crimson fist

[mactire]

Just finished the first story in Shadows of Treachery, really liked it but have a couple of questions. Not a crimson or imperial fist collector and dont really know too much about their background so thought someone here might be able to help ;)

 

Why was perturabo so eager to kill sigismund, why did he seem to hate him so much ?

 

What was the significance of the AC terminator (to lazy to look up his name) opening his eyes as perturabo left ?

 

I presume that the fleet appeared from the warp at Ultramar, which seems to be the main rally point for the loyalists, why does the astronomican seem to be clearing a way to RG and does it have anything to do with angron and lorgars mission to the system in Butchers Nails ???

 

Thanks in advance :)

[DarkChaplain]

Sigismund was Dorn's favorite, First Captain of the Imperial Fists, and he had a reputation to go with him - of course Perturabo would know about the guy who sparred with the World Eaters, adapted their way of chaining weapons to their wrists, and the only dude to ever beat Sevatar of the Night Lords in a duel, and would love to squash him, sending a very clear message to his eternal rival Primarch

 

No clue about the eye-opener at the end. I hope that John French is writing another story to expand upon that part, though.

 

While it might be that all ways lead to Ultramar these days, I do no think the Crimson Fist ended up in Guilliman's realm. The scene appeared more like they arrived after Dorn's fortification of the Imperial Palace was well underway.

It was said that they were at the right location, but it is not as they remember it, with a hell lot of orbital defences and resembling a fortress world rather than a seat of power.

 

The last line once again plays with the theme of "achievement obtained through sacrifice", a meaning which is attributed to the Lightning Tower card in the story of the same name (also included in Shadows of Treachery), as basically the whole novella did.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

It was great apart from the decision to pull out came across as stupid. Yes they got ordered to, but a whole lot more would have got back to terra if they had finished the battle they were fighting first, and imagine if the Iron warriors and their primach had been destroyed? The siege of terra would have played out a lot differently.

The bit with Sigismund was kind of heartbreaking, but does give clues into how the Black templars were shaped.

[DarkChaplain]

It was great apart from the decision to pull out came across as stupid. Yes they got ordered to, but a whole lot more would have got back to terra if they had finished the battle they were fighting first, and imagine if the Iron warriors and their primach had been destroyed? The siege of terra would have played out a lot differently.

The bit with Sigismund was kind of heartbreaking, but does give clues into how the Black templars were shaped.

 

Yeah, but wasn't that the whole point? The Imperial Fists at Phall had been cut off from the Imperium for almost half a terran year (probably longer, considering they already got through the storms at the point when the story began), they did not know what was happening back at home, but they could expect Horus to make his attack run on Terra at ANY time.

Now consider that Dorn burned through a damn load of Psykers just to get his message across, which also had enough impact to fry every astropath the fleet had - that speaks of ridiculous urgency. If Dorn demanded their return that adamantly, things obviously weren't looking good at all.

 

Fighting the battle to its conclusion would have delayed their return, and the breach in the storms was instable at best, so they might have been completely cut-off again later on - it was a "now or never" situation.

Yes, they could have made Perturabo bleed, even destroyed the Iron Warriors for the most part, but it would have cost them as well, not least in terms of time.

 

Should they have beaten up the Iron Warriors? Absolutely. Even if just to reduce the sacrifices made to retreat, they should have carried on with the counterattack for a while longer.

Considering that Perturabo's Iron Warriors were vital in the Warmaster's plans to grind the Imperial Palace into a ruin, the absence of what set out as one third of the Imperial Fists might have made up for the lack of Iron Warriors during the siege - considering how few of the Fists actually survived Phall and escaped to Terra, continuing the battle would have been more than worthwhile.

 

Either way, I was literally shouting at Dorn for ruining another Imperial victory....

[Raven Angel]

Not having read the story I am not completely familiar with the particulars of the battle but I seam to recall it from the collected visions. It would seam to me that the best option would have been a rearguard assault of the type that strings the enemy out in pursuit and once they fully committed the regard turns and counterattacks tring to kill ass many of them as you can and maybe taking out key warships like the Battlebarges if you can get that far inside their screen. All the while they have covered the escape of the rest of the fleet.

[DarkChaplain]

As it was depicted in The Crimson Fist, they pulled out those ships that had the biggest chance of escaping first, and secured the retreat with a few ships.

However, the Fists had been playing very defensively, reliant on a full network of ships keeping each other safe, while others led attack runs.

The moment the retreat was decided, their defensive lines fell pretty much apart, opened up holes and when the IW realized what was going on, they beat them to shreds. It quickly became a massacre since there really was no viable way of pulling out, they were far too committed to the battle - which makes it even more foolish to drop the ball on it.

[Haranin]

better five men at the right place at the right time then an army no where important.

 

Tamberlaine made that observation. It still holds true. You want to second guess a primarch on that one?

 

rereading the collected visions, its clear that force was the vast majority of the legion... that terra only had a few beat up companies after their mars intervention.

 

Could have Dorn waited a few hours? Probably yes.

 

Did the recall order cause massive losses? yes.

 

If the few marines that arrived faster make a critical difference in the siege? definitely.

 

Collected visions indicates that they arrived hours before the attack by Horus.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

But imagine if Horus did not have the Iron warriors backing him up, and could you imagine the moral boost to the loyalists/blow to the traitors if Petrubo had been killed by non Primarch hands? Yes the message was urgent, but the fact it went from almost victory to massacre means it was pointless.

Yes the message was get back to terra as quick as possible, but surely the few hours it would have taken to at least destroy/damage the iron wariors fleet to the point it would not have been the sheer disaster it became.

[DarkChaplain]

Am with the Rune Priest on that one.

 

Perturabo and his Iron Warriors are the nemesis of Dorn's Imperial Fists - what Dorn can build and fortify, Perturabo can turn into smouldering ruins. I doubt Horus would have had it all that easy tearing down the Imperial Palace without Perturabo's siege engines.

In terms of the Siege of Terra, I'd consider the Iron Warriors more of a threat than the Emperor's Children or World Eaters. They simply wouldn't be able to effectively breach the walls without help from the other Legions. The Night Lords and Alpha Legion might have infiltrated the Palace in some way, but there's no denying that a crushing hammerblow delivered by Perturabo made the assault much, much more affordable.

 

Take that away, and Dorn might not have needed the remnants of what set out as 1/3 of his Legion.

[Inquisitor Engel]

and the only dude to ever beat Sevatar of the Night Lords in a duel

 

Sigismund didn't beat Sevatar. They fought to a standstill and Sevatar head-butted Sigismund, which disqualified him and ended the duel. Sevatar is pleased that although he was disqualified, he ruined Sigismund's perfect record by doing so. It would be if a boxer had won every fight ever by KO and then won one because the other guy decided it was an MMA cage match.

[Valkyrion]

The whole point of the withdrawal scene is simply to set up Sigismund as being a traitor.

 

That one man could command an entire fleet to suicidally withdraw, with even his staunchest opponent understanding why, all at the word of their commander, without a single questioning glance in his direction shows what the Imperial Fists should be.

 

Sigismund showed what the Imperial Fists shouldn't be, and got burned for it.

 

Thats the point - Imperial Fists follow orders.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

I always thought their trait was stubbornness, ie not to retreat and keep fighting to the bitter end, or do they get that so as not to get completly destroyed by their own primarch?

[DarKnight]

The whole point of the withdrawal scene is simply to set up Sigismund as being a traitor.

 

That one man could command an entire fleet to suicidally withdraw, with even his staunchest opponent understanding why, all at the word of their commander, without a single questioning glance in his direction shows what the Imperial Fists should be.

 

Sigismund showed what the Imperial Fists shouldn't be, and got burned for it.

 

Thats the point - Imperial Fists follow orders.

I think it was more a shasow of the bleak 40K future, you're damned if you do, and you're damned if you don't. It's Sigismund's destiny to be on Terra when the traitors arrive, even if he must disobey his Primarch to do so. Polux could have done a great deal of help for the Imperium at large if he killed Perturabo but he relented due to the orders he received. The point is, Primarchs can be wrong too, but a Legion must follow orders in order to be effective.

[Astalon]

One small detail which I questioned was Perturabo's killing of Berossus (sp?). I find it slightly inconsistent that simply because a Primarch has sided with Horus he is depicted as suddenly happy to kill his own sons. I don't see why a Primarch's attitude to his own men would change based on his own allegiances.

[DarkChaplain]

One small detail which I questioned was Perturabo's killing of Berossus (sp?). I find it slightly inconsistent that simply because a Primarch has sided with Horus he is depicted as suddenly happy to kill his own sons. I don't see why a Primarch's attitude to his own men would change based on his own allegiances.

 

Berossus is still around in 40k, btw. He was featured in Graham McNeill's Dead Sky, Black Sun, albeit as a Dreadnought, entombed "many thousands of years ago". He appears to still be a Warsmith, and his Dreadnought body is heavily modified to be even more impressive than those of the other Iron Warriors' Dreads.

 

So, in a way, I don't think Perturabo outright killed him. Crippled, maybe, but he isn't dead. Considering that McNeill's Storm of Iron (which I haven't read yet, so it might explain more about Berossus) and Dead Sky, Black Sun both refer to Iron Warriors we've at least heard about in the Heresy series, it is fairly safe to assume that he's going to tell us some more about Berossus in Angel Exterminatus. Kroeger, for example, has already been in some extracts (as far as I am aware), and he was a character in SoI.

 

Yet still, I thought the behavior fitting in some way - the logical, calculating Perturabo is a horribly sore loser. All assembled captains knew right away that to disappoint their Primarch, or bringing him bad news, was... risky at best.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

I really liked this story. Good to know when the $#|+ hit the fan every one got soiled. The retreat had me torn. At first i was thinking that the Crimson Fist should have stayed and fought it out. If they would have won it would have been better for the Good guys but i think i was wrong. If they had stayed, killed and died i think none of them would have made it back to earth in time. Won a battle just to loose a war. Even though they took a bad beating every single Imperial Fist who made it back to defend Terra in good order had to have been worth many times his number. Look at what a handful of defenders did in the short Story Iron Within. If they had fought it out, "won".. maybe then tried to leave, they might have ended up in Ultimar.

 

I also love that some of the shine has been taken off Sigismund. Makes since why the Black Templar's hate psykers.

[Brother Captain Andrew]

One small detail which I questioned was Perturabo's killing of Berossus (sp?). I find it slightly inconsistent that simply because a Primarch has sided with Horus he is depicted as suddenly happy to kill his own sons. I don't see why a Primarch's attitude to his own men would change based on his own allegiances.

 

Well, when you have already killed thousands of your own sons (istvaan III) it is tough to see where killing one more who failed you matters. Add in the fact that the worshiping of chaos necessarily involves at least indifference to death if not outright worship of it. I would imagine that by the time Istvaan V was done the traitor Primarchs at least were well on their way to being full-fledged psychopaths.

[yhta]

The whole point of the withdrawal scene is simply to set up Sigismund as being a traitor.

 

That one man could command an entire fleet to suicidally withdraw, with even his staunchest opponent understanding why, all at the word of their commander, without a single questioning glance in his direction shows what the Imperial Fists should be.

 

Sigismund showed what the Imperial Fists shouldn't be, and got burned for it.

 

Thats the point - Imperial Fists follow orders.

I think it was more a shasow of the bleak 40K future, you're damned if you do, and you're damned if you don't. It's Sigismund's destiny to be on Terra when the traitors arrive, even if he must disobey his Primarch to do so. Polux could have done a great deal of help for the Imperium at large if he killed Perturabo but he relented due to the orders he received. The point is, Primarchs can be wrong too, but a Legion must follow orders in order to be effective.

 

which is a flaw on every space marine chapter:they need to follow orders even if a bad one. something the imperiun follow blind faith more than anything else. this show us that this happen even with the primarch. who something acts like little brats when someone tell then that maybe,just MAYBE they are wrong

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

One small detail which I questioned was Perturabo's killing of Berossus (sp?). I find it slightly inconsistent that simply because a Primarch has sided with Horus he is depicted as suddenly happy to kill his own sons. I don't see why a Primarch's attitude to his own men would change based on his own allegiances.

 

Well, when you have already killed thousands of your own sons (istvaan III) it is tough to see where killing one more who failed you matters. Add in the fact that the worshiping of chaos necessarily involves at least indifference to death if not outright worship of it. I would imagine that by the time Istvaan V was done the traitor Primarchs at least were well on their way to being full-fledged psychopaths.

 

 

Umm i don't recall any Iron Warriors on Istvaan III... I don't remember any details on a purge of any kind that the IW were apart of, other then Iron Within. I also have no problem with Perturabo's heavy hand. He has to keep his Pimp hand strong or his... :cuss /Sons might get out of check.

[Piousservant]

The whole point of the withdrawal scene is simply to set up Sigismund as being a traitor.

 

Nah, I think it's setting Sigismund up for some (hopefully awesome) future screen time, so to speak.

 

He's obviously not a traitor and unless the HH team decide to do a fairly major retcon for no reason (which, they have done already, so I guess it's not entirely out of the question...), we basically already know he's going to be vindicated in his decision. The bigger and more interesting question is how and the character development that goes along with that.

 

I thought it was great, added a lot more depth to Sigismund. Since Keeler is going to be proved right, along with Sigismund, I don't see this as setting up why the BT's hate psykers. That makes no sense. Instead, I can see (once he has been redeemed and becomes Emperors Champion, etc) that his encounter and subsequent vindication of an Imperial Saint is going to make it much easier for him (and the BT) to transition from the era of the Imperial Truth to the era of the God-Emperor. Which is equally fitting within the background of the Templars and makes more sense to boot.

 

 

Also: "You will be needed before the end... Your father will need you."

 

Hmmm... http://www.hark.com/clips/zwfjmtdjqk-the-d...es-have-to-hold (the first bit)

[Valkyrion]

Dorn called him a traitor. In Sigismund's mind and in Dorn's mind he is a traitor because he didn't follow orders.

[Piousservant]

Dorn called him a traitor. In Sigismund's mind and in Dorn's mind he is a traitor because he didn't follow orders.

 

Yeah, but that doesn't actually make him a traitor...

[Necris]

What was the significance of the AC terminator (to lazy to look up his name) opening his eyes as perturabo left ?

 

The whole point was I think to tie in Honsou and his fluff as he is from Dorn gene seed captured during the heresy as mentioned in Storm of Iron

[lokkorex]

Astalon: i'll simply ignore the fact that Perturabo was portrayed as a cartoon villain that is SO evil that he kills his own LOYAL troops. that reeks of bad fiction.

 

not to mention that i've read highly intelligent discussion about the general mood and psychology of the fourth legion on this very forum suggesting that the fourth are in fact a very close-knitted legion, only depending and showing a measure of trust to each other.

[awfulawful]

What was the significance of the AC terminator (to lazy to look up his name) opening his eyes as perturabo left ?

 

The whole point was I think to tie in Honsou and his fluff as he is from Dorn gene seed captured during the heresy as mentioned in Storm of Iron

 

I had a different take on it. This bit,

His armor had mashed into his flesh.

as well as this

Navarra's eyelids trembled and snapped open.

make me think that we are seeing the birth of one of the first Obliterators.