The Abyssal Crusade?

[Kurgan the Lurker]

But doesn't the GK Codex have them popping up around the same time as the Second Founding? So if there were four hundred Chapters at the time of their being assigned a number, then that would mean that the Second Founding had 400 Chapters.

 

No. They were founded as pretty much First Founding, before Horus even get to Terra. GK were supposed to be last chance weapon, made before anyone even started thinking about Codex Astartes or Chapters. What Kurgan quoted pretty much means some unspecified time later, when IoM had 400 Chapters, GK were made "public" by giving them number 666 on roster, even as huge differences between them and other Chapters were carefully hidden.

 

 

The quote is pretty clear that the 2nd Founding was still underway when the GKs were created -- at least in terms of a Chapter -- and that 400 Chapters existed at that time.

[Kol Saresk]

Huh, why is it just now getting moved to the Chaos forums?

[The Colossus]

Huh, why is it just now getting moved to the Chaos forums?

 

Confused me too! It was probably because it's a bit of a general area concerning marines- the crusade is about (possibly tainted) loyalist Chapters , who go off to the EoT and become renegades. Both sides of the coin, as it were.

 

OT, the I understand the Grey Knights creation to have begun as probably an attempt to create a new legion, one utterly loyal to the Emp, and resistant to Chaos, but by the time they came back from the Warp, Robute had done his thing, and it was easier, given the number of Grey Knights to just formalise them as a chapter. The "Chapter 666" bit is probably a bit of old Terran superstition, referring to the devil.

[Kol Saresk]

More specifically, and ironically, the number is refers to an old superstition that existed at the time of Chistianity's founding that the numbers 3, 6 and 9 represent "something that is not whole, impure and a variety of other bad things" and simply used to say the devil fits in this category and so do any who follow him. It actually would have been better if they called it Chapter 777 since 5, 7 and 10 represent the exact opposite from 3, 6 and 9.

[The Colossus]

True, although 3 is also considered a holy number- i.e. the Holy Trinity.

 

Chapter 666 does sound cool for a Chapter that fights Daemons though.

 

Slightly-related, anyone know what number the Exorcists are?

 

It will be interesting to see if the Horus Heresy series actually goes beyond the Heresy and we actually see the Second Founding.

 

Would the increased numbers in a founding affect the "1 million Space Marines" fluff?

[Kol Saresk]

Don't know about the Exorcists. In the case of the "1 millions fluff" well I kind of agree with the earlier discussion on this very thread that there are probably still around 1,000 Chapters but only because the names keep getting recycled and stuff.

[The Colossus]

That's one hell of an attrition rate. Although compared to the Heresy...

 

Assuming that on AVERAGE each Legion had 100,000 marines, then there would have been 1.8 million Marines pre-heresy. Divide that roughly in 2, and you get 900,000 Marines on the loyalist side. That would have been a potential 900 chapters. If the 400 Chapter figure is correct, then around 500,000 marines were killed during the heresy. In what, seven years?

 

Note I've just used averages, so the figures are open to interpretation. I had a point to that- losing 30 chapters (30,000) is small fry compared to the Heresy really, going by Black Library numbers. Old fluff wise, the numbers would be comparable.

[Haranin]

That number is far to low.

 

In WWII the average German infantry division hit a 2000% replacement rate for the infantry. That is, for a notational TO&E of 15,000 men, of which say, 5,000 were infantry, those 5k infantry were replaced 20 times; so 100,000 men were killed, wounded or lived through the war in that unit, not counting admin, armor, artillery and supply.

 

So a 500,000 less loyal marines in the 9 loyal legions means after replacements you have that many left. You could easily have 20 marines killed for each marine left alive. The loyalist could have burned through 8 million space marines to end up with 400,000 left at the end.

 

Armor losses are just as brutal. The same tank could be knocked out killing the crew several times in one battle, but be fixed and sent back into the fight.

 

Typically in an Eastern front campaign, both sides would start out at TO&E armor levels, and after three months be left with 20-30 tanks in a division of 200. That doesn't mean they lost 180... it could mean 30 burned out and are permanent loses, 20 got sent back to the factory for heavy work, 100 in the short term repair yard and 30 sent to another division to make up losses. The nominal 200 tanks might have been each repaired 5-10 times before their end of campaign status.

 

In the HH, at least until Chaos really set in its corruption (Death Guard right before the siege) both sides could use each other's gear. It might be a loyalist predator at Ivanston III, traitor at V; captured at that big tank battle pre siege, repaired 5-10 times pre terra and then recycled a few more times at terra before being recaptured at the scouring.

[The Colossus]

That number is far to low.

 

In WWII the average German infantry division hit a 2000% replacement rate for the infantry. That is, for a notational TO&E of 15,000 men, of which say, 5,000 were infantry, those 5k infantry were replaced 20 times; so 100,000 men were killed, wounded or lived through the war in that unit, not counting admin, armor, artillery and supply.

 

So a 500,000 less loyal marines in the 9 loyal legions means after replacements you have that many left. You could easily have 20 marines killed for each marine left alive. The loyalist could have burned through 8 million space marines to end up with 400,000 left at the end.

 

Armor losses are just as brutal. The same tank could be knocked out killing the crew several times in one battle, but be fixed and sent back into the fight.

 

Typically in an Eastern front campaign, both sides would start out at TO&E armor levels, and after three months be left with 20-30 tanks in a division of 200. That doesn't mean they lost 180... it could mean 30 burned out and are permanent loses, 20 got sent back to the factory for heavy work, 100 in the short term repair yard and 30 sent to another division to make up losses. The nominal 200 tanks might have been each repaired 5-10 times before their end of campaign status.

 

In the HH, at least until Chaos really set in its corruption (Death Guard right before the siege) both sides could use each other's gear. It might be a loyalist predator at Ivanston III, traitor at V; captured at that big tank battle pre siege, repaired 5-10 times pre terra and then recycled a few more times at terra before being recaptured at the scouring.

 

Yeah, I get what you're saying, but we are talking post-humans who are stupendously hard to kill. 500,000 guardsmen is nothing- billions are available to replace them. A marine dies, and he's not just "replaced". Secondly as the heresy unfolds, recruitment is going to slow down, look at how Corax tried to speed up his recruitment and failed (admittedly not entirely his fault).

[Haranin]

Still, slow doesn't mean nonexistent.

 

It will be interesting to see what FW and the BL do with the numbers over the course of the books.

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah but it slowed down from several hundred(or as fast as homeworld allowed) to a much slower rate. Some planets probably even stopped as they switched from "Astartes Homeworld" to "Imperial/Traitor Fortressworld". Or like in the case of Nostramo, Prospero and Olympia, simply ceased to exist. The other thing to consider is also how long it normally takes an Astartes to actually be made. So now the very long process has fewer candidates. Not only that, but there is still the same percentage rate of success vs. failure. Which starts to lean more towards failure as you try to rush it.

 

Corax had the actually brilliant idea of creating a gene-seed that allowed for the range of candidates to be increased from those who had genetic compatibility with the gene-seed to just about everyone as well as how fast it would bond with and mature the host into a full grown Astartes and even give the Astartes skills and reflexes that normally took years of training to develop. And Omegon blew it all up. Even then, not every Legion had this capability. Only the Alpha Legion and the Sons of Horus, assuming Alpharius Omegon gave Horus a complete, untampered copy and Horus actually used it.

[The Colossus]

To echo what Kol said, you've also only got Traitor Legions using the accelerated recruitment process. Not loyalists, so at best they're getting the same level of recruits as before. This is unlikely to be the case, except perhaps the Ultras, who, although Calth is devastated, have got a bunch of Worlds from which to recruit. Similarly the Blood Angels might be ok, Baal is largely untouched through the Heresy right?

 

The Dark Angels recruitment, although ongoing, so far only seems to be giving Luther more recruits- i.e. more Fallen.

 

The Raven Guard have been covered.

 

The Salamanders were severely battered by Istvaan, and with no confirmed successors (two are postulated), we can surmise their recruitment is pretty bad over the rest of the heresy.

 

The Iron Hands lose a company and a Primarch- again, with only two confirmed successors, they are likely to have had a poor recruitment drive.

 

The Fists are obviously sending Marines out to fight, and clearly suffer in the Siege- they're one of the main defenders. Recruitment is unlikely to compensate for losses incurred.

 

We haven't heard enough about the Wolves and Scars, although the presence of only one Successor for the Wolves implies heavy losses and slow recruitment/