crimson fist

[DarKnight]

Astalon: i'll simply ignore the fact that Perturabo was portrayed as a cartoon villain that is SO evil that he kills his own LOYAL troops. that reeks of bad fiction.

 

not to mention that i've read highly intelligent discussion about the general mood and psychology of the fourth legion on this very forum suggesting that the fourth are in fact a very close-knitted legion, only depending and showing a measure of trust to each other.

the ONLIEST problem I had with the Crimson Fist. Much too hokey for my taste.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Loved the twist at the end. It actually explains the Templars' allergy to psykers pretty well.

[Valkyrion]

Dorn called him a traitor. In Sigismund's mind and in Dorn's mind he is a traitor because he didn't follow orders.

 

Yeah, but that doesn't actually make him a traitor...

 

Not in the general sense it doesn't.

 

But if Sigismund thinks he's a traitor, and his master thinks he's a traitor, then what else could he be?

 

Again, IMO, that's the point of the story. The Primarchs, with regards to warfare, are pretty infallible. If the primarch orders you to withdraw even though it will result in the destruction of your fleet then you do it. Dorn knows best. Polux understood this, his other captains understood this, so they did it.

 

Dorn orders Sigismund somewhere, Sigismund lies and ignores that order. Ignoring orders = undermining command = at best, incompetence, at worst, betrayal. Dorn felt Sigismund betrayed him, Sigismund felt that he betrayed Dorn, ergo Sigismund is a traitor, at least by Imperial Fist definition.

 

This more than anything explains why the future Black Templars become nuttier than fruitcakes - their soon to be leader betrayed the entire legion, the primarch and the emperor on the word of a witch. Thats bad voodoo for a space marine.

[Arachnid99]

This more than anything explains why the future Black Templars become nuttier than fruitcakes - their soon to be leader betrayed the entire legion, the primarch and the emperor on the word of a witch. Thats bad voodoo for a space marine.

 

We are not nuttier than fruitcakes, we just have firm opinions.

[Rain]

Astalon: i'll simply ignore the fact that Perturabo was portrayed as a cartoon villain that is SO evil that he kills his own LOYAL troops. that reeks of bad fiction.

 

not to mention that i've read highly intelligent discussion about the general mood and psychology of the fourth legion on this very forum suggesting that the fourth are in fact a very close-knitted legion, only depending and showing a measure of trust to each other.

 

Yeah this is the issue with a lot of "loyalist side" stories. As for the Iron Warriors, Pete Haines used to write the best fluff for them, his Iron Warriors were cold and pitiless but didn't waste their own unnecessarily, making them feel credible and interesting instead of the "rawr Hulk smash" crap that Chaos marines often get written as.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

This more than anything explains why the future Black Templars become nuttier than fruitcakes - their soon to be leader betrayed the entire legion, the primarch and the emperor on the word of a witch. Thats bad voodoo for a space marine.

 

We are not nuttier than fruitcakes, we just have firm opinions.

Yeah, but fact of the matter is Dorn basically crapped on Sigismund at the end of Crimson Fist. To me, it actually is a great twist in the Templars' history.

[Astalon]

Astalon: i'll simply ignore the fact that Perturabo was portrayed as a cartoon villain that is SO evil that he kills his own LOYAL troops. that reeks of bad fiction.

 

not to mention that i've read highly intelligent discussion about the general mood and psychology of the fourth legion on this very forum suggesting that the fourth are in fact a very close-knitted legion, only depending and showing a measure of trust to each other.

 

Yeah this is the issue with a lot of "loyalist side" stories. As for the Iron Warriors, Pete Haines used to write the best fluff for them, his Iron Warriors were cold and pitiless but didn't waste their own unnecessarily, making them feel credible and interesting instead of the "rawr Hulk smash" crap that Chaos marines often get written as.

 

I agree, part of the appeal of the Heresy and 40k setting in general is that the notion of 'good' guys and 'bad' guys are dispensed with. Rather, the moral dimensions are loyalty and treachery. However, as has been said, Perturabo was written as some kind of evil mastermind who dispenses with those who cease to be useful to him, rather than reflect the fact he is still a Primarch and master of a legion whom he wants to preserve and prosper.

[Uzhirian]

Astalon: i'll simply ignore the fact that Perturabo was portrayed as a cartoon villain that is SO evil that he kills his own LOYAL troops. that reeks of bad fiction.

 

not to mention that i've read highly intelligent discussion about the general mood and psychology of the fourth legion on this very forum suggesting that the fourth are in fact a very close-knitted legion, only depending and showing a measure of trust to each other.

 

Yeah this is the issue with a lot of "loyalist side" stories. As for the Iron Warriors, Pete Haines used to write the best fluff for them, his Iron Warriors were cold and pitiless but didn't waste their own unnecessarily, making them feel credible and interesting instead of the "rawr Hulk smash" crap that Chaos marines often get written as.

 

I agree, part of the appeal of the Heresy and 40k setting in general is that the notion of 'good' guys and 'bad' guys are dispensed with. Rather, the moral dimensions are loyalty and treachery. However, as has been said, Perturabo was written as some kind of evil mastermind who dispenses with those who cease to be useful to him, rather than reflect the fact he is still a Primarch and master of a legion whom he wants to preserve and prosper.

 

It's not that out of character, especially for a choas primarch. Throughout the Horus Heresy series there is many examples of Primarchs, both loyal and chaos, smacking around and/or killing their own 'sons' because they are angry at them or something thats been said or done.

[yhta]

yeah. sigsimund is a traitor not in the 40k sense of the word(someone who left the imperium) is more betrayal of everything the imperial fist stand. also keeler is not a saint(yet):she is a witch. and sigsimund listen her over his primarch that is almost like his father? i understand why dorn will be mad about it

 

and the perturabo killing his own soldier maybe sound a little badass decay. but it can be more like social darwiness in this:he wants the best and is someone fails he has not place in the iron warriors. also can be the fact that he is dorn. his archi-rival and the only one that can break the cold logic of perturabo.

[Kierdale]

I finished the story yesterday and, beyond the excellent miniatures of The Damned Artificer and Brother Syth I hadn't had much interest in Dorn's boys until I read The Crimson Fist.

Very interesting indeed!

I must admit when I read about Navarra opening his eyes at the end I had a What? Who? moment and had to flick back a few pages to find out who he was.

I feel the story gave a very good idea of who the IF are and how they work.

And finally I loved the scene with Dorn and Sigismund atop the palace. Excellent stuff.

[Marshal Rohr]

Navarro shows up in Angel Exterminatus and gets turned into one of Fabulous Bills creatures.

[godking]

 

and the only dude to ever beat Sevatar of the Night Lords in a duel

Sigismund didn't beat Sevatar. They fought to a standstill and Sevatar head-butted Sigismund, which disqualified him and ended the duel. Sevatar is pleased that although he was disqualified, he ruined Sigismund's perfect record by doing so. It would be if a boxer had won every fight ever by KO and then won one because the other guy decided it was an MMA cage match.

Sisigmund won. Taking yourself out of the game by fouling because you are deadlocked means that you lost per the rules that you agreed upon before the fight started.

[lokkorex]

after angel exterminatus came out, someone proposed that the reason perturabo smacked seven shades of midnight out of berossus was because they were fighting imperial fists.

 

it means that perturabos hatred, and sense of injustice he feels, against rogal dorn and the banana marines/canary astartes is so great that he turns into a full-blooded psycopath whenever he fights against them.

 

btw, did anyone get rubbed the wrong way by graham mcneills recycling of characters in angel exterminatus? i'm talking about the fact that berossus, the warsmith, forrix, toramino, grendel, and kroeger are all in the fricking book.

 

the only new characters i can think of is Harkor and soulaka, why couldn't he have made some more new characters, instead of making every sngle Iron warrior he's written before make a turn on the stage?

[Augustus]

Cause ALL of the major iron warriors survive the heresy. .. Wait that's not fair. ADB shows some major characters dying.

I didn't like it either. Same planet :cuss

[Augustus]

Cause ALL of the major iron warriors survive the heresy. .. Wait that's not fair. ADB shows some major characters dying.

I didn't like it either. Same planet :cuss

[Augustus]

Cause ALL of the major iron warriors survive the heresy. .. Wait that's not fair. ADB shows some major characters dying.

I didn't like it either. Same planet :cuss

[Augustus]

Cause ALL of the major iron warriors survive the heresy. .. Wait that's not fair. ADB shows some major characters dying.

I didn't like it either. Same planet :cuss

[lokkorex]

Augustus: lagging computer?

 

just for the record, were you aggreeing with me?

[godking]

after angel exterminatus came out, someone proposed that the reason perturabo smacked seven shades of midnight out of berossus was because they were fighting imperial fists.

 

it means that perturabos hatred, and sense of injustice he feels, against rogal dorn and the banana marines/canary astartes is so great that he turns into a full-blooded psycopath whenever he fights against them.

 

btw, did anyone get rubbed the wrong way by graham mcneills recycling of characters in angel exterminatus? i'm talking about the fact that berossus, the warsmith, forrix, toramino, grendel, and kroeger are all in the fricking book.

 

the only new characters i can think of is Harkor and soulaka, why couldn't he have made some more new characters, instead of making every sngle Iron warrior he's written before make a turn on the stage?

HONourable SOUlaka is not a new character ;-) . But your right the constant name dropping of every Iron Warrior that he ever created was tedious I really did'nt need to see Obax Zakayo mentioned by Graham McNeill.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

 

 

and the only dude to ever beat Sevatar of the Night Lords in a duel

Sigismund didn't beat Sevatar. They fought to a standstill and Sevatar head-butted Sigismund, which disqualified him and ended the duel. Sevatar is pleased that although he was disqualified, he ruined Sigismund's perfect record by doing so. It would be if a boxer had won every fight ever by KO and then won one because the other guy decided it was an MMA cage match.

Sisigmund won. Taking yourself out of the game by fouling because you are deadlocked means that you lost per the rules that you agreed upon before the fight started.

I like to think of it like this.  Before the fight Sigs was undisputed champion.  After the fight he was just the undefeated champion.  If Sev had a pair like Loken , and he had told Sigs it was a No Holds Barred kinda match, like Lucius agreed to, then it would have been a out right defeat.  Sigs did not Win the fight, he "won".  He won* ../wink.  To some one with the pride of Sigs it could have been as devastating a event as what happens to Lucius.

[Grimdarkness]

 

 

What was the significance of the AC terminator (to lazy to look up his name) opening his eyes as perturabo left ?

The whole point was I think to tie in Honsou and his fluff as he is from Dorn gene seed captured during the heresy as mentioned in Storm of Iron

 

I had a different take on it. This bit,

>His armor had mashed into his flesh.

as well as this

Navarra's eyelids trembled and snapped open.

make me think that we are seeing the birth of one of the first Obliterators.

 

Maybe but Honsou is a "halfbreed" meaning some of his implant's are from an imperial fist.

[godking]

 

 

 

and the only dude to ever beat Sevatar of the Night Lords in a duel

Sigismund didn't beat Sevatar. They fought to a standstill and Sevatar head-butted Sigismund, which disqualified him and ended the duel. Sevatar is pleased that although he was disqualified, he ruined Sigismund's perfect record by doing so. It would be if a boxer had won every fight ever by KO and then won one because the other guy decided it was an MMA cage match.

Sisigmund won. Taking yourself out of the game by fouling because you are deadlocked means that you lost per the rules that you agreed upon before the fight started.

I like to think of it like this.  Before the fight Sigs was undisputed champion.  After the fight he was just the undefeated champion.  If Sev had a pair like Loken , and he had told Sigs it was a No Holds Barred kinda match, like Lucius agreed to, then it would have been a out right defeat.  Sigs did not Win the fight, he "won".  He won* ../wink.  To some one with the pride of Sigs it could have been as devastating a event as what happens to Lucius.

Fair enough but if Sev had asked for a no holds barred match and sisigmund had accepted that would mean that Sisigmund would also fight no holds barred and that he probably would not have been suprised by Sevatars headbutt. 

 

Sisigmund was also undefeated in the world eaters fighting pits and world eaters fight as dirty or dirtier then Nightlords.

 

Sisigmund is'nt Lucius he is not a ''duelist'' he is a champion and has none of Lucius issues.

 

Per the rules agreed upon before the fight sisigmund won and still has his status as undisputed champion.

 

If in the Tyson Douglas fight in Tokyo  Buster Douglas had headbutted Tyson in a deadlocked  fight and disqualified himself Tyson would still have been undisputed champion.

 

If they had fought on the street  no hold barred and Douglas beats him with a headbutt its an outright defeat. 

 

If its a no holds barred fight that both agree upon its 50-50 Sevatar will be unrestrained in a no holds barred match but so will sisigmund. 

 

What was proven is that Sevatar can hang with Sisigmund and could beat him if its no holds barred it's not sure that he would beat him.

[Castellan Michael]

One small detail which I questioned was Perturabo's killing of Berossus (sp?). I find it slightly inconsistent that simply because a Primarch has sided with Horus he is depicted as suddenly happy to kill his own sons. I don't see why a Primarch's attitude to his own men would change based on his own allegiances.

Well, when you have already killed thousands of your own sons (istvaan III) it is tough to see where killing one more who failed you matters. Add in the fact that the worshiping of chaos necessarily involves at least indifference to death if not outright worship of it. I would imagine that by the time Istvaan V was done the traitor Primarchs at least were well on their way to being full-fledged psychopaths.

Umm i don't recall any Iron Warriors on Istvaan III... I don't remember any details on a purge of any kind that the IW were apart of, other then Iron Within. I also have no problem with Perturabo's heavy hand. He has to keep his Pimp hand strong or his... /Sons might get out of check.

Was it in "Iron Within" at least one on the short stories that the Iron Warriors tried to collect all of their brethren left to guard the various outposts or kill those who were loyalist? So even the Iron Warriors had their own little Istvaan IIIs.

[mysteriousmaskedmystery]

even though dorn can't stand sigismund for his actions, sigismund was right to do what he did.  had he been in charge of the force Pollux leads, he would have lead his legionaries to defeat before Dorn was ever able to contact him.  the IW strategy was based upon the premiss that sigismund would be leading the IF, wasn't it and because of that Pollux was able to run circles around them.