The "two weapons" bonus

[DK1]

So playing 5th (and 4th) for so long i'm not sure if i'm crazy but how do you think this works?

 

So ill use GK for exp since i know them the best, a Strike squad Knight has a profile of 1A, he carries a sword and a storm bolter...Both of these weapons nither have Specialist or two handed. Does he get an extra attack for having two weapons...same goes with bolter and CCW or pistols...bolter do not have either rule, do reg SM have 3As on a charge now?

 

I have seen how 6th makes CC harder to get into but so much more deadly...i can see this going either way.

[greatcrusade08]

the bonus is only given for two assault weapons.. thisis close combat weapons and pistols.

bolters and storm bolters do not qualify

[DK1]

o ok...i missed the assault part of that.

[I_Heart_69]

Not weapons with the Assault type mind you, just close combat weapons, power weapons, and pistols. Or two specialist weapons.

[dswanick]

The specific tag you are looking for is "Melee". It is just like "Specialist" in that if you have two "Melee" weapons that model gains the +1A bonus. "Melee" and "Specialist" are not compatible, thus you don't get the +1A for having one "Melee" and one "Specialist" weapon. Pistols gain the "Melee" in Close Combat according to the Pistol description in the BRB.

[DK1]

Ignoring 5th Ed...6th says on pg 24:

+1A for models with two single handed weapons.

Then gives a i.e for melee weapon and a pistol, but dosen't not state that it needs be only a pistol as the rule says two single handed weapons. This would make me believe that any single handed weapon combo gives +1A.

 

On page 51 is says pistol can be used as close combat, but i think thats only stating that if a model has two pistols it gets a +1A.

 

If this is wrong what pg can i look at to show people otherwise.

[maturin]

GW's use of "single-handed" terminology in the rulebook is confusing, and a holdover from 5th.

 

If you read the rules carefully, combining p.24, p.50, and p.51 you'll see that essentially "melee" = singlehanded, unless it has the specialist weapon rule (p.42).

 

A pistol in melee count as a single melee ccw in all respects (p.51) - so you get the bonus if it's 2 pistols or 1 melee ccw + 1 pistol (that's what the and/or terminology on p.24 means).

 

 

Now I think this next part is where your confusion lies:

on p.51 it says that models with no melee weapon count as having a single ccw. But no where in the rule book does it say what a weapon without the melee rule counts as. By RAI, once you have a melee weapon your non-melee weapons don't count at all. But the rules don't explicitly say to ignore non-melee weapons, nor do they tell you what they count as.

 

RAW fails here. Go with RAI.

[Toasterfree]

GW's use of "single-handed" terminology in the rulebook is confusing, and a holdover from 5th.

i think single handed may go back to 2nd. i know that it goes back to at least third.

[PhilOfCalth]

According to the Rules on page 25 (under +1 2 Weapons) and the special rules on page 42 (regarding Specialist Weapons) & page 43 (regarding Two-Handed), you can get an extra attack of any two weapons that don't have either of the aforementioned special rules.

 

The rules for Specialist Weapons state that you can only get an extra attack if you are using it with another specialist weapon.

 

Clear?

[DK1]

According to the Rules on page 25 (under +1 2 Weapons) and the special rules on page 42 (regarding Specialist Weapons) & page 43 (regarding Two-Handed), you can get an extra attack of any two weapons that don't have either of the aforementioned special rules.

 

The rules for Specialist Weapons state that you can only get an extra attack if you are using it with another specialist weapon.

 

Clear?

 

 

that is what i was thinking...otherwise bolters would have the 2 handed rule to break this...maybe it will be FAQed

[puffin]

Two things of note here:

 

i) P.24 is clearly missing the modifier "close-combat" in the phrase "Engaged models with two single-handed [close-combat] weapons get +1 Attack". This is spelled out in the next paragraph where it says "For example, [marines with bolters do not get +1 attack for 2 weapons]".

ii) P.51 Close Combat Weapons states that a model without either a Pistol or Melee type weapon is treated as having a single close combat weapon (Space Marines don't get this as they already have their bolt pistol).

[PhilOfCalth]

I can't see that they meant all weapons (assault, rapid fire, heavy, etc) to be counted as 1 handed weapons. In the 4th edition codex it specified some wargear as being 1 handed, and others as being 2 handed. I guess until it's FAQed, we'll have to use common sense :D

[Pariah Mk.231]

I'm not really seeing the problem here, you get an extra attack from having either: two single-handed melee weapons, a single-handed melee weapon and a pistol, two pistols or two specialist weapons. Since bolters are not melee weapons nor are they pistols, not being listed as two-handed doesn't mean a thing, they don't grant an extra attack.

 

Bolters are very clearly listed in the "Ranged Weapon" section (along with storm bolters, plasmaguns, flamers, etc.) and lack the "pistol" type, which means there shouldn't even be a question of whether they qualify as a second single-handed weapon for a marine to use in conjunction with his bolt pistol to gain an additional attack. As for the rule about a model with no specified melee weapon counting as a having a single-handed melee weapon, remember that in combat a pistol counts as a melee weapon, meaning a model armed with a pistol does not gain another single-handed melee weapon as he already has a weapon that is treated as such.

[DK1]

I think the problem here is that the book SHOULD say "+1A if a model has two CCW"...but it dosent...it only says if a model has two weapons, as for the examples it lists a model with a bolter does not get it, and a model with pistol and CCW gets it...if no one has ever played earlier EDs i think this would lead to belive that it gives an extra attack.

 

to add it dosent cover if you had a bolter and CCW or pistol.

[Raeven]

Pg 51, More than one weapon. Clarifies it even better. It reminds you than 2 "melee" weapons grant a +1 attack, as noted on pg. 24.

 

You have to remember the context when you are reading these rules. Melee weapons are the only weapons you can attack with in close combat. Only weapons with the pistol rule combine a shooting weapon with a melee weapon. So when the rule in close combat refers to two weapons, two handed, single handed, etc...it is only refering to close combat weapons.

 

Thne rules in the shooting phase are the same.. they are only describing rules regarding weapons that can be used in a shooting attack.

[Fire Lord Captain]

What about terminators with storm bolter and a powerfist? I've always given them the bonus.. Am I wrong?

[DK1]

yes because power fists have the specialist rule...however terms with swords and storm bolters would be in this argument.

[Fire Lord Captain]

My friend plays CSM and he states that Chaos Marines have a bolter, bolt pistol and a combat knife. He always gives them an extra attack in CC, even though they are carrying a bolter. Is that correct?

[dswanick]

My friend plays CSM and he states that Chaos Marines have a bolter, bolt pistol and a combat knife. He always gives them an extra attack in CC, even though they are carrying a bolter. Is that correct?

Yes - Bolt Pistol (melee in CC) + CCW (melee weapon) = 2 Melee weapons

[Raeven]

yes because power fists have the specialist rule...however terms with swords and storm bolters would be in this argument.

 

Storm bolters are assault weapons, not pistols. They confer no bonus attack in close combat.

 

My friend plays CSM and he states that Chaos Marines have a bolter, bolt pistol and a combat knife. He always gives them an extra attack in CC, even though they are carrying a bolter. Is that correct?

You might want to check this rule. I was told that all chaos space marines has to buy their ccw. That they only come standard with bolters, pistols, and frag/krak grenades.

[dswanick]

My friend plays CSM and he states that Chaos Marines have a bolter, bolt pistol and a combat knife. He always gives them an extra attack in CC, even though they are carrying a bolter. Is that correct?

You might want to check this rule. I was told that all chaos space marines has to buy their ccw. That they only come standard with bolters, pistols, and frag/krak grenades.

Since the new 6th Ed C:CSM book just came out, this exchange probably happened during the period of the 5th Ed codex which did give CSMs all three. Plus, I haven't met a CSM player yet who doesn't buy the CCW.

[Ghazhkull Thraka]

Page 50 of the Warhammer 40K 6th edition rulebook, last sentence under the heading "Type".