tvih Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 I just find it strange no one seems to have this issue. Or at least no one ever seems to talk about it. The issue I'm talking about is the surfaces of larger, even areas on vehicle parts being far from an even, uniform surface. It's plain to see when you look at the unpainted part. The problem is that it's extremely evident when painted, as well. Here's a case in point, the first Rhino I did about a month ago. This is after one coat of spray: http://www.tvih.net/stuff/wh40k/rhino-undercoat1.jpg The top looks pretty terrible! And to make it smooth and even, I had to paint about half a dozen more layers. On parts with detail, like the side doors, that already starts to mess up detail pretty badly. Not to mention using up a ridiculous amount of paint. I estimate I spent half a can on that Rhino. Now that I started to paint up a Land Raider Crusader, the same issue's there for the third time. And since it's so large, I reckon at this rate I'll use up an entire can with the damn thing. Not exactly cost-effective! So, why doesn't anyone else seem to have an issue with this? B) And most importantly, how to work around it without excessive paint usage? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262137-the-non-uniform-surfaces-on-vehicles/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Mek LugNutz Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Firzt of oll, whadiya mean by uneven. Do you meen bent, rounded, the paynt won't stay on... If yur uzin' haff a kan of paint on it, I'd tink' the surface wood be messed up any'how. Yer better explain the problem better, becauze I don't tink dis problem iz as kommon as you may tink it is. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262137-the-non-uniform-surfaces-on-vehicles/#findComment-3192701 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvih Posted October 1, 2012 Author Share Posted October 1, 2012 Well you can see the problem clear as day on that picture. And you can see it when you look at an unpainted part. The surface has sort of "figures" on it. No clearer explanation should really be necessary. And I know the same thing is in every model, because for example my two Rhino hulls have the same exact lack of uniformity. So, the parts aren't damage, bent, whatever. The surface just isn't uniform. But why others don't seem to have a problem with this when painting is the question. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262137-the-non-uniform-surfaces-on-vehicles/#findComment-3192728 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nym468 Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Are you taking about the small swirl near the top hatch and one near the commander's hatch? If so they look like fingerprints. Are you wearing gloves when you hold it to spray hard to reach areas. Are you using the spray paint as a primer or as a basecoat? Other than what I mentioned before can you provide a better location for the uneven surfaces? (ie. multiple pictures with the area circled) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262137-the-non-uniform-surfaces-on-vehicles/#findComment-3192741 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvih Posted October 1, 2012 Author Share Posted October 1, 2012 The entire top of the tank in the pic is quite obvious. The top hatches for example. And the part to the right of the top hatch on the picture. You can't tell me it looks anywhere near uniform/even throughout the entire surface. It's not fingerprints or anything, the "effect" is there fresh from the sprues. Painted and unpainted, it's the same spots. If you try with your fingers the different-looking areas don't feel any different because the difference is so small in that way, but unfortunately that doesn't prevent it from being visible even when painted. As a result of this contrary to my predispositions I've found I much prefer painting infantry, because there's no issue such as this with them because there are no large flat surfaces. Especially terminators are nice, since they don't get the nasty seams between torso front and rear either. Anyway I guess if I need to make my case further to show what I mean, I can take a pic of an unpainted part, which shows the surface differences. But if you have any unpainted vehicle parts with even surfaces, you can easily see it from almost any of them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262137-the-non-uniform-surfaces-on-vehicles/#findComment-3192762 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvih Posted October 1, 2012 Author Share Posted October 1, 2012 Bleh, not quite as visible in a picture, but you can still see some of the more obvious areas. And of course the entire bottom plate is full of the issue and in a more drastic way - but luckily it's the one part where it doesn't matter in the slightest, not being visible and all. But the same thing happens in the other parts too, I only circled the ones that are easily evident even in the photo. But make no mistake, it's hardly limited to those, and could just about draw a red circle around the entire side of the LR... http://www.tvih.net/stuff/wh40k/plastic-surface1.jpg http://www.tvih.net/stuff/wh40k/plastic-surface2.jpg Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262137-the-non-uniform-surfaces-on-vehicles/#findComment-3192790 Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterdyne Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Quite common in plastic kits. What you're seeing is imperfections in the plastic mix and/or mould wear (more or less mould lube, or imperfectly machined moulds). You see this even more in resin kits. The solution is to lightly sand before priming. Sometimes it's best to use a sandable primer (Tamiya is excellent, or an automotive primer) and sand that too, before repriming when it's all nice and smooth. Usually, though, it's possible to simply carry on painting, and as long as you're not after a very clean finish, your paintjob will hide the imperfections. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262137-the-non-uniform-surfaces-on-vehicles/#findComment-3192818 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Mek LugNutz Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Enligh'ten me pleeze. How woud dis effect da spray koat, and why 'alf of a kan? The picturze only make it loo'rk slightly discolored. If you'er referrin to 'dose lines, those'er just mould lines n' ruffness, verry kommon. You just need to file em' down when you first do any werk on da moddel. p.s. you' may want to kut dem finger nailz. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262137-the-non-uniform-surfaces-on-vehicles/#findComment-3193134 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacinda Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Are you washing the pieces before you paint? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262137-the-non-uniform-surfaces-on-vehicles/#findComment-3193142 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvih Posted October 2, 2012 Author Share Posted October 2, 2012 Quite common in plastic kits. What you're seeing is imperfections in the plastic mix and/or mould wear (more or less mould lube, or imperfectly machined moulds). You see this even more in resin kits. The solution is to lightly sand before priming. Sometimes it's best to use a sandable primer (Tamiya is excellent, or an automotive primer) and sand that too, before repriming when it's all nice and smooth. Usually, though, it's possible to simply carry on painting, and as long as you're not after a very clean finish, your paintjob will hide the imperfections. Yes, I know it's from the moulding process (that's why the imperfections are indentical between different copies of the same sprues), but that part about it being so visible after painting yet no one ever even mentioning it - or as we can see here, apparently not even noticing it even when it's plain to see - is what has me mind-boggled. I did think about sanding, but it it's a real pain in the butt, plus the section of the "upper deck" that I did sand didn't really show any difference. So I'd have to sand it a lot, at which point I don't trust it to be even either. I do my models as much or probably even more as scale models compared to gaming pieces, within my limited skill set anyway. So obvious "flaws" in the basecoat itself are... not very nice. I've been thinking of getting some automotive primer for the vehicles indeed, since they only cost half of what the GW spray does. Enligh'ten me pleeze. How woud dis effect da spray koat, and why 'alf of a kan? The picturze only make it loo'rk slightly discolored. If you'er referrin to 'dose lines, those'er just mould lines n' ruffness, verry kommon. You just need to file em' down when you first do any werk on da moddel. Because the "discoloration" is actually probably a slightly different surface on the plastic, therefore it looks different even when painted, and needs "half a can" to cover it to the point where it doesn't show. Are you washing the pieces before you paint? Sometimes yes, sometimes no, but it has no bearing on this particular issue. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262137-the-non-uniform-surfaces-on-vehicles/#findComment-3193158 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hezrou Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 I always prime my models now with a primer. then i will use gw sprays. I currently use a automotive grey rattle can spray but will be investing in some vallejo grey primer. I had noticed these imperfections. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262137-the-non-uniform-surfaces-on-vehicles/#findComment-3193185 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorenzen Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 those imperfections will essentially always show through unless you lightly sand them out. in most cases they arent particularly visible (although black shows them up more than other colours) outside of the hobby im involved in quality control for the paint on cars.. regardless of primer chances are you will see something through with black. what will tend to mask it however is a decent application of satin/matte varnish (surfacer) try it on something scrap (or the bottom of that land raider, it isnt a magical cure all, but it should at least mask the issue a bit better and is one of the reasons (the other being they dont care) that games who protect their models from prolonged touching dont notice. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262137-the-non-uniform-surfaces-on-vehicles/#findComment-3193209 Share on other sites More sharing options...
kataklysm Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 I have been an armor modeller for 10+ years and have experienced this in many different ranges of armor kits. When I switched over to gw a few years back I was actually suprised that alot of their kits did not have the "mould warp" that afflicts alot of different armour kit makers. Recently however I have seen the same tell-tale "swirls" that shows that games workshop is not invulnerable to the march of time. (they might sue me for that...) The cause: The moulds are getting on in years. This means that after hundreds of thousands of usages, the alluminum, plastic injection moulds are getting tired and losing definition in high wear areas (areas that are usually flat, curved, and narrower or skinny pieces). The cure: Aside from travelling to GW's production facility and demanding that new moulds be made, the solution is in model preparation. Now this gets a little annoying to most model gamers because they do not usually spend the time in preparation as an average armor enthusiast. Im not saying that they are amateurish or lazy, It is a simple truth that to a 13 year old kid, assembling and prepping that shiny new land raider is more akin to a frenzy of superglue and flying plastic shavings. The steps: 1.) Always wash your sprues. Fact is that those beautiful new sprues of plastic goodness are actually filthy dirtly little whor.... nevermind. The sprues straight out of the box are actually covered in oils and dust/dirt. The easiest way to remove that is some warm soapy water (dawn dish soap is great) and an old toothbrush. (electric is awesome too) You wash them while they are still on the sprues because it is too damn easy to lose an antenna or crewmembers head if you have already removed them from the sprue 2.) Sand...it gets everywhere. Sanding is the next and IMO most important part. Now you say that you sanded the pieces in the pictures there. Not to be an a$$hole but no... you didn't, And I can tell you why you didnt. Because the swirls are still there. The proper way to sand these annoying little marks away is with a two - three stage sanding process starting with a paper around 800 grit and ending up somewhere around 1000 grit. These are about the right abrasive grades you want for modelling purposes. They are obtainable at most automotive shops. Because they are used for? Thats right, cars. The easiest way to sand theses little tanks is by cutting an inch wide x Two inch long strip of the paper and folding it over a thin, and level piece of plastic or wood. then you can sand away. 3.) Prime and...more sanding?! Now I can go into detail about different primers and grades of this and that and how your whole modelling life will be changed by tamiya or vallejo or mr primer... but I wont. Simple fact is that you are comfortable with GW's rattle can of black primer and then that is what you should use. But here is the truth of it all... Primers are meant to be sanded. Unless you are repainting some old patio furniture, you are going to want to sand any prime job. Ok so why sand an already primed model? looks good doesnt it?! no.. not really. look carefully, and see all the imperfections that are now visible thanks to the coat of primer, little bumps, nicks in your original clean up with the razor. All these problems can be resolved with a simple sand job. Those annoying swirls that you hate so much (if they are even still visible after the first round of sanding) are easilly removed now, because you have a top layer of primer to sand them even with. There is your advice. Sorry about writing a book but modelling is a passion is it not? -Kata Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262137-the-non-uniform-surfaces-on-vehicles/#findComment-3193308 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvih Posted October 2, 2012 Author Share Posted October 2, 2012 Now you say that you sanded the pieces in the pictures there. Not to be an a$$hole but no... you didn't, And I can tell you why you didnt. Because the swirls are still there. I said I sanded a part of the top hull, which isn't even in the pictures :huh: The real problem with sanding, though, comes with parts like the side doors which - the ones from the BT upgrade sprue - are full of detail and thus tricky to sand from the flat parts, even when folding the sand paper around something small. Still, I suppose it seems like I have no choice but to sand like a madman. Never had the problem with the few 1:35 kits I built in my youth - I suppose I got lucky with those. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262137-the-non-uniform-surfaces-on-vehicles/#findComment-3193449 Share on other sites More sharing options...
kataklysm Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Check this out http://www.florymodels.co.uk/skinny-sticks/ great for those wacky corners. Great on resin parts before priming. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262137-the-non-uniform-surfaces-on-vehicles/#findComment-3193455 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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