit - to reap the benefits. What is it I'm missing about this power?

 

Gate is perhaps the best single power in the codex list. I usually take Force Dome, though I have gotten great use out of Might of the Ancients, against 'nids, now and again. Lately, I've been taking Telekinesis, however. Objuration Mechanicum is like an upgraded version of Curse of the Machine Spirit. Telekine Dome is Force Dome with a reflect ability added in, and Gate is right there, as well.

 

Well, firstly, you are right Null Zone is not going to do much against rank and file opponents, but it does enable Space Marines to smash elite choices. Space Marines are fairly elite themselves and can handle themselves against rather mundane opponents, with elite troops giving problems to our infantry, so Null Zone can even the odds against those elites troops.

 

I do think you are right about Gate being very good, but I don't know many people with access to our Codex powers who'll use the Telekinesis table. It's got many of the same powers (minor amendments) but lacks the capacity to choose what you need strategically.

[Raphiel]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned The Avenger yet. A S5 AP3 template will ruin many MEQ's day and compliments one of the best squads to accompany a Librarian, a Sternguard squad.

 

I mostly run my librarian with Null Zone, for all the previously mentioned reasons, and The Avenger.

 

I tried Gate, and while I agree it is a good power, I just don't like using it that much since there is a risk of losing a model while performing the psychic power (when rolling doubles). Call me crazy, but I like to keep the chances of something happening to my Sternguard (my usual escort to my Librarian) to a minimum.

[DarkGuard]

Forgive me for chiming in so late. I've had a lot going on and so something that would involve me this much had to wait until things had settled a bit. So here's my views.

 

Ha, seems Gate and Null Zone are the winners so far. Certainly my choice. Anyone else care to weigh in?

 

2/3rd right Idaho IMO. :D

 

For me, the two winners are Null Zone and Gate/Avenger. Let me explain.

 

Null Zone, nuff said, moving on..... Oh OK. Null Zone is simply the best power we have bar smaller games. At most points values of 1500+, you'll likely to see lots of units with invulnerable saves. Terminators is the most likely, but you've also got Orks cybork boys, Lych Guard, Seer Councils, Crisis Suits etc. These units can be hard to take out if you're not prepared. Null Zone is part of that preparation, always take it.

 

Onto to Gate/Avenger. I'm still undecided. Whenever I take Gate I don't use, and sometimes wish I had Avenger. Yet the tactical implications of Gate are too great to not consider it. If you're running a mech list you could easily get away with Avenger. Clever use of cover and saturation will get you to your objective, where Avenger means the Libby can do some damage of his own. However, in hybrid lists and foot lists you'll probably want Gate, as either primary methods of transport or backup.

 

I wouldn't take anything else though. Force Dome is too small and inconsistent, if it were a 6" radius etc I'd probably take it though. Might is all right and handy if your Libby is in a Raider, but force axes make it a little redundant now. Vortex is only viable with TDA and maybe bikes, and has a high risk. Quickening isn't great, Smite is awful, and Curse of the Machine Spirit actually got decent now with the changes to vehicle damage.

 

I was going to do a Libby 101 before 6th Ed, ranking the powers in tiers, but with 6th Ed decided not to. Here's the tiers I would have used though.

 

Tier 1: Null Zone

Tier 2: Gate, Avenger, Vortex (TDA)

Tier 3: Might, Curse of the Machine Spirit, Vortex (bike)

Tier 4: Force Dome

Tier 5: Smite, Vortex (vanilla), Quickening

 

I think that's all of them.

 

In regards to BGB powers, I like the C:SM powers because I don't mind swapping Gate or Avenger out, or swapping Null Zone out if it's not needed. This then opens up the possibility of Enfeeble, Endurance, Psychic Shriek, Puppet Master etc. I'd only take from Biomancy and Telepathy, Biomancy has the better powers IMO, but is less consistent than Telepathy, which is more consistent due to only have 4 WC1 powers, 3/4 of those powers are still pretty good for Marines. It's a nice option to have, that's all.

 

As for the Epistolary, I think the way WCs work and the BGB powers work he is a little more worth it. For example you can access to Invisibility or Hallucination which are nice powers, though not as needed for Marines as some other powers IMO. If we had access to Divination I'd say that that and TDA/SS all the time. Sure he'd be 190pts, but he'd be durable in the open, which is where you need to be to cast the awesome Divination powers. But as we don't have access to them, and as the others powers aren't as great, I'd only take Epistolary as a points filler, and you could probably take better things with those points as well.

[Kua]

Sounds reasonable. But what is the connection between Vortex and the TDA? Only because of the SS 3++? Do you expect your Libby to cast Vortex that often during the game that with his Ld10 the chance of miscasting is that important?

And in this case, how does the bike help at all?

[Mannyu78]

Sounds reasonable. But what is the connection between Vortex and the TDA? Only because of the SS 3++? Do you expect your Libby to cast Vortex that often during the game that with his Ld10 the chance of miscasting is that important?

And in this case, how does the bike help at all?

Terminators and Bikes are Relentless. Allowing you to cast Vortex on the move.

[DarkGuard]

Sounds reasonable. But what is the connection between Vortex and the TDA? Only because of the SS 3++? Do you expect your Libby to cast Vortex that often during the game that with his Ld10 the chance of miscasting is that important?

And in this case, how does the bike help at all?

 

TDA and bikes are relentless, so you can cast it on the move compared to PA which can't (which is why that's Tier 5). However, TDA has better protection, so yes, it is only because of the SS 3++. If you screw up with the bike Libby you've lost him. With the TDA one you've got a decent chance of keeping him. Not a massive difference then, but enough to separate them IMO.