Irbis Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 So, upon reading new Chaos Codex, I saw pretty long bit about Imperial Saint who literally threatens hundreds of Space Marine Chapters, forcing them to prostrate before him, and eventually he finds 30 of them wanting and gives them choice - Crusade into Eye of Terror or death. I thought such a thing would raise more than an eyebrow here, seeing how SM supposedly value their independence? :D Though, the Crusade got me thinking: Besides the fact the guy was Chaos traitor who supposedly sent Chapters he thought corruptible to reinforce Chaos (or the Chapter Master who revealed him fallen to Chaos and killed Imperial Saint - which version you think is true?). Alternatively, what if he picked the least likely to be corrupted Chapters to weaken Imperium - what do you think? What would have happened if Imperium sent 300, not 30 Chapters? Seeing some Marines made it back, would force 10 times as large won some battles smaller force lost? Would they just fall to Chaos, or would sending not-hand-picked Chapters make them less vulnerable to fall? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Colossus Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Uh oh, that sounds weird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malthe Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 It's old fluff, expanded upon in the 6th Ed. BRB. Honestly I liked it better when it was just an intersting footnote... All this stuff about St. Basillius being secretly evil, and thrown into a sun by angry returnees just doesn't sit right with me :) Anyhow, could you perchance be persuaded to quote the bit from the new CSM codex? I don't have the money to buy it before november, and since one of my DIY-chapters is a survivor of the Abyssal Crusade, I'd like to know what other changes I'll have to implement to keep them consistent with current GW fluff :) For what it's worth I always figured the High Lords used St. Basilluis as a tool to get rid of unwanted chapters after Vandire's Reign of Blood and the 2nd Seige of Terra. Seems to me they'd want to secure their position, and Space Marines are no fun to querrel with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irbis Posted October 4, 2012 Author Share Posted October 4, 2012 It's old fluff, expanded upon in the 6th Ed. BRB.Honestly I liked it better when it was just an intersting footnote... All this stuff about St. Basillius being secretly evil, and thrown into a sun by angry returnees just doesn't sit right with me :lol: But was he evil? Or the returnee? :P Anyhow, could you perchance be persuaded to quote the bit from the new CSM codex?I don't have the money to buy it before november, and since one of my DIY-chapters is a survivor of the Abyssal Crusade, I'd like to know what other changes I'll have to implement to keep them consistent with current GW fluff :) Um, that 'bit' is four pages long, including pictures and list of 31 Chapters fallen to Chaos/Lost in Crusade... If you want it, I guess can make photo? For what it's worth I always figured the High Lords used St. Basilluis as a tool to get rid of unwanted chapters after Vandire's Reign of Blood and the 2nd Seige of Terra.Seems to me they'd want to secure their position, and Space Marines are no fun to querrel with. Well, if they did it, that Warp Storm that served as pretext to purge was sure convenient as were other things that happened at the same time. Still, why not send them against Tau or something? Why Eye? That Chapter claims renegade attacks on Cadia Sector due to that whole fiasco suddenly jumped in strength and frequency, if Lords planned that they picked worst possible way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verythrax Draconis Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 For what it's worth I always figured the High Lords used St. Basilluis as a tool to get rid of unwanted chapters after Vandire's Reign of Blood and the 2nd Seige of Terra.Seems to me they'd want to secure their position, and Space Marines are no fun to querrel with. As much as I think it's better than actual codex version, 30 chapters is a LOT of stuff. If the High Lords would send them as punishment/get rid of them, they would try something more subtle... besides, sending them to the Eye risks to get them renegade (as it happened) - what it's a lot less funnier to quarrel with. With a 30 chapter strong force, you can fight back any Black Crusade, I guess. I think they would try something with less chances of winning. Long story short, as much as stupid the codex version is (like the whole Soul Drinkers chapelains corp bending down to a a ragged preacher), it seems more feasible to me, otherwise why risk that much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 The codex states that St Basillius was Chaos corrupted and that he threw the chapters into a penitent crusade into the Eye, which turned into a "Hey, Chaos is awesome, let's join them" pretty quick. The list shows of the 30 chapters (called the Judged), 1 went perditas, 1 is pending, 2 got totally annihilated and 25 turned to Chaos. The pending one is the Blades Eternal chapter, and I guess the one that got out more or less ok is the Vorpal Swords chapter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verythrax Draconis Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 The pending one is the Blades Eternal chapter, and I guess the one that got out more or less ok is the Vorpal Swords chapter. What is almost as suspect as the saint himself - c'mon, they come ot of the Eye after 800 YEARS and everybody just believe that they aren't corrupted, and believe in their accusation, destroying all the monuments and such for a famous saint? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Foes Remain Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 The pending one is the Blades Eternal chapter, and I guess the one that got out more or less ok is the Vorpal Swords chapter. What is almost as suspect as the saint himself - c'mon, they come ot of the Eye after 800 YEARS and everybody just believe that they aren't corrupted, and believe in their accusation, destroying all the monuments and such for a famous saint? With the tides of the warp screwing up time it could be 800 years for the imperium but only a few months or less for the space marine chapters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verythrax Draconis Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 The pending one is the Blades Eternal chapter, and I guess the one that got out more or less ok is the Vorpal Swords chapter. What is almost as suspect as the saint himself - c'mon, they come ot of the Eye after 800 YEARS and everybody just believe that they aren't corrupted, and believe in their accusation, destroying all the monuments and such for a famous saint? With the tides of the warp screwing up time it could be 800 years for the imperium but only a few months or less for the space marine chapters. OK, but the claim that they purged 400 worlds? Seems more like a lie to make them sound good to the ears of the Imperium. And they are the ONLY chapter to come out - why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Foes Remain Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 The pending one is the Blades Eternal chapter, and I guess the one that got out more or less ok is the Vorpal Swords chapter. What is almost as suspect as the saint himself - c'mon, they come ot of the Eye after 800 YEARS and everybody just believe that they aren't corrupted, and believe in their accusation, destroying all the monuments and such for a famous saint? With the tides of the warp screwing up time it could be 800 years for the imperium but only a few months or less for the space marine chapters. OK, but the claim that they purged 400 worlds? Seems more like a lie to make them sound good to the ears of the Imperium. And they are the ONLY chapter to come out - why? Maybe they were more strong willed than the other chapters, I doubt we'll know unless BL does a book on them. And the 400 worlds doesn't seem realistic, I grant you and since they were in the warp they only had the marines they entered in and were unable to bolster their strength. But they may have resorted to exterminartus on some of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verythrax Draconis Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Maybe they were more strong willed than the other chapters, I doubt we'll know unless BL does a book on them. I know, and in fact I don't want an answer :) I'm just pointing that seems like that story was written with that in mind - there's no black on white truth, only shades of gray. That's the idea, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 You'll notice an inconsistency in the list of chapters. The Doom Legion is listed as going traitor but they are currently a loyal chapter in Codex SM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verythrax Draconis Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 You'll notice an inconsistency in the list of chapters. The Doom Legion is listed as going traitor but they are currently a loyal chapter in Codex SM. If they are listing them under their loyal name, I see no problem - they all were loyal before going traitor, right? You can model any renegade chapter as a Codex SM chapter in their original color, if you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 You'll notice an inconsistency in the list of chapters. The Doom Legion is listed as going traitor but they are currently a loyal chapter in Codex SM. Well, now they're the Vectors of Pox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Foes Remain Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 That inconsistency might be rectefied in the SM 6th ed 'dex whenever its released. Maybe they were more strong willed than the other chapters, I doubt we'll know unless BL does a book on them. I know, and in fact I don't want an answer :( I'm just pointing that seems like that story was written with that in mind - there's no black on white truth, only shades of gray. That's the idea, IMO. The Imperium in a nutshell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 That inconsistency might be rectefied in the SM 6th ed 'dex whenever its released. Maybe they were more strong willed than the other chapters, I doubt we'll know unless BL does a book on them. I know, and in fact I don't want an answer :( I'm just pointing that seems like that story was written with that in mind - there's no black on white truth, only shades of gray. That's the idea, IMO. The Imperium in a nutshell. Or it's a retcon. I'd love to see a paint scheme for the Vectors of Pox. Could be so friggin awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verythrax Draconis Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 I'd love to see a paint scheme for the Vectors of Pox. Could be so friggin awesome. Haha, using MKV armor would save a lot of time modelling :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamwulf Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Hey! I heard Phil Kelly wrote this codex, not Matt Ward! Nice to hear about new fluff though. Tired of reading about Abaddon's failed Crusades. <_< :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Technically his crusades didn't fail because he achieved his objectives in every single one, from claiming his demon sword to breaking open the Cadian Gate. And I think it was a bit of all the above. He probably used to some Chaotic warp psykery to mutate the Chapters so they would have a reason to be purged. That gave cause for a Penitent Crusade, which is usually a death sentence for a Chapter anyways. And then when the Chapters volunteered to go into the Eye, that just made it all better. And as the description read, before they even entered the Eye, they started encountering fierce resistance. To me, the account gives the impression that there more CSM in the Eye than even the Imperium believes is there. Either that or the Codex dealt a bigger blow to the Loyalists SM than has been realized. Combine that with the fact that they were fighting on planets that were killing them... Well personally I don't believe that increasing the numbers will actually make a difference other than the Imperial forces will last longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 You'll notice an inconsistency in the list of chapters. The Doom Legion is listed as going traitor but they are currently a loyal chapter in Codex SM. Well, now they're the Vectors of Pox. No, "Now" they are Doom Legion. The current SM codex is the current timeline. The 13th Black Crusade has just started. My take is the listing was concocted by Basillas and the Doom Legion took back their name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 You'll notice an inconsistency in the list of chapters. The Doom Legion is listed as going traitor but they are currently a loyal chapter in Codex SM. Well, now they're the Vectors of Pox. No, "Now" they are Doom Legion. The current SM codex is the current timeline. The 13th Black Crusade has just started. Retconed. Just like the 13th BC. Vectors of Pox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucien Eilam Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 If the Vorpal Swords Chapter Master returned with the remnants of "some" of the Chapters, who were then found to be innocent, it stands to reason that there were Traitors and Loyalists in several of those Chapters. The loyal Doom Legion are the Doom Legion. The traitor Doom Legion are the Vectors of Pox. No inconsistency necessary. 800 years is plenty of time for those who fell to gain a reputation outside the Eye before the Loyalists got back to clear their names. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Could be a decent explanation, even if the codex just says that the Doom Legion is now the Vectors of Pox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 I just take it as "Those who fell from these Chapters became these Warbands." Some Chapters fell in their entirety, some only lost a good portion of their Numbers. Another explanation is that there are two Chapters known as the "Doom Legion" just as there are two Chapters known as the Emperor's Swords and two Warbands known as the Skulltakers. It's happened before, why not again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan the Lurker Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 The codex states that St Basillius was Chaos corrupted and that he threw the chapters into a penitent crusade into the Eye, which turned into a "Hey, Chaos is awesome, let's join them" pretty quick. The list shows of the 30 chapters (called the Judged), 1 went perditas, 1 is pending, 2 got totally annihilated and 25 turned to Chaos.The pending one is the Blades Eternal chapter, and I guess the one that got out more or less ok is the Vorpal Swords chapter. The problem here is that clearly not all those Chapters are "Chaos". They were given an Excommunicate Designation but there is fluff from later days (M41 vs. M37) showing these Chapters clearly serving the Imperium. The Doom Legion and Sentinels for example. There are other places in the book where info contradicts later fluff, such as the Silver Guard being listed as Renegades in M34 but fighting as loyalist during the Sabbat Worlds Crusade (M41). So it is either a case of "reused name" as the Insignium Astartes suggests happens at times or it is remnants of these Chapters being loyalist and restoring the Chapters to full strength. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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