Hyaenidae Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 I can't get over how terrible the before and/or after names of some of these Chapters are. The Knights Excelsior?! Really, GW? It could be worse. It could have been The Knights Who Say Ekke Ekke Ekke Ekke Ptangya Ziiinnggggggg Ni Chapter. Their Chapter Master would look pretty gnarly, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corsair Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 Altar Brethren? Magma Hounds? Flylords? Hell, why would every single Chapter rename themselves? Did they form a committee to ensure there were no clashing words? "Damn it, we can't have Flylords AND Magma Flies, wanna fight about it?" I love the idea of the Abyssal Crusade in principal, but aspects of it are distinctly Wardian in how silly and overblown they are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan the Lurker Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 Altar Brethren? Magma Hounds? Flylords? Hell, why would every single Chapter rename themselves? Did they form a committee to ensure there were no clashing words? "Damn it, we can't have Flylords AND Magma Flies, wanna fight about it?" I love the idea of the Abyssal Crusade in principal, but aspects of it are distinctly Wardian in how silly and overblown they are They didn't. They were given an "Excommunicate Designation". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 I can't get over how terrible the before and/or after names of some of these Chapters are. The Knights Excelsior?! Really, GW? Granted The Knights Excelsior and some of the others were a bit naff but I thought some of the names were quite nifty (the Iron Drakes and the Lionguard, particularly). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 At least they didn't give them some overblown off the wall name like Astral Carcharadon so people wouldn't be stuck saying Space Sharks all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 I dunno, I quite like the Space Sharks' high gothic name. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 Astral Sharks. That's okay to me. But Carcharadons is a litte over the top. It's better than Space Sharks, I'll give you that but it doesn't flow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 In a galaxy where some guys call themselves Space Wolves, that's pretty hard to come with a ridiculous name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irbis Posted October 8, 2012 Author Share Posted October 8, 2012 Considering that the 2nd Founding got retconned to 400 Chapters with most of them not making it to M41, I suspect most Foundings are far more than 20-30 Chapters anymore. Chapters get snuffed out far more often than people think. Retconned where? :) IIRC, even Ultramarines has "only" 23, and given losses in Heresy and aftermath it is completely understandable... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareddm Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 My take on the changing of the chapter names is that, while only part of the chapter fell to chaos, they were able to wipe out the loyalist element of their original chapter, hence why they don't keep their original name. Only when a chapter falls in its entirety, which I believe is fairly rare, would it keep its original name. Considering that the 2nd Founding got retconned to 400 Chapters with most of them not making it to M41, I suspect most Foundings are far more than 20-30 Chapters anymore. Chapters get snuffed out far more often than people think. Retconned where? :) IIRC, even Ultramarines has "only" 23, and given losses in Heresy and aftermath it is completely understandable... Given the increased size of the legions, especially to the Ultramarines, and the fact that they suffered the fewest percentage loss of any chapter, many people are unwilling to believe that there were only around 23,000 UM left at the end of the Heresy. This would've been a loss of over 90%. Instead, it's more reasonable to believe that there were many more 2nd founding chapters, the vast majority of which never made it to M41 and were written out of history, some even having their names reused by later foundings. I'm always reminded of the scene in Prospero Burns, where the archeologists on Terra are so proud of have the complete works of William Shakespeare. All THREE plays! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 Considering that the 2nd Founding got retconned to 400 Chapters with most of them not making it to M41, I suspect most Foundings are far more than 20-30 Chapters anymore. Chapters get snuffed out far more often than people think. Retconned where? :) IIRC, even Ultramarines has "only" 23, and given losses in Heresy and aftermath it is completely understandable... In the Grey Knights 5th ed. codex, iirc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoros Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 Considering that the 2nd Founding got retconned to 400 Chapters with most of them not making it to M41, I suspect most Foundings are far more than 20-30 Chapters anymore. Chapters get snuffed out far more often than people think. Retconned where? :huh: IIRC, even Ultramarines has "only" 23, and given losses in Heresy and aftermath it is completely understandable... In the Grey Knights 5th ed. codex, iirc. Any chance of quoting that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 Considering that the 2nd Founding got retconned to 400 Chapters with most of them not making it to M41, I suspect most Foundings are far more than 20-30 Chapters anymore. Chapters get snuffed out far more often than people think. Retconned where? :huh: IIRC, even Ultramarines has "only" 23, and given losses in Heresy and aftermath it is completely understandable... In the Grey Knights 5th ed. codex, iirc. Any chance of quoting that? I'm afraid not. I don't have it to hand. I'm sure another brother will have the relevant data on them, though. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irbis Posted October 8, 2012 Author Share Posted October 8, 2012 I'm afraid not. I don't have it to hand. I'm sure another brother will have the relevant data on them, though. :) I read GK Codex and I'm pretty sure it's not there. Also, 90% losses seem to be perfectly in line with Calth and other post Heresy losses, other loyalist legions were explicitly stated to only be able to produce 1-2 more Chapters by canon (Wolves, Ravens and Fists in particular). Had there been 400 Chapters in 2nd Founding, Utramarines wouldn't just be majority, they would be 99% majority. But still, could have been retconed, I guess, would also like to know source ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hrvat Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 C:GK pg. 7 second paragraph, lines 10-11 Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irbis Posted October 8, 2012 Author Share Posted October 8, 2012 C:GK pg. 7 second paragraph, lines 10-11 It says 'amidst growing roster' of Chapters which can't be Second Founding as it was one time, sudden event, not something gradual. Maybe they meant third or fourth founding? Or even later one, as pretty much all it says is that GK got number 666 when there were around four hundred Chapters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 But doesn't the GK Codex have them popping up around the same time as the Second Founding? So if there were four hundred Chapters at the time of their being assigned a number, then that would mean that the Second Founding had 400 Chapters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verythrax Draconis Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 Maybe the chapters were numbered before inception, and with geneseed problems and whatnot, not all of them were "founded" in the end, ending with a number around 400... And anyway, GK's founding was secret - even if it was around the same time, they aren't part of the 2nd founding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 I don't know, keeping one of the moons of Jupiter popping back from the warp would seem like a hard thing to keep secret. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan the Lurker Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 Page 7 Codex: Grey Knights: At this time, the mighty Space Marine Legions were in the process of being separated into Chapters according to the precepts of the Codex Astartes. Much of the process of the Second Founding was being carried out at the direction of the newely formed Inquisition and was in turn overseen by those same lords who had left Terra with Malcador some years earlier. It was a simple task for them to include the Grey Knights amongst the growing roster of Space Marine Chapters, bestowing upon them the designation Chapter 666 - an oddity, as at the time, there were barely four hundred Space Marine Chapters commissioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irbis Posted October 9, 2012 Author Share Posted October 9, 2012 But doesn't the GK Codex have them popping up around the same time as the Second Founding? So if there were four hundred Chapters at the time of their being assigned a number, then that would mean that the Second Founding had 400 Chapters. No. They were founded as pretty much First Founding, before Horus even get to Terra. GK were supposed to be last chance weapon, made before anyone even started thinking about Codex Astartes or Chapters. What Kurgan quoted pretty much means some unspecified time later, when IoM had 400 Chapters, GK were made "public" by giving them number 666 on roster, even as huge differences between them and other Chapters were carefully hidden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verythrax Draconis Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Page 7 Codex: Grey Knights: At this time, the mighty Space Marine Legions were in the process of being separated into Chapters according to the precepts of the Codex Astartes. Much of the process of the Second Founding was being carried out at the direction of the newely formed Inquisition and was in turn overseen by those same lords who had left Terra with Malcador some years earlier. It was a simple task for them to include the Grey Knights amongst the growing roster of Space Marine Chapters, bestowing upon them the designation Chapter 666 - an oddity, as at the time, there were barely four hundred Space Marine Chapters commissioned. That's a retcon for sure, since the GK founding was known specifically as "The Secret Founding" :/ EDIT: Aha! In fact the original fluff was an "unregistered" founding just after the 3rd founding (ok, it wouldn't make sense with the new HH stuff, with the GKs formed around the Knights Errant) Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness, pg 247 - but it proves that I'm not crazy! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevak Dal Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Well, in fact since geneseeds literally come and go in chaos warbands, several chaos marines must really have no clue about their true origins (not he's own, but the warband's). Which personally I find sort of interesting, and flows well with the thought/belief that the Primarchs don't matter. I've considered a DIY warband of Chaos Space Marines who through the vagaries of the Eye of Terror, are over 100,000 years old. Not the individuals themselves mind you-but all the original Traitors from the Heresy of whatever Legions they came from, and have been fighting other warbands, recruiting new members from remnant human colonies from within the Eye, in a never ending series of conflicts that for them has been 100,000 years until they finally broke out of that particular pocket of the Eye. They know nothing of Primarchs, the Heresy or the Emperor. They don't have baggage. They see the Imperium of Man-and all other factions, as strong enemies. They basically have adapted an Ork Like mentality, war for the sake of war (and of course in the name of the gods), though prosecuted with far more professionalism and precision than any ork could do. Basically it would be an excuse for me to have the various elements I like from the various legion and warband backgrounds, with none of the stuff I dislike. And I'd paint them with the scales like alpha legion, but dark, rich purple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verythrax Draconis Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Well, in fact since geneseeds literally come and go in chaos warbands, several chaos marines must really have no clue about their true origins (not he's own, but the warband's). Which personally I find sort of interesting, and flows well with the thought/belief that the Primarchs don't matter. I've considered a DIY warband of Chaos Space Marines who through the vagaries of the Eye of Terror, are over 100,000 years old. Not the individuals themselves mind you-but all the original Traitors from the Heresy of whatever Legions they came from, and have been fighting other warbands, recruiting new members from remnant human colonies from within the Eye, in a never ending series of conflicts that for them has been 100,000 years until they finally broke out of that particular pocket of the Eye. They know nothing of Primarchs, the Heresy or the Emperor. They don't have baggage. They see the Imperium of Man-and all other factions, as strong enemies. They basically have adapted an Ork Like mentality, war for the sake of war (and of course in the name of the gods), though prosecuted with far more professionalism and precision than any ork could do. Basically it would be an excuse for me to have the various elements I like from the various legion and warband backgrounds, with none of the stuff I dislike. And I'd paint them with the scales like alpha legion, but dark, rich purple. Really nice sir! Power to you! Nice to see people going to those less explored niches ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 But doesn't the GK Codex have them popping up around the same time as the Second Founding? So if there were four hundred Chapters at the time of their being assigned a number, then that would mean that the Second Founding had 400 Chapters. No. They were founded as pretty much First Founding, before Horus even get to Terra. GK were supposed to be last chance weapon, made before anyone even started thinking about Codex Astartes or Chapters. What Kurgan quoted pretty much means some unspecified time later, when IoM had 400 Chapters, GK were made "public" by giving them number 666 on roster, even as huge differences between them and other Chapters were carefully hidden. Yeah but doesn't the Codex have them and the planet Titan disappearing into the Warp right before Horus reaches Terra? And then reappearing after the Siege? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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