A question regarding legion organization.

[warp spider]

So, after sitting down and reading the first part of the new forge world HH book, I have come to the page that describes the legion organization (Page 30-31). This breaks the legion down into 'chapters', and each chapter contains up to two battalions, each containing 8+ companies.

 

My question regards the lunar wolves/sons of horus. From the BL novels, we seem to see that the main organisational unit for the legion is company: this however seems larger than described in FW's book; This suggests that the LW companies were much larger than the companies we see described in the fw book. In addition, if Loken was a company commander, there would be so many companies that it would be truly ridiculous that he would be accepted into the Mounival, seeing as he would have had at least battalion command and chapter command above him.

 

I get the impression that what the lunar wolves describe as 'companies' are equivalent to 'chapters' in other legions. This means that the Loken is only competing with 13+ other captains in the legion for the Mounival position, and it also accounts for the sheer size of the companies. Th only issue is that this makes troopers like Nero Vipus (who I believe held the rank of Sargent), significantly lower in rank compared to Loken, but I don't see this as to much of a problem.

 

What do you guys think? The diagram in the fw book might be to generic to apply to any legion, and black library and fw might not have communicated, but I think that there are some parallels that can be drawn.

[Don the Oiler]

Legion organization in the BL books changes with each author, just consider this another retcon. It won't be the last.

If it makes you feel better, Nero could be something like a lieutenant (there were lieutenants back in Rogue Trader if i remember correctly) in your "adapted" version.

[Apothecary Daxam]

The thing is, certain Legions did not adhere to the Chapter Scheme. The Luna Wolves never made use of Chapters, preferring their forces to be divided into Companies. And Loken is Captain of Tenth Company, meaning he commands one of the more elite wargroups. In a legion of a hundred plus Companies, the higher and closer you are to the Primarch, the more likely you'll be taken into a circle of power. And remember, Loken is specifically stated to have "Chased Abbadon with his glories" meaning his honour rolls and victories had to be pretty spectacular to rival a First Captains.

 

The Luna Wolves apparently operated with larger company forces indeed. The Forge World book gives the 'normal' legion Organisation. But none of the legions really adhered to it. Guilleman's was vastly larger, and Magnus' even smaller. Russ crafted his Great Companies and Lorgar used Chapters. All Legions were crafted to the will and whim of their Primarch. Though Forge World does offer a good base to work out Legion size forces and such.

[Captain Semper]

I think the "Chapter" is the generic term to describe a unit of 1,000 warriors - the building block of any given Legion. Now each Legion has its own nomenclature and the term "Chapter" might be replaced by other terms such as Great Company or other Legion-specific names. It could be the case that Lunar Wolves were using the more egalitarian term "Company" in place of the "Chapter" which of course means that the "Companies" as in units of 100 warriors should be renamed to avoid confusion to something also Legion-specific - like "Bands" or something... Although in the BL novels they are "Squads". In fact they use 40k Chapter organization chart instead of Legion because frankly who knew about battalions until ermm, yesterday? ^_^

 

I do not have the book yet (but the order is placed :blink: ) so I cannot help further - however I'd say the FW is the first time a serious attempt to look into the organization of a Legion is put forward - and now BL writers will have to abide by that. So attribute every inconistency to the age difference of the two documents and expect future BL books to comply with the FW books.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

The HH book does state that their listed TO&E is an ideal, it's how they where organised during the unity campaighns and as they first set into the crusade.

 

The only legions that kept this ideal organisation where the Imperial Fists and Ultramarines. Mortarion, for example, got rid of most of his jetbike/jump pack/bike units and reorganised into 7 great comapnies made mainly of tactical squads.

 

As for Loken, the mournival was NEVER about rank, they where chosen for individual merit not their position in the legion.

[A D-B]

I do not have the book yet (but the order is placed :devil: ) so I cannot help further - however I'd say the FW is the first time a serious attempt to look into the organization of a Legion is put forward - and now BL writers will have to abide by that. So attribute every inconistency to the age difference of the two documents and expect future BL books to comply with the FW books.

 

You sound very sure that this is the way it's been arranged.

 

As much as I love Forge World, publically and vociferously, it's really not a matter of FW doing something and everyone else just suddenly having to comply. It was never arranged the way you're saying, and I doubt anyone will be suddenly retconning their vague mentions and suggestions of Legion organisaiton based on that chart. That chart's not even new to us; we've had it for a long time - it's always down to individual authors to choose how a Legion is organised. Argel Tal's Chapter of Consecrated Iron, f'rex, is "a few thousand Marines". I decided that a few days ago, in-line with how the Word Bearers organise their Chapters/Hosts, in groups of between several hundred and several thousand warriors.

 

There's no challenge for authority, and no sudden pressure to Do What It Says In The Rulebooks. The reason FW is following several years behind the advancing story arc is because Black Library is still leading the charge, as it were.

 

The flip side to that coin is that if something is done as a mini, that tends to become the authority on the subject.

 

FW does have one advantage that the series lacks, though. With all the will in the world, one writer (FW) will have way, way fewer continuity issues than ten writers, no matter how skilled fact-checkers might be.

 

Although in the BL novels they are "Squads".

 

Night Lords use Claws.

 

In fact they use 40k Chapter organization chart instead of Legion because frankly who knew about battalions until ermm, yesterday? :D

 

It was in older lore, too.

 

As Kezef said, the chart there is a Great Crusade ideal - pre-primarchs, pre-homeworld traditions, pre-galaxy-spanning war that takes a Legion and breaks it up into several hundred fleets that rarely see each other again.

[A D-B]

Mind you. Miiiiind you, saying all that, I have a personal attitude to Forge World (and, more specifically, to Alan Bligh, Forge World's lead writer).

 

If he says something, my response isn't to lock horns with him Triceratops-style and bash our reinforced cranial plates together until the challenge to authority is sorted out. My response is usually "...that's freaking awesome" (except with more swearing) and "...will there be a model of it?"

[TennisBall]

The only legions that kept this ideal organisation where the Imperial Fists and Ultramarines. Mortarion, for example, got rid of most of his jetbike/jump pack/bike units and reorganised into 7 great comapnies made mainly of tactical squads.

 

That will have to change surely with the new firmed numbers for the legions. Or at least a Great Company will have to represent more than a 1000, more than 10,000 probably. If they do only number 70,000 then they'd be smaller than the Thousand Sons who were what, 80,000?

 

The Dark Angels kept that organization too didn't they? They certainly had chapters of 1000.

[Lorenzen]

each great company was meant to have 70,000 marines bringing the total to 490,000 marines.

 

this was mortarions vision, but in reality they had around 95,000 marines at the time of istvaan 3 due to their incredibly high attrition rate.

 

sons of horus has 130-170,000 and were in the top 1/4 in terms of legion size, world eaters and emperors children both had 110,000. (emp kids came out of istvaan 3 with 50,000 less than half their numbers)

[Olis]

each great company was meant to have 70,000 marines bringing the total to 490,000 marines.

 

this was mortarions vision, but in reality they had around 95,000 marines at the time of istvaan 3 due to their incredibly high attrition rate.

 

sons of horus has 130-170,000 and were in the top 1/4 in terms of legion size, world eaters and emperors children both had 110,000. (emp kids came out of istvaan 3 with 50,000 less than half their numbers)

 

Is this in Betrayal? If not, what's your source? ^_^

[Lorenzen]

yup its in betrayal. each legion has a "war disposition" bit, sons of horus states that other dudes were off in other places so horus didnt have all his chums present, but still mentions their legions overall strength

[Don the Oiler]

I also have hard time imagining any Space Wolf Marine being addressed as "Praetor", no matter what the new FW book says.

[Olis]

yup its in betrayal. each legion has a "war disposition" bit, sons of horus states that other dudes were off in other places so horus didnt have all his chums present, but still mentions their legions overall strength

 

Fair enough. I think I need to save a little bit harder to get this book. It sounds like a goldmine of information that would come in handy *COUGH*Guilliman Heresy!*COUGH*. :(

[Phoebus]

each great company was meant to have 70,000 marines bringing the total to 490,000 marines.

 

this was mortarions vision, but in reality they had around 95,000 marines at the time of istvaan 3 due to their incredibly high attrition rate.

 

sons of horus has 130-170,000 and were in the top 1/4 in terms of legion size, world eaters and emperors children both had 110,000. (emp kids came out of istvaan 3 with 50,000 less than half their numbers)

Good God. :P

[Kol Saresk]

I also have hard time imagining any Space Wolf Marine being addressed as "Praetor", no matter what the new FW book says.

Aren't the Space Wolves organized into "Packs" at the squad level? And aren't their Captains called Wolf Lords? And then you get the Claws in the Night Lords. Along with the Atrementar, the Pheonix Guard, the Justaerin, Mortarion's two bodyguards, the Tetrarchs, and the other "special" units. I'd almost have to agree that this organization table everyone is talking about would almost have to be pre-Primarch.

[Phoebus]

Personally, I don't think it's too much to ask to see charts depicting the organizations of the Legions as they were in this phase of the war. After all, the pre-Primarch chart is fun as a footnote of the past, but does it mean anything by the time those four specific Legions make it to Isstvan III?

 

Mind you, my copy has not arrived yet... and those charts may well be in there. :)

[Kol Saresk]

Oh I don't disagree. Pre-Primarch Legion Organization would be a fun thing to know just for the heck of it. But since there are no "Pre-Primarch" Legions during the time of the Heresy, it would be better to know the "current" organization of the previous one as that would be the one that the FoC would be based off of and since BL has already laid the groundwork for it, to me it would be cheaper, and smarter, to use what is already there and actually expand on it instead of trying to make it different.

[mysteriousmaskedmystery]

i would guess that the "standard" organization is how they were organized at their founding, but then over time they each grew into unique organizations. now, the names or ranks of marines who fulfill the same role is trivial really, and i remember seeing a screen cap of that chart that stated that different legions had different names for chapters, such as great companies. so, just because a space wolf praetor is called a Jarl doesn't change what he does really. the same is true of C:SM. a captain is a generic term for a commander of a company of marines, and the FW badab books make a point of showing how many of the involved chapters had different names for their captains, sergeants and chaplains due their own unique traditions. the same was true of the original legions.

 

i would like to know who lead the legions before the primarchs actually.

[Kol Saresk]

I imagine that it would have been the Chapter Master of each Chapter and either it functioned as a council type organization or each Expedition was left to its own devices until the Primarch was found.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

I also have hard time imagining any Space Wolf Marine being addressed as "Praetor", no matter what the new FW book says.

 

The Praetor description does say that the rank goes by other titles such as khan and Wolf Lord

[Inquisitor Engel]

Reading "Prince of Crows" it seems like certain Company Commanders also have priority over other company Captains. Sevatar mentions his sub-captains and discusses the captains under the rest of the Kyroptera Captain's control too. He then goes on to talk about forming "Great Companies" en route to terrorize the Imperium/fight at Terra but I got the impression that might be an ad hoc formation.

[mysteriousmaskedmystery]

the original trilogy makes mention of "line-captains" several times and makes them seem like lesser officers. saul tarvitz is mentioned as one, as is loken. they aren't thought to be inspired enough to rise above company command to anything higher.

[Kol Saresk]

In the original trilogy, the Company was there in place of the Chapter and strongly gave the impression that a Chapter was simply a detatchment of the Legion that operated in a different Expedition than the Primarch's. But by "line captain" I think they meant Astartes who could do the job of a captain and command a sizeable detatchment of other Astartes but possessed no ambition to go any higher in rank. In fact, the only reason they got promoted was not because they wanted it, but because they had the skills and just happened to be noticed by the right people. Take Loken for example. Captain of the Tenth Company IIRC. He led just that one Company in an assault on the Whisperhead Mountains. IIRC, the descriptions read that there were several thousand Marines, some of which were even wearing Terminator armor.

[mysteriousmaskedmystery]

but loken wasn't one, he proved despite abaddon's belief that he was "only" a line captain. that's my point, it was sort of a disparaging term in that it meant you weren't good enough to go higher.

 

but it could also now be taken mean the difference between a company commander and the leader of a chapter or great company if we are going to take FW's legion organization as standard.

[Kol Saresk]

That's a pretty big "if".