Rain Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 This book seems to have quite a few of direct though somewhat minor retcons. For example, it says that the Lords of Decay are a traitor chapter that turned during the Abyssal Crusade whereas Siege of Vraks says that they are a Death Guard faction that serves and fights with Mortarion himself (as opposed to Typhus). Further, it says that the Flawless Host were also originally a loyalist chapter when previous fluff stated them to be a company of Emperor's Children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Well, Siege of Vraks is Forgeworld Territory. Siege of Vraks also said that the Skulltakers were a World Eaters offshoot even though it was already established to be the Berzerkers of Kharadon. I believe the general consensus for fluff Heirarchy is GW, Forgeworld, and then BL. Personally, one is as good as the other. The Flawless Host, I'm not sure where it said that they were a company of the Emperor's Children, but I do know that in the Gavdex, they had a little picture that said "Emperor's Children Gene-seed Markers". It's reasonable that they drew some EC Noise Marines to their sides and that it is merely a coincidence that the only bodies studied by the Imperium were the Noise Marines or one of a million other reasons such as the Host now gets its gene-seed from Fabius Bile and he uses EC gene-seed. EDIT: On a side note, I notice how the Vorpal Swords are the only Chapter to not have any Traitors. I wonder if they actually did turn Traitor and killed the Saint to weaken the Imperium... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Now that I think of it, the "reused name" thingy is a pretty cool idea to solve the thing and I really see the imperium doing that, with the whole historical revision it runs at a daily basis. I am satisfied. And Rain's right, there are some minor retcons. But as I see it, for the Flawless Host, at least, I'm fine with it, as they got at least some background. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 No, they were explicitly stated as an EC splinter group. I think it was in an article on the GW website along with a painted up EC sorceror lord back when the plastic Chaos terminator set came out. Oh and FW is canon as far as I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 No, they were explicitly stated as an EC splinter group. I think it was in an article on the GW website along with a painted up EC sorceror lord back when the plastic Chaos terminator set came out. Oh and FW is canon as far as I know. For sure, not denying all of that at all. Just sayin' that the "previous" Flawless Host background was quite thin. Now, at least they got something a bit more consistent. Weird for the Lords of Decay, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 I don't consider any of it canon. BL, FW, GW, none of it.It was once fact that Periclitor was a Night Lord. A GW-stated fact. Forgeworld made him a Word Bearer. It was a GW-stated fact that the Skulltakers were the Berzerkers of Kharadon. Forgeworld made them a World Eaters offshoot. Since there are retcons and side facts and mirror-fluff all over the place, I don't consider any of it "canon". At all. It is all fluff to me. Not canon. At all. Ironically, I don't think I've ever seen BL do a fluff retcon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinsanity Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Considering the size of the imperium do we really have to consider every fluff inconsistencies as 'retcon'? Seriously? I mean just here on earth, with a mere few dozen centuries of recorded history we have missing or fragmented records, inconsistencies and probably a fair bit of fabricated lies in what is considered factual history. Considering the size of the imperium, their inconsistent use of technology, the agendas - political or otherwise - of everyone it contains or who orbits around it, how could we not expect errors to slip in once in a while and spread like a cancer? Can't remember if I just made this up at one point or actually did look into it before, but IIRC the Apocrypha of Davos says there were what, 23 UM second founding chapters, yet over the years and the different 'retcons' there seems to have been more than 23 that were tagged as such; that would not be a retcon, just poor clerical work (not surprising considering transcription work would be done by lobotomised servitors)... :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Considering the size of the imperium do we really have to consider every fluff inconsistencies as 'retcon'? Seriously? I mean just here on earth, with a mere few dozen centuries of recorded history we have missing or fragmented records, inconsistencies and probably a fair bit of fabricated lies in what is considered factual history. Considering the size of the imperium, their inconsistent use of technology, the agendas - political or otherwise - of everyone it contains or who orbits around it, how could we not expect errors to slip in once in a while and spread like a cancer? Can't remember if I just made this up at one point or actually did look into it before, but IIRC the Apocrypha of Davos says there were what, 23 UM second founding chapters, yet over the years and the different 'retcons' there seems to have been more than 23 that were tagged as such; that would not be a retcon, just poor clerical work (not surprising considering transcription work would be done by lobotomised servitors)... :lol: That is actually a valid point I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan the Lurker Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 I don't consider any of it canon. BL, FW, GW, none of it.It was once fact that Periclitor was a Night Lord. A GW-stated fact. Forgeworld made him a Word Bearer. It was a GW-stated fact that the Skulltakers were the Berzerkers of Kharadon. Forgeworld made them a World Eaters offshoot. Since there are retcons and side facts and mirror-fluff all over the place, I don't consider any of it "canon". At all. It is all fluff to me. Not canon. At all. Ironically, I don't think I've ever seen BL do a fluff retcon. In the case of the Skulltakers though they were repeatedly "consumed" by other warbands as their leaders were killed off. It is plausible that the Skulltakers (particularly by the time of the Legion of the Damned novel) had simply lost another warband leader to someone within the World Eaters and were now "World Eaters". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 I don't recall seeing them in the LotD Battle Story. In fact, the last story I saw them in was The Chapter's Due I believe, and before that, their last sighting both in GW and and BL was in the Ghoul Stars I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan the Lurker Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 They get a mention as one of the Chaos Chapters -- they are mentioned both as a Chapter and as part of the World Eaters -- taking part in the Cholercaust Crusade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verythrax Draconis Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 Well, in fact since geneseeds literally come and go in chaos warbands, several chaos marines must really have no clue about their true origins (not he's own, but the warband's). I don't think Berzerkers care for record-keeping, or even oral tradition :D And it's not like the Imperium writers were there, to be sure which chapter became which. They get reports from the populace, half-truths said by prisioners (or deliberated lies), and just sometimes they have the luck to get a trustworthy SM report - considering that the SM chapter got hold of real information, not the same lies, half truths or mistaken conclusions - they at least will report what they saw or hear, but it can be far from the real truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Kallozar Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 Funnily enough I had a thread very recently asking about the GW created warbands and if they have survived and made it into the new Dex. 30 renegade Chapters in one go seems a bit excessive to be honest, but anyhow are the Sons of Livos, Fire Reavers or Silver Guard mentioned at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 Funnily enough I had a thread very recently asking about the GW created warbands and if they have survived and made it into the new Dex. 30 renegade Chapters in one go seems a bit excessive to be honest, but anyhow are the Sons of Livos, Fire Reavers or Silver Guard mentioned at all? The Silver Guard were in the last CSM Dex. They went Traitor alongside the Sons of Vengeance. And I think they make up for the 30 Chapters with the fact that each Chapter was virtually wiped out before some of the survivors turned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoros Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 Any chance of a full list of the Chapters and their Traitor Names? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visitor13 Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 Any chance of a full list of the Chapters and their Traitor Names? http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Abyssal_Crusade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Colossus Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 Must admit, the whole thing doesn't seem as bad an idea as I first thought, ignoring the fluff inconsistencies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 IIRC according to the article on traitor Chapters only abour 50 Chapters have ever truned to Chaos in their entirety (or, I presume, their majority). So, I guess half of them turned during this never before heard of crusade. Where a single guy ordered around dozens of Space Mairnes Chapters. Also unheard of. Not good stuff. Ironically, I don't think I've ever seen BL do a fluff retcon. Say wha? It's called the "Horus Heresy" series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 Right, I forgot the Ultramarines becoming even bigger was a retcon. And "good" is an opinion. Some of us think it is "good", you don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visitor13 Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 Any chance of a full list of the Chapters and their Traitor Names? http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Abyssal_Crusade Apparently the Lexicanum list is missing the Lances of Pteros, who became the Lords of Decay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrashMan Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 25(30) Chapters lost in a single crusade? That far too many. More chapters than some foundings create.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan the Lurker Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 25(30) Chapters lost in a single crusade? That far too many. More chapters than some foundings create.... Considering that the 2nd Founding got retconned to 400 Chapters with most of them not making it to M41, I suspect most Foundings are far more than 20-30 Chapters anymore. Chapters get snuffed out far more often than people think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Captain Sharp Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 25(30) Chapters lost in a single crusade? That far too many. More chapters than some foundings create.... Considering that the 2nd Founding got retconned to 400 Chapters with most of them not making it to M41, I suspect most Foundings are far more than 20-30 Chapters anymore. Chapters get snuffed out far more often than people think. Completely agree with that. With the new Legion numbers, there would have to be pretty bad attrition for a base that started that large to not grow to way over 1 million marines in M41. The discussion of "canon" is interesting, though. Usually canon is discussed in universes that have established hierarchies of canon, like Star Wars and its G canon (the movies), T-canon (TV shows), and so on. GW has never tried to implement such a feature, instead using the idea of unreliable narrator for the universe as a whole. Because there is no established hierarchy, fans are left to establish their own. Someone above expressed theirs as GW>FW>BL. Personally I put more stock in BL>FF>GW/FW. The Black Library is the most extensive collection of fluff, and deals with the most in-depth discussion. Also, it's fluff written by professional writers, so I tend to find it generally better. Then comes Fantasy Flight. While they have taken some odd stances with the universe (the masses and accelerations of 40k starships, for instance) they have written a large amount of generally high quality fluff and some great overview pieces. Then comes the GW and FW tier. FW is down here because some of their IA books have been terrible, though they are getting much better recently. Also, I feel that some ideas coming out of FW would have been better off left undone. Again, that's all subjective. GW is definitely on bottom, however, as any fluff source that has heavily relied on Mat Ward is not going to be consistent with other fluff sources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 Personally, I hold it all equal since GW is the originator, BL has the most extensive fluff and Forgeworld has the most widely accepted. I don't hear FF a whole lot, but I do keep it in an equal stance. As far as the fluff, at least the Vorpal Swords made it out alive right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corsair Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 I can't get over how terrible the before and/or after names of some of these Chapters are. The Knights Excelsior?! Really, GW? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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