Ultragrit and VOTW

[Redbaron997]

So heres my question, all our CSM have the option to take the ultragrit and VOTLW upgrades. My question is which, if eithier, is worth it on your average CSMs?

 

So for a couple points everyone gets +1 attack and for another we get Hatred (SMs) and +1 Leadership. Both are nice upgrades no doubt but are they worth it for taking on all your troops? And if not what units would you take for each upgrades?

 

Since we dont have ATSKNF I think the +1 Leadership can be very helpful and since a good amount of enemies are SMs the hatred can be nice to.

 

I am not so convenced about the additional CCW, its a couple points for every model, some of them will die before combat most likely and with todays shooty age its possible some of them will not see close combat every game. The Champion has ultragrit anyways so I just dont see it being that vital.

[Sception]

I'm just not sure yet. ultragrit is very nice to have, if it were one point I'd call it a no brainer, but at two points its very hard to say. I think this is going to be one of those ongoing debates over the tenure of this book, assuming cultists and cult units don't just replace basic CSMs completely, the way cult units replaced basic marines in the previous book.

 

Having to pick a cult, and needing to spend an HQ to do it, may help that somewhat, but... well, despite all their new options, it still looks to me like Plagues and 'zerkers, maybe even noise marine, might outshine CSMs as harder troop options, while cultists seem to do the 'cheap numbers' thing better, so... I really don't know.

[minigun762]

The most important thing to decide is whether you want them to be assaulting the enemy. If so, both upgrades are worth it in my mind. If not, I'd leave them at home. I plan on running at least one squad of basic CSMs with 2x plasma and nothing else.

[Sception]

But if you're running them as a dedicated assault squad, the question then becomes not 'is the extra ccwep worth 2 points' but rather 'is the bolter worth 2 points'.

[minigun762]

But if you're running them as a dedicated assault squad, the question then becomes not 'is the extra ccwep worth 2 points' but rather 'is the bolter worth 2 points'.

 

How so? It's early and I'm not following.

[Sception]

instead of buying extra close combat weapons for 2 points, basic CSMs can choose to trade their bolters for extra CCWep's for free. So if you're going for a dedicated close combat squad, you can have bolt pistol & ccwep for 13 points, or ultragrit for 15, and then you have to ask yourself, "am I going to be running a lot? if so, is it worth two points a model to keep my bolter?"

 

And again, I'd be on the fence with that.

[minigun762]

Ahh! That explains it, I didn't know there was the option to do a free swap. Hmm that would change my opinion then.

[greatcrusade08]

personally i think thats awesome, you can create cheaper khrone cc nits by trading weapons rather than paying for the ccw.. 13 points a modle + MoK is awesome IMO

[Urauloth]

Yeah this is great if you're doing a khorne themed army.

 

For me, I'll be taking the full loadout on my existing squads, because I modeled them with a mix of weapons and I like them that way - for my basic all-purpose units the versatility is worth it. Whether or not future squads I make will get the same treatment I've yet to decide, I think I want to get hold of the codex, soak up some more discussion and theoryhammer and play a few games with my warband before I settle on anything.

 

As for VotLW, I'll be taking it a lot I expect. Most of the people in my area play some kind of space marine most of the time, but even against xenos that +1ld seems pretty great for 1pt/model.

 

16pts isn't a whole lot for a model with 4 attacks on the charge, hatred of loyalists and counterattack though. That khorne ccw squad is a tempting idea.

[Iron Sage]

I suspect the chaos marines will be fielded a lot in the future. They are now much more customizable and that alone is gold.

 

They are in the middle ground between cults and cultists. Sometimes (often I would say), you want something in the middle instead of the extremes.

 

Also, the new rules for marks simply makes this staple unit far better than previously if you take a mark.

[Verythrax Draconis]

I suspect the chaos marines will be fielded a lot in the future. They are now much more customizable and that alone is gold.

 

They are in the middle ground between cults and cultists. Sometimes (often I would say), you want something in the middle instead of the extremes.

 

Also, the new rules for marks simply makes this staple unit far better than previously if you take a mark.

 

Yeah, I don't know compared to the old dex, but from my knowledge on MEQ armies, the marks are an awesome deal - even the MoT can be interesting in certain cases. C'mon, by 2pts per model you have a mob in power armour! How cool is that?

[Subtle Discord]

I get the feeling they did it just right. 1pt for VOTLW makes it almost a no-brainer (the +1 Ld alone is very good, and I get more? Yes please!), but 2pts for the CCW forces you to think; if the CCW was 1pt it too would be a no-brainer. If you want the utility you need to pay for it. If they didn't add the Bolter swap for a CCW for free, I'd be ticked. But they did, so it's a solid mix that gives lots of options.

 

Finally, I can use my CCW + Bolt Pistol models as proper dedicated Combat troops, and get a 'it's cheaper' incentive. Odds are the saved points will get eaten by the mark/icon, but that's a good balance/trade-off for Undivided players like myself. Now my Combat troops can be 'Zerker-lite models. They might not perform as well, but the option is there. By including the CCW (and the cost) into the base Chaos Marine in the last codex, there was no reason to even consider these models; everyone had a Bolter. Now they actually exist as an option. Excellent!

 

For me, most of my Undivided Marines will get both if they will be 'pushing' squads. I usually field a 'hang back' rear guard squad, and they would be the ones I'd drop the CCW from for the savings. All of the squads that need to push into the thick of it, I just like having the option to charge with more effect and/or be that bit more of a threat to someone considering that last ditch charge attempt. Many matches tend to come down to such actions.

 

Even with the last codex I started modeling most of my Bolter squads with a healthy mix of bayonets and sidearms, so they look the part of having 2 CCWs and a Bolter. Besides, the Marine themselves is a second CCW, really. Would you want to be punched, kicked, or Bolter-whipped by a Marine? ... Didn't think so.

[minigun762]

The safest option would be to splurge on both upgrades, especially if its a Rhino squad. The flexibility to choose between assaulting or rapid firing is nice.

Heavy weapon or dual plasma squads will be treated like havocs for the most part.

As far as ccw + bp squads, I'm not yet convinced they are better than cult options, raptors or chosen.

[Killax]

It's great that it's there, thats a fact.

 

Now ask yourself these questions:

 

- Am I willing to invest into my troops who also can be filled up to the max for roughly the cost of half 2x 10 chaos space marines (with some upgrades)?

- What is the total plan of my army, shooty with a counter attack based strategy? Or am I a shooting army who also happens to be good in CC with just a mark?

 

Personally, again, I love it's there but do not intend to make a lot of use of the extra upgrades. Our troops and thus objective claiming units can be so dirt cheap we can load up in all the Elite, Fast and Heavy goodness.

 

Cheers,

[zyl-]

I would say VOTLW is almost needed to be competative. +1 leadership aside, the hatred for space marines means GK, BT, BA, DA, SW, and C:SM, right?

 

Since most of our problems are from GK and SW, hatred will be a great boon. I sort of also assume this will get FAQ'd soon to specifically state if the rule is for all space marines or just vanilla, but for now I'm taking it to mean all space marines.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I would say VOTLW is almost needed to be competative. +1 leadership aside, the hatred for space marines means GK, BT, BA, DA, SW, and C:SM, right?

 

Since most of our problems are from GK and SW, hatred will be a great boon. I sort of also assume this will get FAQ'd soon to specifically state if the rule is for all space marines or just vanilla, but for now I'm taking it to mean all space marines.

 

There's actually a little Designer's Note call-out box in the codex that specifies that any reference of Hatred or Preferred Enemy to Space Marines includes, and it lists them, the units from Codex: Space Marines, Black Templars, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, and Space Wolves. So no FAQ required.

[zyl-]

Well that's a little fantastic, then. I will very happily pay 1 point per model to poop on my enemies with rerolls.

[Smurfalypse]

I think it depends on how you want to use the squad. Minigun has it right that if you have a unit in a Rhino you almost have to take both VotLW and ultragrit, if you have a unit with a heavy weapon and plasmagun or two plasmagun you probably do not need the extra CCW and can disregard it. If you have a unit that is 100% assault oriented, then you can probaly ignore the bolter if ya wanted and just take the CCW for free.

 

Personally, I like my CSMs mobile a little bit. I will leave the ground pounding to other units (Cultists) and have all of my CSMs upgraded with both. That is a personal preference but it is how I have gotten used to using them the last 5 years, so will be odd for me not to have that beloved versatility that I have grown to love.

[minigun762]

Giving this more thought, I think a variant of the 5ed standard CSM squad with 2x melta and power fist in a rhino is your best option for both upgrades.

In 6ed the fist is replaced by sword and melta bombs. I want a sword because 1) melta bombs and krak grenades cover vehicles and walkers and MCs and 2) sword 's ap3 best supports VotLW's bonus.

For specials, you could keep the melta for a well rounded squad but I will try flamers because 3 flamer hits = 1 melta shot against basic marines, 2) they are grossly superior against light infantry and 3) they are strong on overwatch which supports the value of ultra grit.

 

Basically it's win:win whether I am assaulted or get the charge myself.

[Iron Sage]

Giving this more thought, I think a variant of the 5ed standard CSM squad with 2x melta and power fist in a rhino is your best option for both upgrades.

In 6ed the fist is replaced by sword and melta bombs. I want a sword because 1) melta bombs and krak grenades cover vehicles and walkers and MCs and 2) sword 's ap3 best supports VotLW's bonus.

For specials, you could keep the melta for a well rounded squad but I will try flamers because 3 flamer hits = 1 melta shot against basic marines, 2) they are grossly superior against light infantry and 3) they are strong on overwatch which supports the value of ultra grit.

 

Basically it's win:win whether I am assaulted or get the charge myself.

 

I too, find that flamers are very good weapons now in 6ed. Obviously they have very good overwatch. I also happen to think that they are not that shabby against marines or equalent either. Your going to fail some of those saves after all, and flamers brings a lot of hits to the table.

[Brother Ambroz]

I must've missed this "Ultragrit" when I read the codex, what is it? Like truegrit? I don't see it as an upgrade on any of the scanned pages I have saved....

[Rain]

It's a slang word for bolter + BP + CCW. It comes from the fact that back in 3rd edition there was such a thing as "true grit" which allowed space wolves and plague marines treat a bolter as a CCW although they didn't get a bonus charging attack. Eventually GW just started letting people take Bolter/BP/CCW which was basically true grit + extra charge attack hence "ultragrit".

[Ifrit446]

I must've missed this "Ultragrit" when I read the codex, what is it? Like truegrit? I don't see it as an upgrade on any of the scanned pages I have saved....

 

From what I understand, Ultragrit is just a nickname for carrying both Bolter and Pistol/Close combat weapon...IF I'm getting this right

[Brother Ambroz]

Yeah figured it had something to do with the old true grit but hadn't heard the term before.

[Bearingtheword]

Right now I'm still playing with the points but I'm thinking that I'll be for sure using both. VOTLW is a no-brainer in my opinion, and having the versatility of both solid ranged and CC is a great thing.

 

~BtW