Dread Knights without teleporters?

[himkano]

I know that teleporters significantly increase their threat, but are they essential? I am looking at a list with 3 Dread knights, to support a unit of paladins and 2 units of GKSS.

I gave the DKs Heavy Flamers, but there are no points for teleporters, unless I drop a Dread. If I give them scout, they can be in, or close to melee in turn 2, they just won't have the 30" shunt. Given the choice between 2 Dread Knights with teleporters, or 3 without, what do you guys think?

 

On a related note, another way I can pay for it is to drop 4 Paladins, but then I start to get worried that my support units don't have enough army to support. Assuming that Draigo is going to have to walk across the board, is 6 Paladins enough - if I have 3 jumping dread knights?

[Circus Nurgling]

I play chaos as my other army (if it isn't obvious from my user name) and it seems to me that a Dreadknight without teleportation is like a Daemon Prince without wings. My .02. I'd rather have 2 DPs with wings than 3 without, anyday. I'm not sure if the same logic stands for NDKs, but that's how I look at it. I found the points for shunt on mine.

[Zeratul29]

Go two dreadknights IMO

[spartan249]

The POU on Dreadknights change drastically with the inclusion/exclusion of Personal Teleporters. The main question you need to ask yourself is this: What exactly are my dreadknights doing in my army?

 

If you want your dreadknights to bolster weak flanks, menace little school children on their merry way to their objectives, and pounce on opportunities provided by your opponent, Teleporter equipped DKs are your tool for the job.

 

If you're looking for a big Slender Man to pop up and go boo, then teleporters are a waste of points. Dropping teleporters gives you that extra dreadknight, which is 4 more wounds to chip through for your opponent, and thus a more effective diversion for you to take advantage of.

 

For that related note... no, it really isn't. While Dreadknights are definitely not a slouch, they can not carry an army by themselves. They simply do not have the statistical capability to do the legwork that you need done. Dreadknights are all about supporting a main offensive. GK lists fall apart when Dreadknights begin pretending that they are the main offensive and everyone else is on back-up duty. When they die (and die they will, my DKs rarely survive any battle), you have to take advantage of the time bought by their deaths in order to achieve your objectives. A full squad of Paladins are handicapped enough as it is. Reducing their number to make their diversionary forces slightly better does not do you much good.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Teleporters are mandatory. Anyone who tells you otherwise is wrong. Pure and simple. Foot-slogging DK's is doing it wrong. DK's barely survive 2-3 enemy Shooting phases with a teleporter, foot-slogging is just giving the enemy a free kill.

 

Likewise, ignore all the gun options. Greatsword is the only upgrade aside from teleporter worth taking. Re-rolls make him a god in challenges (he's still a character, only Paladins got FAQ'd IIRC). He also eats squads and tanks with impunity.

 

I view the DK as a cruise missile to be launched into enemy lines. Do not expect him to survive past Turn 3, or sometimes even Turn 2. Any additional kills/combats he contributes past Turn 2 should be considered bonus kills. Shunt him up the board, preferably behind some decent terrain, then fly around and hack things to death. Don't shoot with him, we have far better gun platforms everywhere in our codex.

 

He's surprisingly durable, at least until people remember AP2 exists in their army and start shifting their special/heavy weapon selection. 6th edition is the age of the lascannon and plasma gun (and railgun etc). Meltaguns are going back to being specialised weapons taken on specific units, not spammed with impunity. Plasma cannons are back with a vengeance. Lascannons are so much better than krak rockets its not funny. All of which makes the DK cry, as his primary troll ability last edition was charging Long Fangs and bouncing krak rockets of his 2+ save.

At least in melee, the power weapon nerf works in your favour (vanishingly small number of things have AP2 and I4, mostly other MC's which cost at least as much as you, and a handful of characters). You laugh off swords and lightning claws, and if they went powerfist/thunderhammer you smush them before they swing back.

[nurglez]

The POU on Dreadknights change drastically with the inclusion/exclusion of Personal Teleporters. The main question you need to ask yourself is this: What exactly are my dreadknights doing in my army?

 

If you want your dreadknights to bolster weak flanks, menace little school children on their merry way to their objectives, and pounce on opportunities provided by your opponent, Teleporter equipped DKs are your tool for the job.

 

If you're looking for a big Slender Man to pop up and go boo, then teleporters are a waste of points. Dropping teleporters gives you that extra dreadknight, which is 4 more wounds to chip through for your opponent, and thus a more effective diversion for you to take advantage of.

 

I agree with this :D

 

Alongside my paladins I use my DK/s as harrassment, and anti horde. Being able to shunt means they can either run off to threaten lone scoring units, or head one way to pull an enemy one direction then shunting away to pick on a weak flank/support my main push. And it's not just the shunt but a regular 12 inch move, vastly extending his threat range each turn he is alive (which to be honest isn't that long generally).

 

All told, it depends what sort of force I was using. I only own 2 DK's and while in my 1500 point list I have one with a teleporter and one without, thats only because I really couldn't find the points for it (and I would pick a walking DK with heavy incinerator over a psyrifle dread).

 

Remember that deep striking in, along with servo skulls, is a viable tactic. with such a large base he can easily be within 6 of a servo skull and still threaten something (well, depending on your skull placement and opponent of course).

[number6]

For what it's worth, I've now played 2 6e games at 1500 pts, based around terminators, with a single DK. The DK has a heavy incinerator but no teleporter. One game was against Blood Angels, the other (last night), Space Wolves. Both games (for reasons due to the campaign rules) I was up against 1650 pts. In both games, I tabled the opponents, and lost no more than 3 units in return.

 

That is, not only has the DK survived both games, it has never suffered more than a single wound. And it has beaten face like you wouldn't believe.

 

Here's the list, for full context, because I believe part of the reason I have had success is because of the entirety of the list construction, not because building my DK one way or another has any truly inherent advantages or disadvantages. (Like I have always said, it's not about individual unit composition. Success comes from list composition.)

 

HQ

[100 pts] Brotherhood Champion

[83 pts] OM Inquisitor: TDA, hammer, psycannon, servo skull

 

Elite

[277 pts] 10 Purifiers: 2 psycannons, incinerator, hammer, 6 halberds

 

Troop

[225 pts] 5 Terminators: psycannon, hammer, 4 halberds

[225 pts] 5 Terminators: psycannon, hammer, 4 halberds

[225 pts] 5 Terminators: psycannon, hammer, 4 halberds

 

Fast Attack

[205 pts] Stormraven: TLMM, TLLC

 

Heavy Support

[160 pts] Dreadknight: heavy incinerator

 

Total: 1500 pts

 

Cheap and chipper, that's the way I like my DKs. Usually. And for this army list, it's the right choice. The BC ties up any uber-character in CC -- and probably eventually takes it down as well -- while I advance a terminator wall with purifier support. If I had bought a teleporter here, anything I would have had to sacrifice as a result would give me a weaker list, breaking it in some fashion that I find unacceptable.

 

I do use a teleporter when I feel it's necessary. But ... I don't think it's strictly necessary. Same with the greatsword. Given the current FAQ ruling, no doubt but the greatsword is a terrific option. But still, not strictly necessary. Depends on your list. Pure and simple.

[shortysl]

Teleporters are mandatory. Anyone who tells you otherwise is wrong. Pure and simple. Foot-slogging DK's is doing it wrong. DK's barely survive 2-3 enemy Shooting phases with a teleporter, foot-slogging is just giving the enemy a free kill.

 

Likewise, ignore all the gun options. Greatsword is the only upgrade aside from teleporter worth taking. Re-rolls make him a god in challenges (he's still a character, only Paladins got FAQ'd IIRC). He also eats squads and tanks with impunity.

 

Wow, sure is a good job this is a site that allows for opinions.

 

I take my solitary Dreadknight with a Heavy Incinerator and without a Personal Teleporter. The whole point of him IS to draw fire because he's so Emperor-damn scary. I'm more of the opinion that you should be using other units in your army (ones that aren't being shot at because of the Dreadknight) to advance on, and neutralise, those enemy units that can threaten the Dreadknight and, by extension, your other units. The secret to winning is NOT one unit within your army, no matter how powerful. The secret to winning is to make your units complement each other. The Dreadknight is a complementary unit, not a game-winning one.

[stephane4985]

The point is, having a dreadknight moving a little more that 6 inch a turn is not always an immediate threat that the enemy should concentrate firing at right from the first turn. So they can use that first or second turn to kill other important thing in your army.

 

Having the dread moving 12+ inch a turn or be able to teleport 30, means that even on turn 1, the enemy must try to kill it, hence giving more change to the rest of your army to do your job and stay alive.

[shortysl]

The point is, having a dreadknight moving a little more that 6 inch a turn is not always an immediate threat that the enemy should concentrate firing at right from the first turn. So they can use that first or second turn to kill other important thing in your army.

 

Having the dread moving 12+ inch a turn or be able to teleport 30, means that even on turn 1, the enemy must try to kill it, hence giving more change to the rest of your army to do your job and stay alive.

 

Are you missing the point of deployment? Most deployment zones are 12" deep so the shorter movement isn't actually a problem. The Dreadknight becomes a threat immediately; it begins the game in range of the enemy with any of its ranged weapons and can be in assault range on Turn 2. To say it's not an immediate threat is actually false; you can make it a threat.

[stephane4985]

it is a threat, with or without a teleporter. As much as any other unit in your list. But with the teleporter, it is THE threat.

 

Especially in Hammer and Anvil. Where even if you deploy 12 inch from the middle, if the enemy is static, they can be more than 30 inch away. If your unlucky to get the scenario with random objectifs and they get more points on their side, you're screwed.

[shortysl]

it is a threat, with or without a teleporter. As much as any other unit in your list. But with the teleporter, it is THE threat.

 

Especially in Hammer and Anvil. Where even if you deploy 12 inch from the middle, if the enemy is static, they can be more than 30 inch away. If your unlucky to get the scenario with random objectifs and they get more points on their side, you're screwed.

 

You make a good point, but I must admit I find it hard to justify the cost of the Personal Teleporter even for scenarios such as that. Boils down to personal preference of course, but I always see my Dreadknights as the 'implacable advance' unit as opposed to the 'lightning strike' unit.

 

I could get bogged down in this discussion quite easily so before I do, I'll just say that I've put my point across. Hope it helps the OP in his/her considerations and it's been good discussing this point with you Stephane.

[stephane4985]

everybody is free to make his own choice. :D

 

Maybe I was just unlucky to get bad pairing with deployement/missions that gave me a hard time, so I have a different view.

 

I usually build my list so in the worst case, everything is still functional as intended, so sometimes it means I'm paying more than I should for nothing, but when bad scenario happened, it reminds me that it was worth it after all.

[spartan249]

:/

 

Deep Strike is out there people... use it, I say :lol: That makes non PT dreadknights get into threat range as soon as it descends.

 

PT Dreadknights have the inferred advantage of being able to choose it's combats due to it's mobility, while non-PT dreadknights for the most part have little say in what it assaults. Keeping this in mind while including the DK in your list will keep your expectations reasonable when using them.

[Gentlemanloser]

Teleporters are mandatory. Anyone who tells you otherwise is wrong. Pure and simple. Foot-slogging DK's is doing it wrong. DK's barely survive 2-3 enemy Shooting phases with a teleporter, foot-slogging is just giving the enemy a free kill.

 

Likewise, ignore all the gun options. Greatsword is the only upgrade aside from teleporter worth taking. Re-rolls make him a god in challenges (he's still a character, only Paladins got FAQ'd IIRC). He also eats squads and tanks with impunity.

 

Sorry RD, that's totally wrong! :yes:

 

A NDK with only the H Incinerator (which has the same threat range as the majoirty of the rest of our army) is an outright steal. For pure Pew Pew, a NDK with a Gattling Psilencer costs 165 points, and outshoots an equivalent amount of GKT, while being *more* durable thanks to the T6.

 

Also, if the TDA save isn't enough, you can easily give him mobile cover from your Razors/Dreads.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

A NDK with only the H Incinerator (which has the same threat range as the majoirty of the rest of our army) is an outright steal. For pure Pew Pew, a NDK with a Gattling Psilencer costs 165 points, and outshoots an equivalent amount of GKT, while being *more* durable thanks to the T6.

 

I don't want or need an incinerator. Chaff infantry don't stand a chance in a shootout with anything called 'Grey Knight', cover or not. Marines are going to lose some dudes (wounding on 2's will net casualties), but its still not very reliable, because power armour. Don't get me wrong, the incinerator is a good weapon, but I never find I need it in my army. Anti-infantry is something Knights do very well already, so template weaponry is sorta surplus to requirements.

Psilencer is the worst gun in the game (hot-shot at least ignores PA). I'm not paying more than a PsyDread base (then add gun cost) for S4 pew pew. I have storm bolter on every infantry model not called 'Henchmen' or 'Ally'. Daemons also auto-lose to us (with CSM they stand a chance), so its bonus ability against them is irrelevant.

 

Heavy Support is the area of the army that brings the pain. It exists to provide abilities and weapons you can't get on your Troops, and often even Elites. Dreadknight offers a fast unit (rare for Knights, its basically him or Interceptors) who murders vehicles and squads with re-rolls. We are unique amoungst Marines in having a pseudo-Daemon Prince. Walking him into lascannon and plasma at the usual snail's pace we advance is a losing proposition. Sure, if people are dumb and don't bring ranged AP2 and/or put shots into him, he'll live, but that is unlikely.

 

Deep Strike is out there people... use it, I say That makes non PT dreadknights get into threat range as soon as it descends.

 

Deepstrike is for suicide melta, or for drop pod armies. If you Deepstrike a Dreadknight into enemy lines, you are feeding him to their gun-line. The teleporter lets you flat-out avoid their screening efforts and attack from angles they can't cover (or force them to expose a flank to your main phalanx advancing to the mid-field). Shunting is huge, it has won me games. Basic castling tactics and screening will make it a turkey shoot. Same reason why I usually prefer walking Paladins or Termie blob into the mid-field, DS is just too risky and not being able to assault when you turn up sucks.

 

Keeping this in mind while including the DK in your list will keep your expectations reasonable when using them.

 

Very true. Your DK is basically on a clock from enemy Turn 1 shooting phase onwards. That's why you need to close and get into melee ASAP. Once in melee, their only options for murdering you are multiple fists (so Terminators, Meganobz etc), or a high Initiative character with AP2 at Initiative (neither of which are common). I typically hit melee with two wounds left, and then I murder entire units with impunity. Walkers can't tie him up either, the re-rolls flat-out murder Dreadnoughts. I generally lose my DK to winning combat accidentally in my turn, then being exposed to a good ol' plasma gunning/melta'ing in his turn.

[spartan249]

Deep striking dreadknights create a diversion that you can take advantage of to achieve your objectives. For me, the ability to ignore cover is an essential ability to have, as cover save shenanigans are very easy to pull off, thus rendering normal shooting ineffective. The threat of flamers also force the OPFOR to disperse when deploying, retarding their ability to focus fire and thus helping you achieve a secondary objective of local superiority. Deep strike affords you the option of hitting anything on the board with the incinerator, and the implied threat can be used to leverage your grasp on the OPFOR's maneuvering.

[Gentlemanloser]

I don't want or need an incinerator. Chaff infantry don't stand a chance in a shootout with anything called 'Grey Knight', cover or not.

 

How about the new Plague Zombies? 30 man Squad, T4, FnP. While you won't negate the FnP with it, you're gonna be able to cover far more of the Squad than with a normal incinerator, and this option doesn't compete with Psycannons (cuz no one uses the Heavy Psycannon...).

 

Templates are also godly versus things like Pathfinders, or other units (some SM can now achive this) with 2+ Cover Saves.

 

That you can also get some extra hits from overwatch is just pure gravy. ;)

[nurglez]

A heavy incinerator is pure gold. especially with Aegis defence lines and vs scoring units that have + to their cover save (scouts, pathfinders etc), as these models usually have a armour save of 4+ or worse. I would never take any ranged weapon apart from a heavy incinerator.

 

And I have used DK's with and without PT's, just because you deep strike doesn't mean you have to throw them at the enemy, a servo skull reduces scatter, placing the dk so it is within 12 of the servo skull and can still threaten an enemy unit can be very useful due to the DK's large base.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

How about the new Plague Zombies? 30 man Squad, T4, FnP. While you won't negate the FnP with it, you're gonna be able to cover far more of the Squad than with a normal incinerator, and this option doesn't compete with Psycannons (cuz no one uses the Heavy Psycannon...).

 

I'm usually going to take my hilarious plasma cannon spam build against CSM anyway, so I have templates galore. But yeah, if I have the points knocking around, I'll throw the heavy incinerator on my DK (he already has it modelled). I'm not especially worried about Cultists though, Zombies have SnP so they're even slower than normal Cultists blob.

 

Templates are also godly versus things like Pathfinders, or other units (some SM can now achive this) with 2+ Cover Saves.

 

That you can also get some extra hits from overwatch is just pure gravy.

 

Yeah, thats true. I don't fight a lot of Scouts or Pathfinders though (local Marines mech a lot, or go PA heavy, Eldar go mech or Guardian spam). That said, I might just add it back on, drop some upgrades elsewhere. DK has superb mobility for landing the template as well.

 

Deep striking dreadknights create a diversion that you can take advantage of to achieve your objectives. For me, the ability to ignore cover is an essential ability to have, as cover save shenanigans are very easy to pull off, thus rendering normal shooting ineffective. The threat of flamers also force the OPFOR to disperse when deploying, retarding their ability to focus fire and thus helping you achieve a secondary objective of local superiority. Deep strike affords you the option of hitting anything on the board with the incinerator, and the implied threat can be used to leverage your grasp on the OPFOR's maneuvering.

 

It's not a diversion. The enemy simply kill your pricey lone model with AP2/counter-assault, then you're down a chunk of points and a lot of threat potential.

OPFOR?

I can already hit anything on the board with the incinerator, it's called shunt moves and jump infantry status. Deepstrike robs me of movement however, which is pants on such a mobile unit.

 

And I have used DK's with and without PT's, just because you deep strike doesn't mean you have to throw them at the enemy, a servo skull reduces scatter, placing the dk so it is within 12 of the servo skull and can still threaten an enemy unit can be very useful due to the DK's large base.

 

I stopped using servo-skulls after opponents simply moved into range to make them evaporate. In any case, reducing scatter isn't the issue, its the rules around Deepstrike. They suck, and when you have the alternative of shunting and jump movement, I much prefer the latter. Same reason so few people Deepstrike their Assault Marines or Warp Spiders. It's just easier to deploy normally and then use speed to get upfield to where you need to be.

[spartan249]

... that is exactly what a diversion is. You influence the OPFOR's decisions on target priority by forcing a change in the equation via a cheap dreadknight or two. It's not very expensive at all, causes a bit of damage on the drop, and forces the OPFOR to make a decision: abandon the position they are poised to engage and focus on the bulk threat, or dedicate the firepower required to eliminate the dreadknights at the expense of leaving the main assault relatively unscathed?

 

... of course I know about the mobility of the DK. I run them with PTs as a matter of course. I'm saying that going without PTs and using deep strike to get there instead is a valid way of achieving a different tactic. DKs can be surprisingly hard to kill when positioned correctly, which in turn can cause a state of panic and create the opportunities you need to claim victory.

 

(btw, OPFOR stands for opposing force)

[Gentlemanloser]

It's not a diversion. The enemy simply kill your pricey lone model with AP2/counter-assault, then you're down a chunk of points and a lot of threat potential.

OPFOR?

I can already hit anything on the board with the incinerator, it's called shunt moves and jump infantry status. Deepstrike robs me of movement however, which is pants on such a mobile unit.

 

Seconding this.

 

I don't see much use in keeping the NDK in reserve (and necessitating PC use to bring it on exactly when I want it) to DS, when I can just first turn Shunt to literally anywhere on the board I need it to be.

 

But then, this requires a PT, and the thread is about NDKs without one. So...

 

;)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

... that is exactly what a diversion is. You influence the OPFOR's decisions on target priority by forcing a change in the equation via a cheap dreadknight or two. It's not very expensive at all, causes a bit of damage on the drop, and forces the OPFOR to make a decision: abandon the position they are poised to engage and focus on the bulk threat, or dedicate the firepower required to eliminate the dreadknights at the expense of leaving the main assault relatively unscathed?

 

Okay, I'll clarify. Diversions don't work against smart players. Hell, sometimes they don't even work against bad ones, because they don't know how to prioritize. Whenever a unit or tactic doesn't kill anything, the argument that gets thrown out is 'oh but its a diversion'. No, if your unit isn't scoring, it needs to be killing things and projecting threat. Feeding your DK's to an enemy gunline is not that.

 

DK's are not cheap. They start at more than a PsyDread in price (without guns), and all of their upgrades are powerfist price at least, if not more.

 

What position? By your own admission, you are flinging the DK's at the enemy position. No, heavy weapon teams won't just run, they'll stand still and gun you down. Troops won't run either, sitting on the objective is far more important. It's very likely that if you Deepstrike, your opponent will place counter-assault units or screens to deflect the drop. Castling tactics have been in this game since Drop Pod lists were viable, way back in 4th edition.

 

The firepower required to eliminate the DK is the same firepower they'd be using to murder any of our other Heavy choices. You might attract plasma/melta off your Terminators or Knights for a turn, but its an expensive trade. You show up, torch something, then get shot down. I very much doubt you'll kill anything of value.

 

But then, this requires a PT, and the thread is about NDKs without one. So...

 

Well (to get back to the OP), DK's without teleporters aren't really that good. They're by no means bad, but you're really not getting the same kind of damage output and threat range of the teleporter-equipped one. If you just wanna slowly walk around the board shooting things, PsyDreads are far better. If you wanna Deepstrike and catch an enemy backfield unit off-guard, Interceptors would at least be cheaper (I'd still shunt them but hey). Even the Callidus is a better 'diversionary' unit.

[nurglez]

When it comes to using servo skulls it all depends on where you place them, and what your opponent is likely to do. I have placed them out of cover near the enemy to tempt them to rush forward with a unit to get rid of it (he used grots, which while not a threat, are scoring, so I took them out of the game).

 

I always keep a servo skull on my "home objective" if I have one.

 

I also want to state that I rarely use DK's without a PT, but I do feel that DK's have a place without them. It depends on your tactics, army set up, grand strategy roll, mission set up and deployment. While DK's cost more then a psyrifle dread, I dislike psyrifle dreads and rarely use them, while DK's fit my theme (multi wound 2+/5++ spam, if 19 models at 1850 points can be classed as spam :angry: ).

 

If deep striking, you don't have to suicide them. You can drop them in support of one of your squads.

[spartan249]

You obviously don't think I am correct, and that's ok. My experience with DK tactics are my own, YMMV. 75~225 points can buy a lot of extra firepower, which I enjoy sometimes over speed.