A question regarding legion organization.

[Oir]

but loken wasn't one, he proved despite abaddon's belief that he was "only" a line captain. that's my point, it was sort of a disparaging term in that it meant you weren't good enough to go higher.

 

but it could also now be taken mean the difference between a company commander and the leader of a chapter or great company if we are going to take FW's legion organization as standard.

 

Wasn't the 'only a line captain' quote from Eidolon in regards to Saul Tarvitz?

 

I'm pretty sure Loken was Captain of a Grand Company (or equivalent)

 

From my understanding a Line Captain was the equivalent of a high level NCO

[No Foes Remain]

That's a pretty big "if".

This is Warhammer, when isn't there a big-ass 'if'?

[Kol Saresk]

The "line captain" quote was about Tarvitz. But if you went by how the Dramatis Persona was set up in the first three, my mistake, first four books, it gives the impression that the Legions were divided into Companies. Not Chapters, not Grand Companies, just rather large Companies. The only Captain you see who was not in charge of a Company was Ekaddon of Catulan Reaver Squad of the First Company. The only Chapter Master you see for the first few books is Raldoron of the Blood Angels. And all that seems to be is a different name for Abaddon's rank of First Captain. Same for Typhus. The only part it winds up getting confusing on is in Fulgrim because there are two Lord Commanders who rank above the First Captain. And that's the first time you see someone rank above First Captain in the series.

 

So basically, I believe it is going to be a personal choice in whether we follow BL's organization or Forgeworld's. I'm following BL's.

[Nova_Dew]

In Fear To Tread the Rank of Chapter Master is said to be new to the Blood Angels, not only is Raldoron not long promoted to it at the council of Nikiea (sp) but he is also the first Blood Angel to hold the rank iirc.

[jamsight]

I think flight of the Einstein is a good read for legion organisation I sure it says the Deathguard were only 7 companies of about 1000 marines in each (I am going off the top of my head so I am most likely wrong) with the 1st and 7th captain having the honour of being called 'battle captain' I also read some where else that when they started writing the heresy series they had to increase the size of the legions by quite abit because otherwise they wouldn't have been able to make all the second founding chapter. it's also meant to be obscure so that there are good threads like this to stimulate debate.

 

but it seems simple enough for me, there are companies these are about the size of a chapter now. two companies make a battalion and two battalions make a chapter. ranks and the like differ so much from legion to legion that it's hard to say what was what for example you have a load of chapter masters in the Ultramarine Know no Fear but only one in Fear to tread. and the rank seem to be all together absent in the Space wolves with the Wolf lords being in charge of the Great companies and they only seem to report too Russ I am sure they had other ranks lower but they aren't mentioned at all only the wolf and rune priest.

[Oir]

The "line captain" quote was about Tarvitz. But if you went by how the Dramatis Persona was set up in the first three, my mistake, first four books, it gives the impression that the Legions were divided into Companies. Not Chapters, not Grand Companies, just rather large Companies. The only Captain you see who was not in charge of a Company was Ekaddon of Catulan Reaver Squad of the First Company. The only Chapter Master you see for the first few books is Raldoron of the Blood Angels. And all that seems to be is a different name for Abaddon's rank of First Captain. Same for Typhus. The only part it winds up getting confusing on is in Fulgrim because there are two Lord Commanders who rank above the First Captain. And that's the first time you see someone rank above First Captain in the series.

 

So basically, I believe it is going to be a personal choice in whether we follow BL's organization or Forgeworld's. I'm following BL's.

 

I used the term 'Grand Company' to differentiate from the '100 Battle Brothers' implication that can result when the term Company is used.

 

Overall though, unless my mind changes when I finally get my hands on my copy of the book, I think the best approach is to assume that the book talks about 'default' terms and organisations, and that the Legions picked and chose what they felt worked and what didn't, based on their specific culture and their Primarch's preferences.

[Kol Saresk]

Gotcha

[Brother Captain Kezef]

No TO&E ever written, be it fact or fiction, should be taken as anything more than an ideal, administrative concept.

 

In WW2 nobody every had their full complement according to their TO&E and even today, modern regiments/battalions/divisions pick up and lose units from and to other administrative units. It's how militaries are run, TO&E's are there to keep the admin staff happy and historians in a job.

 

People shouldn't make too much of the TO&E listed in the FW book, it's a good baseline but only a baseline. Even if a legion did follow this to the letter, casualties and battlefield circumstance would quickly change the organisation as holes in squads have to be filled and specific battlegroups are formed for individual roles and tactical objectives.

 

After just one campaighn a legion would look very different from what it's supposed to be and would take time to refit and re-equip to get back to anything resembling an ideal formation. The great crusade seemed very unrelenting and seldom where the legions out of combat long enough to make these changes. The one that stands out seems to be the Ultramarines and it's fairly clear they and maybe the Fists where the only ones who kept to this pre-crusade ideal.

[DarKnight]

The "line captain" remark towards Tarvitz wasn't an actual rank, but just a criticism of Tarvitz by Eidolon. A Legion of sufficient size would have so many Astartes, that even a captain rank would lose the prestige that it would normally have. You wouldn't be the head of a Crusade Fleet, or a confidant of the Primarch, just a leader of the men under you and the respect of the title of captain. That's it.

[TennisBall]

No TO&E ever written, be it fact or fiction, should be taken as anything more than an ideal, administrative concept.

True, but what I would like, is to have a general sense of how things are structured. That is squads being part of a company, who tend to be led by captains, then companies are grouped into Battalions, and so forth. It helps to have a basic understanding of the command structure to understand how a legion worked.

Unlike in Know No Fear where the legion organization mentions 1000 strong companies, 10 strong squads and nothing in between.

[mysteriousmaskedmystery]

i could almost swear the "line-captain" remark was used about loken as well. i remember it being used several times. it was one of the themes the three authors seemed to be sharing, like the humors.

 

more to the actual point of the thread. the LW after Horus took over seemed much more informally organized in that everything seemed to flow straight from him. the mournival is a good example of this. it's informal and really just there to serve him in a way that would be more difficult to accomplish in a true military organization. that could explain the seeming lack of organization above company? or maybe each expedition fleet was a 'great company?' so as first captain abaddon was the nominal commander of the force, but of course Horus was in charge since he was with that fleet. while other expeditions would have had a senior "captain" in charge then.