New gaming philosophy thanks to new codex

[greatcrusade08]

Can't wait to read the Jeske's assessment of the new units, options and changes....

 

~BtW

Don't worry, I'm sure it will be mostly negative... ;)

 

no the jeske is alot of things, but hes no uncle tom.

he will provide his insight into the efficency and tournament potential of all the units.. if thats your bag hes a good source of info.

if its not, dont pay attention

[the jeske]

I though I already did this the other day . The problem with the dex right now is that without a dual FoC and 2k or more points to play the codex is in many ways just as restricting as it was before . yes we are taking different options [sorc+ other HQ or one HQ if it costs 200+pts] 3 troops[went up in cost if we are talking about csm] and havocks instead of oblits . That is the problem with the new chao dex . One on one some of the options did get better . But it is hard to talk about viability of lets say raptors when there is no way to fit them in to a list , because points are so hard to get in the new dex. Same with other HQs . When I saw the dark mechy the first time I realy wanted to play with him , droping cover , ok gear . what is not to like about him . then I noticed he was HQ and not elite , same as the dark chapy . It doesnt matter what they do with 2 HQ slots , I can only fit a sorc and someone else in to the list and given choice between a killer HQ and a buffer I always take the killer.

 

Now that of course doesnt mean that there are no new things worth considering . For example 3 bikers are going to be used a lot , because they are cheap[a lot cheaper then raptors] and because people are going to be using bike nurlge mace lords.

havocks are a must have now , but their rise in cost means that either we have to play a pure gunline [iG and SW do it better] with nurgle PMs MSU used as troops or we run only 2 units of havocks and run in to problems with av14 or we try to play a mix of units [oblits/havocks/fiends] , but then we cant realy deal with more dedicted flyer or gunline armies .

 

In the end we are probably going to end up with foot swarms being played with mass havocks MSU and praying the rolls for infilatrion will be high .

 

I dont remember If I mentioned our flyer . I dont like it , not because of the model . But because trying to melee flyers is a stupid tactic and he is runing with a single bs 3 gun . And it costs 170 pts which is 40 pts more then a IG flyer. Now to use the dragon as an actual anti flyer we would have to use 2 minimum[and we still would be out guned] . 2 dragons is 340pts thats 80pts more then IG pays for theirs , now if our codex was the one with ultra cheap stuff it would be ok for list that are ment for "fun". But our codex isnt cheap , we arent GK who can go cheap and effective , we pay for everything [in many cases too much] . the points for 2 flyers just arent there . which is sad considering this is the psyker/flyer edition .

 

but again this is all for what is played in the euro zone [still 1500]. If someone happens to play where 2k is the minimum points played then sky is the limit . 2 fiends .2 havocks 1 sorc 1 fateweaver some PMS and horrors army for 2250 worked awesome for me . It was like playing a GK henchman build without cortez rules , lots of fun .

[Excessus]

Can't wait to read the Jeske's assessment of the new units, options and changes....

 

~BtW

Don't worry, I'm sure it will be mostly negative... ;)

 

no the jeske is alot of things, but hes no uncle tom.

he will provide his insight into the efficency and tournament potential of all the units.. if thats your bag hes a good source of info.

if its not, dont pay attention

Colour me sceptical until we see some actual tournament results...

[space wolf]

I for one was thinking of kitting out my reg CSM, but now that I look at it, this book seems a lot like the IG book. You have to be VERY careful with what upgrades you choose, otherwise you will waste points. I'm thinking cheaper CSM squads now...

[the jeske]

yes but how cheap do you want to be . If you dont take ultra grit and/or veteran/icon/marks then you have tacticals marines without ATKNF with less Ld . 180 pts for a squad of those seems to be "cheap" until you notice that a unit of SW GH with ultra grit counter attack ATKNF costs less with same upgrades . And SW can run superior slogger builds[not that it is the only option for them] , just because of the fact that they have double FoC HQs and possible teq tankers in each GH unit in the form of WG. Now this no way means that am telling you that the chaos dex is crap and you should play SW , but that the way of "ill just take bare bone csm and tailor squads to specific jobs" is not point efficient out of the new dex .

 

If the new dex shows us anything then it is the fact that GW realy wants the basic game to be 2k pts . People may not like it , but I can tell you that the eldar dex and all other dex coming after it will look the same way . Played at 1500 pts they will feel boring or not very special . Many people had that expiriance when playing the new chaos dex . At 1500 pts it feels like the gav dex with slightly different units . when you play more then 2k pts it suddenly becomes a good codex. Which is sad for a lot of euro players , because games here , specialy the tournament ones sit at 1500pts.

 

*face palm* I just preached about GH to a SW player . feeling like a moron now .

[Smurfalypse]

yes but how cheap do you want to be . If you dont take ultra grit and/or veteran/icon/marks then you have tacticals marines without ATKNF with less Ld . 180 pts for a squad of those seems to be "cheap" until you notice that a unit of SW GH with ultra grit counter attack ATKNF costs less with same upgrades . And SW can run superior slogger builds[not that it is the only option for them] , just because of the fact that they have double FoC HQs and possible teq tankers in each GH unit in the form of WG. Now this no way means that am telling you that the chaos dex is crap and you should play SW , but that the way of "ill just take bare bone csm and tailor squads to specific jobs" is not point efficient out of the new dex .

 

If the new dex shows us anything then it is the fact that GW realy wants the basic game to be 2k pts . People may not like it , but I can tell you that the eldar dex and all other dex coming after it will look the same way . Played at 1500 pts they will feel boring or not very special . Many people had that expiriance when playing the new chaos dex . At 1500 pts it feels like the gav dex with slightly different units . when you play more then 2k pts it suddenly becomes a good codex. Which is sad for a lot of euro players , because games here , specialy the tournament ones sit at 1500pts.

 

*face palm* I just preached about GH to a SW player . feeling like a moron now .

 

Not taking a standard vs taking the old IoCG has actually made my unit cheaper than it was previously by 12 total points :)

This includes CCW, VotLW, two special weapons, and a Rhino. Exact same setup i used to use.

[the jeske]

well I can agree with the fact that it was possible to buy 10 csm with IoCG . the question if it was viable to do in 5th and under the gav dex is another . the unit does cost more , because you are not going to run it with IoCG [chaos wrath is it now. at work now and dont have the dex with me] your going to run them with marks . else were are going back to the GH do the same for less points and better gear set up . we are looking at a 250pts squads even when we are no longer buying powerfists for our sgts , and even then we are not taking boons or meltabombs[we should technicly be runing those considering fewer melta run in our armies and lack of fist on champs]. Again I did not say that stuff cant be made cheaper , just that it makes little sense to do so . technicly we could pay 180pts for 2 plasma no ultra grit and a power weapon champ . is it cheaper then the 240+squads of 5th ed ? yes , but it is not a wise thing to do .

[Smurfalypse]

I don't see how the possessed don't have tools against vehicles nowadays smurf. Most vehicles have 3 HP so that means 3 glances and they are dead, and with the possesseds S5 and 3A on the charge(or 4, depending on roll), that vehicle is not going to keep rolling/shooting for long. Walkers are a problem, but they have been a problem for possessed always! Nowadays we get to buy two rolls on the boon table at least, and we can perhaps get something useful!

 

 

In other news, the codex seems to be a lot more fun to play with than the old one, that's for sure! I don't know where we will end up in the meta yet, but I am loving it!

 

Yeah more talking about Land Raiders and Walkers, a Walker locks them up and kills off your 300 point unit with no hope of getting out or killing it. They were a problem last edition except if you had furious charge or rending (1/3rd chance when the game started). The main issue is going at initiative 1 vs an opponent in cover (which SHOULD be most people you assault), that is unacceptable for a unit that is obviously a designated light infantry killer.

 

I will try them out, lord knows i have enough of them painted up to not use them. But I know my possessed, and these are bad times :)

 

Please do not take me as bitching, I am really digging the rest of this Codex. It is literally them and the Daemon Prince that MUST take a "mark" from a god (I know it isn't technically a mark, but it basically is).

 

Nowadays we get to buy two rolls on the boon table at least, and we can perhaps get something useful!

 

ONLY the Champion can get the two rolls, not so useful for 20 points in my opinion.

Well, infantry in general isn't that hot against walkers and LRs. I can't think of any regular infantry squad that will reliably take down a LR in melee, apart from termies that is. But we were comparing to the last codex, were we not? In that comparison there would be no LRs or walkers either, because they sucked bigtime against them last edition too. I would even say that they have a better chance against walkers in this edition because of the hull points...

As i said there were two things we could roll up that made them viable vs vehicles, Rending and Furious Charge (FC was only good vs walkers). Now they have zero chance vs a walker and zero chance vs AR12+ on the rear.

 

My only point is that at least before FnP and rending made them scary, now the chart they get is sorta meh. All for no reduction in points. They are 100% the most overpriced unit in the codex, hands down.

 

As for infantry squads not being viable vs walkers in melee, i would NEVER charge my walker into a full unit of marines. The threat of krak grenades and the ever common sgt with a melta bomb ensure that CC is not the place that the walker wants to be. So to say that infantry are not good vs walkers talking from a 5th ed understanding of the rules and not so much a 6th ed. 80% of people take power weapon+meltabomb on the sgt, all MEQ types come with Krak & frag (except the designated CC units for whatever reason, Possessed, Warp Talons).

[Excessus]

Yeah, because my krak grenades have done soo freakishly much against walkers...

 

Sure with krak they can glance on a 6 with one attack each, but if they do more than 1 HP per turn you are lucky, where the dread will kill about 1-2 marines per turn... Then say hello to AV13 walkers, or nowadays, walkers with invulsave and that statistic goes down further...

 

Marines have krak, but there are loads of other infantry out there besides marines...

[space wolf]

*face palm* I just preached about GH to a SW player . feeling like a moron now .

 

This made me laugh. Don't worry about it, I'm often in disguise :P

 

As far as cheap squads go I mean, 13pts per model cheap. kit them out with plasmas, and away they go. Play them like Guard Veterans, they are only there for the firepower...

[Verythrax Draconis]

I'm considering using 2 units of havocs, one stationary with 4 missile launchers shooting from distance, with maybe a MoN to buff them. Dunno if I should fill the rest with Lascannons as well.

 

The second one maybe I'll give 4 flamers and meltaguns, and put them on a Rhino, to burn infantry and/or vehicles.

[Iron Sage]

Can't wait to read the Jeske's assessment of the new units, options and changes....

 

~BtW

Don't worry, I'm sure it will be mostly negative... :D

 

Well I very much appreciate the Jeske. I have been a lurker and "user" on this forum for very, very many years. I can tell you that even though I personally will never play the lists jeske often advocates, I have learned a lot from reading him, which is also why my first post on this forum happened to thank him (he probably never saw that one though ).

 

Anyway, thats enough flowers for now..

[minigun762]

The jeske: I normally try to play 1500, but I'll switch it up occasionally.

I don't have the codex yet but from rumors and hearsay, I think I'll be able to fit 1x HQ, 3x Troops and 2-3x units from the other slots.

Big things I'm debating currently is how many rhinos, if any, too take and whether or not skyfire havocs are auto includes.

[Iron Sage]

yes but how cheap do you want to be . If you dont take ultra grit and/or veteran/icon/marks then you have tacticals marines without ATKNF with less Ld . 180 pts for a squad of those seems to be "cheap" until you notice that a unit of SW GH with ultra grit counter attack ATKNF costs less with same upgrades . And SW can run superior slogger builds[not that it is the only option for them] , just because of the fact that they have double FoC HQs and possible teq tankers in each GH unit in the form of WG. Now this no way means that am telling you that the chaos dex is crap and you should play SW , but that the way of "ill just take bare bone csm and tailor squads to specific jobs" is not point efficient out of the new dex .

 

If the new dex shows us anything then it is the fact that GW realy wants the basic game to be 2k pts . People may not like it , but I can tell you that the eldar dex and all other dex coming after it will look the same way . Played at 1500 pts they will feel boring or not very special . Many people had that expiriance when playing the new chaos dex . At 1500 pts it feels like the gav dex with slightly different units . when you play more then 2k pts it suddenly becomes a good codex. Which is sad for a lot of euro players , because games here , specialy the tournament ones sit at 1500pts.

 

*face palm* I just preached about GH to a SW player . feeling like a moron now .

 

I am not an expert. But I have to say that after skimming the codex a few times, I am delighted. What I truly hated in the Thorpe dex was the dumbed down streamlining and lack of options. This new codex has a lot of options. Also, I am so delighted that there are more than just a few viable choices. This means that some units will be weak in some builds but strong in others where they have synergy. I think this is a vast improvement. Also, our HQs are just a million times more interesting.

You are of course correct in that we have to pay for everything though. But IMO thats how it should be. I think we will eventually see a lot of builds that have variety and are still effective. That for me is golden and makes the game more interesting.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Something I found odd is that the Icon of Vengeance would be an option on Possessed for 5 points...they already have fearless so why pay 5 points to carry a cool looking stick around???

 

Because all Icons also grant +1 to your combat resolution score in assaults; in effect, you count as scoring one extra wound every round.

[Smurfalypse]

Yeah, because my krak grenades have done soo freakishly much against walkers...

 

Sure with krak they can glance on a 6 with one attack each, but if they do more than 1 HP per turn you are lucky, where the dread will kill about 1-2 marines per turn... Then say hello to AV13 walkers, or nowadays, walkers with invulsave and that statistic goes down further...

 

Marines have krak, but there are loads of other infantry out there besides marines...

 

Ive killed a few walkers with Krak so far, also other infantry...Like stuff with haywire from Eldar, D.Eldar, or Tau? There is not much that is completely useless vs a walker in CC, Warp Talons/Possessed are 100% useless vs them. Scary thought for such a high price tag, if they were 6pts less each, i wouldnt are but at their current listings it is very hard to justify taking them. You add the lack of assault grenades on top of it and you get a very lackluster unit.

 

Just my opinion.

[Feste]

Ive killed a few walkers with Krak so far, also other infantry...Like stuff with haywire from Eldar, D.Eldar, or Tau? There is not much that is completely useless vs a walker in CC, Warp Talons/Possessed are 100% useless vs them. Scary thought for such a high price tag, if they were 6pts less each, i wouldnt are but at their current listings it is very hard to justify taking them. You add the lack of assault grenades on top of it and you get a very lackluster unit.

 

Just my opinion.

Don't Possessed have a Rending option in their table? Along with the 5++ it makes them not entirely useless against Walkers; it's not a great idea to base an attack around, but might be worth it in a pinch.

[Smurfalypse]

well I can agree with the fact that it was possible to buy 10 csm with IoCG . the question if it was viable to do in 5th and under the gav dex is another . the unit does cost more , because you are not going to run it with IoCG [chaos wrath is it now. at work now and dont have the dex with me] your going to run them with marks . else were are going back to the GH do the same for less points and better gear set up . we are looking at a 250pts squads even when we are no longer buying powerfists for our sgts , and even then we are not taking boons or meltabombs[we should technicly be runing those considering fewer melta run in our armies and lack of fist on champs]. Again I did not say that stuff cant be made cheaper , just that it makes little sense to do so . technicly we could pay 180pts for 2 plasma no ultra grit and a power weapon champ . is it cheaper then the 240+squads of 5th ed ? yes , but it is not a wise thing to do .

 

Was talking about the exact same setup I took from the previous dex to the new dex, minus the IoCG. Even if I took the new banner, it would only come out about 5pts more than it did before.

[Sception]

Don't Possessed have a Rending option in their table? Along with the 5++ it makes them not entirely useless against Walkers; it's not a great idea to base an attack around, but might be worth it in a pinch.

No, they don't. It's a d3 table for shred, +1 attack, or AP3

[Iron Sage]

Possessed random table is much better than previously, except against walkers...

Note: I didnt say Possessed were good.

[Vilicate]

After reading the book, there are some things that stick out:

 

The Black Maul is amazing. Totally worth the points; I'll be taking it on an HQ pretty much every game. It really helps to thin out some of the non multiwound DeathStar units (re: TH/SS Terminators), or those huge Guard blobs. Roughly 7.5 attacks each turn from a sorcerer (or 8.5 from a chaos lord), which wound on 2's, and then you get to nuke every model within 3", even if they bog you down with challenges. And no saves. That's sick.

 

The Lord of Deception warlord trait is amazing. The special characters that have it automatically are both very good; Ahriman for obvious reasons, and Huron is great for his points cost; having a character that hits very hard at I with AP3 or having the option to switch to AP2 and going last is nice. But the warlord trait allows for some sick combos. My friend and I have been discussing team tournament lists now, and we're of the same mindset - dealing with 20 infiltrating berserkers with Khârn or Abbadon is going to be rough for anyone. Or a full squad of terminators, or or or. There's a lot of options here, and it has the potential to turn a foot slogging army into something very fast, with a profusion of beasts (Maulerfiends, Spawn), cheap effective bikers and cheap Jump Infantry (Raptors). This army is probably the most viable assault army in 40k right now.

 

Havocs are fairly good for their point costs - it's nice being able to take some anti-air in an army without being totally screwed against everything else.

 

Raptors are well worth their points. I'm thinking they'll be an excellent harassment unit, and a good way to get get characters across the board fast. A unit of 15 is going to be hard to stop, especially with the FnP icon.

 

I honestly think all the fast attack choices are good; and I'll be taking a unit from each of the categories. And I'm not convinced that Possessed are actually bad; they've got a lot of really nice abilities that help out assault units, and throw out a lot of S5 attacks. I'm going to run a decent sized unit with the MoS and Icon to see how they work. I predict they'll do better than most people think.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

The problem I'm running into is that I'm a Tzeentch-first player, and the only units (aside from HQs) that get any serious benefit from MoT are already expensive -- Terminators, Talons, and Possessed. Possessed and Talons both suffer from a debilitating weakness as assault units: no grenades. Marked units like that cost a lot and although have good hitting power, they'll suffer from going last in assaults.

[Iron Sage]

After reading the book, there are some things that stick out:

 

The Black Maul is amazing. Totally worth the points; I'll be taking it on an HQ pretty much every game. It really helps to thin out some of the non multiwound DeathStar units (re: TH/SS Terminators), or those huge Guard blobs. Roughly 7.5 attacks each turn from a sorcerer (or 8.5 from a chaos lord), which wound on 2's, and then you get to nuke every model within 3", even if they bog you down with challenges. And no saves. That's sick.

 

The Lord of Deception warlord trait is amazing. The special characters that have it automatically are both very good; Ahriman for obvious reasons, and Huron is great for his points cost; having a character that hits very hard at I with AP3 or having the option to switch to AP2 and going last is nice. But the warlord trait allows for some sick combos. My friend and I have been discussing team tournament lists now, and we're of the same mindset - dealing with 20 infiltrating berserkers with Khârn or Abbadon is going to be rough for anyone. Or a full squad of terminators, or or or. There's a lot of options here, and it has the potential to turn a foot slogging army into something very fast, with a profusion of beasts (Maulerfiends, Spawn), cheap effective bikers and cheap Jump Infantry (Raptors). This army is probably the most viable assault army in 40k right now.

 

Havocs are fairly good for their point costs - it's nice being able to take some anti-air in an army without being totally screwed against everything else.

 

Raptors are well worth their points. I'm thinking they'll be an excellent harassment unit, and a good way to get get characters across the board fast. A unit of 15 is going to be hard to stop, especially with the FnP icon.

 

I honestly think all the fast attack choices are good; and I'll be taking a unit from each of the categories. And I'm not convinced that Possessed are actually bad; they've got a lot of really nice abilities that help out assault units, and throw out a lot of S5 attacks. I'm going to run a decent sized unit with the MoS and Icon to see how they work. I predict they'll do better than most people think.

 

I agree.

As for Possessed will have it tough without grenades I fear. Warp Talons can do without though, since they can pin point deep strike with the key etc.

 

All in all, codex is fantastically exciting and opens up a myriad of possibillities. Way more than we had before. Its fun when even spawns have synergy with certain lists, haha!

[Iron Sage]

The problem I'm running into is that I'm a Tzeentch-first player, and the only units (aside from HQs) that get any serious benefit from MoT are already expensive -- Terminators, Talons, and Possessed. Possessed and Talons both suffer from a debilitating weakness as assault units: no grenades. Marked units like that cost a lot and although have good hitting power, they'll suffer from going last in assaults.

 

I think lack of grenades on the Warp Talons are not so serious compared to possessed. Its faster and can deep strike and therefore you can choose your targets and more importantly, the angle of approach to a certain degree.

[Sception]

Still hurts, especially for their fairly monstrous points cost and complete lack of ranged attacks. Tzeentch is an okay mark - for characters and terminators, but other than that, this is not a good time to be playing tzeentch aligned marines. Daemons, sure, but not marines.