Rhinos and new Chaos

[minigun762]

The new metagame is significantly different than it was before when transports were king.

Are you still planning on going mechanized, or maybe switching to foot slogging or a mix?

[the jeske]

I would not touch a rhino ,unless I was forced to by scenario rules[deadly ground all non transported dudes take an ap1 str 2 hit at the end of both players turn] . the 2 extra marines are more important then having a transport that doesnt let you charge/shot if you are moving/moving too fast/embarked.

[Verythrax Draconis]

When toying with list ideas, I'm not feeling compelled to get rhinos, specially with the possibility to make 20-strong squads. But I think I'll try them on one or another unit.

[Captain Idaho]

Well, options at least. If you got other vehicles to be attacked/take concentration away from opponent's, then a Rhino is pretty good. After all, you can get 18" across the board first turn!

 

There doesn't need to be many Rhinos in an army any more, but I wouldn't write them off completely.

[--eFTy-->]

What's the point of 20 man squads unless you get Fabius Bile or Huron to infiltrate them? They don't get any extra special weapons beyond the first two, and marks are now payed per model. The only benefit is the icon cost is cheaper per model, but the points cost will still be huge. Most of the time, it's better to just get 2 squads of 10.

 

Rhinos can now move 18" per turn (including flat out). I think they're still worth it for flanking units. Also, a Rhino with a havoc launcher is 47 points - look at as the poor man's razorback. In the end, most of the CSM codex is the poor man's loyalist stuff...

[the jeske]

which vehicles are you going to use in a chaos list at how many points and for which builds ?

because outside of trying to build a LR rush , non of the one in the codex seem optimal . the old ones pred/vindi/defiler/dread are more or less the same [dread got better , but at the same time walkers got worse in this edition] and the fiends wont fit in to an army unless 2k pts are played . Runing rhinos at 1500 makes no sense because there wont be any other vehicles in the list and when more points are played rather then buying 3-4 rhinos it is better to buy a 3ed fiend or start a 3ed unit of havocks.

[Iron Sage]

I would not touch a rhino ,unless I was forced to by scenario rules[deadly ground all non transported dudes take an ap1 str 2 hit at the end of both players turn] . the 2 extra marines are more important then having a transport that doesnt let you charge/shot if you are moving/moving too fast/embarked.

 

Hmm, what about a list including (I am thinking of testing this one, or approximatly something like this) landraider with a few termies and lord, 2 defilers, a helbrute, mauler fiend and 2 squads of basic marines in rhinos? I am thinking that in this sort of list, there will be so many threats moving forward that it might be a pest-kholera scenario to shoot the transports or not. Depending on points, I would also like to add more to this sort of list. Obviously, I am ignoring fliers here.

 

Well, options at least. If you got other vehicles to be attacked/take concentration away from opponent's, then a Rhino is pretty good. After all, you can get 18" across the board first turn!

 

There doesn't need to be many Rhinos in an army any more, but I wouldn't write them off completely.

 

Thats exactly my thinking with my "Preassure" Test list. Several fast moving armoured threats.

[--eFTy-->]

Nobody's saying to buy 4 rhinos. But one or two won't hurt, if you're taking for certain purposes and know how to use them. I still think a 5 man unit with bolters, pistols and chainswords, a meltagun and a rhino are decent flankers.

[Iron Sage]

which vehicles are you going to use in a chaos list at how many points and for which builds ?

because outside of trying to build a LR rush , non of the one in the codex seem optimal . the old ones pred/vindi/defiler/dread are more or less the same [dread got better , but at the same time walkers got worse in this edition] and the fiends wont fit in to an army unless 2k pts are played . Runing rhinos at 1500 makes no sense because there wont be any other vehicles in the list and when more points are played rather then buying 3-4 rhinos it is better to buy a 3ed fiend or start a 3ed unit of havocks.

 

I did notice that the Tri-Las Predator is far cheaper. I always felt like a retard fielding it for fluff reasons in 5ed, but I am not so sure its bad now.

 

What do you think?

[Feste]

Well, options at least. If you got other vehicles to be attacked/take concentration away from opponent's, then a Rhino is pretty good. After all, you can get 18" across the board first turn!

 

There doesn't need to be many Rhinos in an army any more, but I wouldn't write them off completely.

 

Thats exactly my thinking with my "Preassure" Test list. Several fast moving armoured threats.

I'm with you both on this one. It's a lot harder to stunlock vehicles now, so those transports can do what they need and then explode, but they will get you there.

[Sception]

Hmm, what about a list including (I am thinking of testing this one, or approximatly something like this) landraider with a few termies and lord, 2 defilers, a helbrute, mauler fiend and 2 squads of basic marines in rhinos? I am thinking that in this sort of list, there will be so many threats moving forward that it might be a pest-kholera scenario to shoot the transports or not. Depending on points, I would also like to add more to this sort of list. Obviously, I am ignoring fliers here

 

Nowhere near enough troops for an army that's already pushing 2,000 points. your opponent can point 2 FOC's worth of more points efficient heavy support at your rhino squads, and often as not at that point you'd be playing for a draw at best.

 

Mostly, I just don't think you can run a land raider deathstar and a bunch of other expensive vehicles at the same time. One or the other, imo, unless you're playing like 3k points, in which case take whatever you want.

 

If you're taking multiples of the new (or old) daemon engines, then sure, a couple rhinos could be helpful for target saturation. In a land raider force, though, well rhinos and land raiders aren't typically eating fire from the same weapons, so I'm not sure how worthwhile that would be.

[Iron Sage]

Hmm, what about a list including (I am thinking of testing this one, or approximatly something like this) landraider with a few termies and lord, 2 defilers, a helbrute, mauler fiend and 2 squads of basic marines in rhinos? I am thinking that in this sort of list, there will be so many threats moving forward that it might be a pest-kholera scenario to shoot the transports or not. Depending on points, I would also like to add more to this sort of list. Obviously, I am ignoring fliers here

 

Nowhere near enough troops for an army that's already pushing 2,000 points. your opponent can point 2 FOC's worth of more points efficient heavy support at your rhino squads, and often as not at that point you'd be playing for a draw at best.

 

Mostly, I just don't think you can run a land raider deathstar and a bunch of other expensive vehicles at the same time. One or the other, imo.

 

I am going to see what I can come up with for 1500, 1850 and 2K. But your probably right in that I shall have to refine my idea severely.

 

This is never the less, the foundation of my idea of what I intend to test :D

[the jeske]

Nobody's saying to buy 4 rhinos. But one or two won't hurt, if you're taking for certain purposes and know how to use them. I still think a 5 man unit with bolters, pistols and chainswords, a meltagun and a rhino are decent flankers.

 

and what are those 2 or 1 going to do . you get blown up on hull points faster then you were in 5th ed .

and what do 5 man csm units with a flamer do . they bounce of tacticals , not to mention stuff like GH . A single flamer isnt effective even against t4 horde and it has a long down time [if you move too far cant use it] . If this unit is taken to hide and try to get line breaker , the ally demons in form of horrors or a plaguebearers squad does it much better .

 

 

so those transports can do what they need and then explode, but they will get you there.

ok . so wer are runing fewer tank/transports or targets which have the same priority as them [no longer 2 DPS , fewer rhinos etc] . stuff dies faster now , due to hull points , then it did in 5th , when you pop smokes . If you move up to grab objective set up tar pits your not shoting[rhino moved too fast] or the shoting is ineffective. If you get stuned and go out it is as if you were a stuned tank . if you were in a transport you cant charge . now if someone uses a hammer unit [loyalist land raider full of killy stuff] then it is a bit different although still has its own problems due to necrons . taking a rhino makes no sense it will give out first blood too easy , it doesnt make you move faster or shot better unless you get turn 1 and due to hull points rhino wall are no longer as tough as they were in 5th . worse while loyalist , due to have tacticals work, can find some good sides in runing a rhino , we dont . We are like SW a short range shoty army and it is better to fire plasma at full BS then drive around and hope that 2 rhinos will live longer then they should .

[Seahawk]

I always used Rhinos and I'll probably continue to do so...and win a lot, despite the jeske's misgivings ;). *shrug*

 

I did notice that the Tri-Las Predator is far cheaper.

I've been using a pair too because they are superior to other choices, high-five! Yep, it's dropped to its lowest point value...ever, I believe. In 2nd it was ridiculously priced (but then everything was), in 3rd it was 145, and in 4th it was 165 (right? the SM version has been). Now that it's down to 140, I expect to see plenty of chaos predators out and about this edition.

[Iron Sage]

I always used Rhinos and I'll probably continue to do so...and win a lot, despite the jeske's misgivings ;). *shrug*

 

I did notice that the Tri-Las Predator is far cheaper.

I've been using a pair too because they are superior to other choices, high-five! Yep, it's dropped to its lowest point value...ever, I believe. In 2nd it was ridiculously priced (but then everything was), in 3rd it was 145, and in 4th it was 165 (right? the SM version has been). Now that it's down to 140, I expect to see plenty of chaos predators out and about this edition.

 

Good to see I was not alone in that "act" (absurdly, it often actually did okay despite the math), so "High-five" indeed ;)

 

Yes it seems like a good choice now even from a min-max point of view :) This pleases me, as my Predator is by far my favorite model to be honest (I am not a good painter but its definatly the most aestethically pleasing model I have painted ever)

 

Edit: Frontal armour 13 is actually surprisingly tough in 6ed. I had 2 Leman Russ and a psyker squad pounding mine in the last battle I played, and all they did was make me lose a hullpoint...

[--eFTy-->]

Being flankers, they won't be targeted by the whole enemy army, so they don't die as fast. They also get more terrain in the way, often getting a 4+ or even 3+ cover (and when there's none, there's still smoke). I also said meltagun, not flamer. That's often quite handy to take off the last HP off something, or maybe blow up rear support vehicles. They also get 15 attacks on the charge (16 now with champion). They do good vs somewhat depleted tactical squads or any combat squad or stuff like devastators.

[greatcrusade08]

its all about usage.. with the new flexible builds for CSm squads the rhino offers a haven for shooty units (those without the ccw upgrade)

dual plasmaguns in rhino seems a safe cheap option.

 

if your taking the ccw option (especially if trading bolter for ccw to save costs) then id footslog, maybe with cultists meatshields

 

the new dex is shaping up to be a real peach, i for one will not start throwing out definitive yay or nays to things like rhinos.. every dog has its day after all

[minigun762]

I mentioned this in the Khorne section but I think weaker Rhinos will lead to more Raider usage. Cult troops still work in a raider due to the need for <10 guys to get most goodies and still support an HQ but CSMs can't.

You might see bolter or ultragrit CSMs in Rhinos for rapid fire goodness like last edition

[greatcrusade08]

i think we will see monogod armies with a varied mix of troop types tbh.

for example khorne armies will probably have Khârn and zerks in a raider, cultists and CSMs with pistol/ccw. Probably not many rhinos used

 

i think nurgle armies will use more rhinos, thier cult troops dont care about the charge

[Lord Ragnarok]

Debates like these really need vetting on the fields of battle (gameboard). We should have data from games already with other armies still using rhinos and extrapolate what that may mean for chaos. It appears to me that armor saturation is the way to go with troops(as mentioned) built for bolter dakka and resistant to being charged (ultra grit).

[Ifrit446]

I'm usually not a fan of Rhinos seeing as how the Loyalist Razorback is far superior in my opinion. But that won't stop me from taking advantage of them.

 

My plan is to field Huron or Ahriman (or get lucky on the Warlord table) to infiltrate some elite squads in their rhinos behind enemy lines. In my experiences, it's much easier to hide a Rhino than hide a full 10-man squad ;)

[Seahawk]

Exactly. I don't see how "everything is changing" with the squads...it's pretty much the same as before but with cooler options.

 

My battlefield experience has told me that rhinos are still a godsend in all the scenarios.

[Iron Sage]

Exactly. I don't see how "everything is changing" with the squads...it's pretty much the same as before but with cooler options.

 

My battlefield experience has told me that rhinos are still a godsend in all the scenarios.

 

Yupp, I think Rhinos will be good in some lists and bad in others. Target saturation will still be an issue if you field something else that is actually scary, with a damage potential, that is also scuttling forward towards the enemy...

[Jacinda]

Rhinos have not changed. They still do what they did before. They will get your mid-ranged dakka across the board and then they go away in turn 2 or 3. They are a hindrance for your CC troops (unless you plan on not assaulting until turn 3 at the earliest). If you expect anything more from them than a 35 point pavise, you may be a little disappointed in their performance.

 

They are tools and when used correctly, they perform well.

[Iron Sage]

Rhinos have not changed. They still do what they did before. They will get your mid-ranged dakka across the board and then they go away in turn 2 or 3. They are a hindrance for your CC troops (unless you plan on not assaulting until turn 3 at the earliest). If you expect anything more from them than a 35 point pavise, you may be a little disappointed in their performance.

 

They are tools and when used correctly, they perform well.

 

And I am leaning towards you being right :)