Iron Father Ferrum Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 So I'm stuck and I'd like to hear the opinions of others. I want to take a jumping Lord, but I can't decide between the Axe of Blind Fury or the Murder Sword (if I do take the Sword, I'll also be taking MoT and the Sigil for a 3++). For a retinue, I also cannot decide between Tzeentch-marked Talons or Khorne-marked Raptors. The Talons have the Daemon rule, so MoT will give them extra survivability with a 4++. MoK Raptors will not have armor-defeating hits like the Talons but will throw a metric ton of attacks on the charge. All told, I think the Talons have it thanks to AP3, Shred, and 4++, but I figured I'd ask what the group thought of either build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 I like idea of a small talons escort for your IC. MoTz will help provide some decent bullet sponges and the claws make you s threat to most infanty and even some MCs. I see raptors more as tank busters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Sage Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 I dont know, minigun. They are now so cheap that you can maybe afford to have a unit dedicated to flying around, torching stuff. Heh, both units are just awesome now (everything in FA is awesome for some peculiar reason), and I can see many ways to use both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Axe of Blind Fury is only for Khorne, just to point out. On that note, if you want someone to go straight into the combat, I would think Warp Talons. Drop him in with them and everything since they seem to be completely geared to close combat. Raptors seem like a get-in-get-out support unit, whether it be for close combat, anti-infantry or anti-armor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfalypse Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Depends on what you want that units role to be. If you want a pure infantry killing squad and you have the points, 100% go with the Warp Talons. If you want a unit that can handle both vehicles well and units (though not as nasty as the Talons) I would go with Raptors. Also you can field Raptors in units of 15, so some extra wounds in case you need them :blush: As far as the weapon goes, both are really good. I have been thinking of doing the same thing since I do not run marks in my army and Daemon Princes must be dedicated to one of the Gods. Was leaning toward a Lord with The Black Mace (as a Word Bearer player I am already in love with this thing) and melta bombs. A unit of 15 Raptors with two melta guns and the Champ with a power maul and melta bombs. :lol: I am thinking the Raptors are gonna be good for so cheap, am falling for them without even playing em yet :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Lord with jump pack and murder sword, hehe, time to go character-hunting! :blush: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted October 3, 2012 Author Share Posted October 3, 2012 I'm trying desperately hard not to take two units of five Raptors a piece. Their special weapon numbers have no unit size requirement, nor do they swap either their pistol for chainsword for them, so a power sword on the champ and a pair of meltas make for a reasonably cheap deep-striking tank hunting unit that can also bash some faces in in melee. Thinking about a Mark, too, but for such small units, you'd want to keep them relatively cheap... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 All depends what you want them for. If you want two anti-tanks support squads, go for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 I dont know, minigun. They are now so cheap that you can maybe afford to have a unit dedicated to flying around, torching stuff. You mean the raptors? Thats what I was suggesting, playing the raptors as hunters/killers and not IC escorts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith Aznable Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 So far I think the Warp Talons are a little underwhelming. They get their one chance to jump out and scream "ooga booga" and that's it. So they can appear out of nowhere and maybe blind a unit next to them, but they can't assault from deep strike, can they? So there's a decent chance that whomever they jump out next to (if they haven't scattered) will be able to gun them down. 50-50 vs MEQ, right? Somebody tell me I'm not understanding this correctly, please. I really hoped they'd get to warp shunt or summat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted October 3, 2012 Author Share Posted October 3, 2012 Nope, that's it, Max. I'm trying to build a list with 'em, and while their points-expense iss dissuading me from a full unit, I'm still looking at about seven or eight of them plus my winged lord. Then again, if I ever roll the Infiltrate Warlord Trait, I'll pass on the "BOO!" strike and just jump them into melee turn Two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith Aznable Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 I'm trying to build a list with 'em, and while their points-expense is dissuading me from a full unit, I'm still looking at about seven or eight of them plus my winged lord. I've already got my conversion laid out for them, so I'm going to do 5 anyway, but I don't see myself employing them an awful lot. The Raptors seem more versatile and are definitely cheaper, with the bonus that I've already got a squad of 10 ready. And about that winged lord. It looks like it's all just counts-as jump packs from now on, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 You can't take the sigil on a lord, it's just for Dark Apostles to give them a 4++ to match loyalist chappies. That said, if you must take jump troops I would say that Tz are better as they will have a better chance at surviving plasma, though if you were to take MoK raptors you should probably just move them up using cover and not deep strike them. Deep striking assault units that don't have heroic intervention tends to end badly in most cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted October 3, 2012 Author Share Posted October 3, 2012 You can't take the sigil on a lord, it's just for Dark Apostles to give them a 4++ to match loyalist chappies. That said, if you must take jump troops I would say that Tz are better as they will have a better chance at surviving plasma, though if you were to take MoK raptors you should probably just move them up using cover and not deep strike them. Deep striking assault units that don't have heroic intervention tends to end badly in most cases. In point of fact, no. Under the Chaos Lord entry, it says that you may take any item from the Special Issue Wargear list. Under the Special Issue Wargear list is the Sigil of Corruption. So a Sigiled MoT Lord has a 3++ and can still take two weapons. Eat your heart out, Codex: Space Marines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Oh wow you're right. I stand corrected, good catch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redbaron997 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 I prefer Raptors, I like the anti-tank versitility and that they are cheaper. Now here is my question: If you were not going for a theme would you prefer to have MOK or MOS on a unit of 10 Raptors? I would normally say MOS but not with Hammer of Wrath you will have some high initiative attacks anyways so maybe the extra charge attacks are worth it? On the other hand MOK is only good for charge turn while MOS would help more in extended combat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 HoW attacks are in general not worth it and they dont stack with mark of S for raptors as it is not their base I[now if NM could take jump packs those would be i5] . raptors are cheap , but most other stuff costs a lot more now , I sadly dont find the points to run them in chaos armies . It is not that they are bad , they are ok , but I would sooner buy more havocks or a second or third HQ before I would even think about buying raptors . the talons suffer from the "power armored elite hth units" syndrom . not only was assault nerfed in 6th , but they also die rather easily in 6th ed from shoting . now if they had divine intervention like venguard or shrouding on the turn they landed or all my opponents would castel up then they would be ok for fun lists . So all in all if anything taken then raptors and then one has to remember that it is a big sacrifice [probably of having not enough anti flyer]. the real sad part about raptors in the 6th is that with the new chaos dex it is actualy very viable to make a csm horde list with better treat range due to changes in rapid fire . Before someone jumps on me for the better thing , the better I understand more reliable then a random charge range the raptors have . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Huh? HoW is at I10 at the models unmodified S-value...MoS have nothing to do with it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Willy Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Either way hammer isn't so good unless your really lucky and get stuck in with a full squad, but oddly it really helps on the defense, as in counter-charge units, so is at the least useful in that you get a couple extra attacks. Raptors will be my perfered choice as I like the fluff and warp talons will appear for the big apoc games in my local store since they so cool to look at. Then again I m probably gonna have a bit of everything to play around with so whatevs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackmonkey0 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 I'm just gonna dust off my old Khorne Raptors been a while since they saw any action. 8men, Champ with PF, 2xMG and MoK. Now cheaper to field than the 8man Zerker sqd in a rhino that replaced them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Huh? HoW is at I10 at the models unmodified S-value...MoS have nothing to do with it... because they would have one wave of attacks at i10 before strike backs and then another one at i5 . And while technicly you could take raptors with IoS and get the same the problem is that A they are not troops so the points to take them just arent there B you have to take a HQ to babysit them and give them fearless and a jump pack HQs is the worse option in the new dex for an HQ . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Huh? HoW is at I10 at the models unmodified S-value...MoS have nothing to do with it... because they would have one wave of attacks at i10 before strike backs and then another one at i5 . And while technicly you could take raptors with IoS and get the same the problem is that A they are not troops so the points to take them just arent there B you have to take a HQ to babysit them and give them fearless and a jump pack HQs is the worse option in the new dex for an HQ . And I was replying to the part where you said that HoW doesn't stack with MoS, but the additional context that you are giving this time doesn't have anything to do with HoW though. It's an extra attack that just is a small benefit, not something to build a strategy around... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 it doesnt stack with HoW because it doesnt give a tactical adventage . it is not a small buff , but a huge debuff because to get it you have to spend points on a unit which is makes chaos list worse . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Yes, ofc they would pay for the ability, but not as much as a bike that gets it all the time. But that is besides the point, HoW doesn't really matter as to what mark you take, since it's an attack that will happen no matter what. The marks only affect what comes after the HoW attack, it's completely unrelated. Sure, They may not be the pinnacle of assault troops, but their high mobility is quite nice to have in some cases, depending on your list... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panda_ Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 All depends what you want them for. If you want two anti-tanks support squads, go for it. 5 Raptors with 2 Melta were available with Gav. With the Gav dex, Termicide did the same job better cheaper. This is still true. I wonder what will happens to our Termicide as Melta totting Bikers are rumored to be 10% cheaper (with the added Krak's charge as backup). Did anyone wonder about Plasma's bikers ? [Edit] Cleaning post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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